Quest for mold-resistant strains, Hawaii outdoor greenhouse grow

[PurpleGunRack]

Thanks for the tip. Platinum hadn't come up on my radar because I couldn't find any terpene profiles for it. That could be because terpinolene isn't dominant, and that's what I was focusing on.

Platinum Jelly is a 50/50 hybrid.

This is the best terpene profile I could find for Platinum Jelly, showing significant ocimene and pinene. There's only a trace amount of terpinolene. So this is very interesting... a case where there are significant pine terpenes, but not terpinolene. First really I've seen of this.

There appear to be several phenos of Platinum Jelly, with at least one having terpinolene dominant. I just can't find other terpene profiles, nor any information about the known phenotypes. Some phenos could have either indica or sativa effects, while one or more may have a balanced combination.

Platinum is UW Hashplant X Perma Frost.

Platinum Jelly is a Indica leaning hybrid, the effect is definitely not sativa, all plants I've grown of it were full on mind and body melt, extremely powerful and amazing effect
Terps are mostly baked goods and/or gas, but some phenos are like a sherbet ice mouth feel with a faint fruit taste.

There are lots of Platinum crosses available. Platinum Jelly is just one of many nice Platinum crosses, all Platinum crosses I've grown were 100% mold free, while other plants got mold in the same grow.

Sugar Cane (Platinum X Slurricane) is getting quite popular among outdoor growers in Thailand, also one of the few strains where Platinum is the mom, so it should produce more Platinum dominant plants than the strains where Platinum is the dad.

Many growers have experience with high mold resistance in Platinum strains.
I would always put more sway into practical experience than theory and numbers (even if you're lucky enough to find a representative population size from a reliable source there are still many unknown genetic and environmental factors that affects mold resistance).

But really, the only valid test is growing it out extensively in your specific microclimate (which any grow setup actually is) and see what happens, and then breed with the best phenos to create your own crosses and a perpetual supply of free seeds

Grand Daddy Purple (indica dominant)

The one from Grand Daddy Genetics has mediocre mold resistance at best.
You might be able to find a nice clone that has decent mold resistance but if grown from seed, you'll be disappointed (on more factors than the mold resistance).
Biggest tease strain I've ever grown

 

[cbdhemp808]

Platinum is UW Hashplant X Perma Frost.

Platinum Jelly is a Indica leaning hybrid, the effect is definitely not sativa, all plants I've grown of it were full on mind and body melt, extremely powerful and amazing effect

I'm not at all doubting that it's a great strain, and thanks for pointing it out. It's a 50/50 with both indica and sativa effects. Some phenos could show a bit more of one or the other effects.

Terps are mostly baked goods and/or gas, but some phenos are like a sherbet ice mouth feel with a faint fruit taste.

It seems to me that virtually everyone in the cannabis world right now, including breeders, rely on experience and subjective interpretation of odor, taste, and perceived effects. Seed sellers rarely even talk about phenos. Terpene profiles are usually not provided.

I totally appreciate that people have their experiences of particular plants that they have grown, and buds they have consumed, from whatever breeder and seed seller they acquired the seed from.

That said, terpene profiles are sort of like fingerprints of the phenotypes. Yes, there can be some variation based on the grow of the pheno, but mainly only if there are environmental stresses. That's my understanding.

So, this is why I'm focusing on terpene profiles.

There are lots of Platinum crosses available. Platinum Jelly is just one of many nice Platinum crosses, all Platinum crosses I've grown were 100% mold free, while other plants got mold in the same grow.

Do you mean bud rot, leaf mold, or both? These are different organisms. Even PM and leaf spot are different, and one can show up while the others don't. The HI-BISCUS pheno that I'm growing, from Humboldt Seed Company is a 50/50 with sativa effects. It's 100% bud rot resistant, which is stellar in my super fungus/mold prone environment here. HI-BISCUS, however, is not 100% leaf mold resistant.

Sugar Cane (Platinum X Slurricane) is getting quite popular among outdoor growers in Thailand, also one of the few strains where Platinum is the mom, so it should produce more Platinum dominant plants than the strains where Platinum is the dad.

Very interesting. I found one terpene profile for it, very similar to the one I showed above for Platinum Jelly. Once again, the presence of significant amounts of ocimene and pinene, but not terpinolene.

Many growers have experience with high mold resistance in Platinum strains.

Bud rot, leaf mold, or both? I'm in a warm, wet tropical environment, with a heavy load of mold and fungus spores in the air. My greenhouses are literally little pockets of sunlight surrounded by jungle and huge tropical trees.

I would always put more sway into practical experience than theory and numbers (even if you're lucky enough to find a representative population size from a reliable source there are still many unknown genetic and environmental factors that affects mold resistance).

Due to the severity of the fungus/mold problem in my location, I'm attempting to move more toward the known and away from the unknown/just-try-it-out way of doing things.

Clearly, it's known that "pure" sativas, and tropical sativas, are more bud rot resistant, and I think generally accepted that a marker for this is terpinolene and the pine terpenes. High amounts of terpinolene are generally associated with sativas (Durban Poison, Trainwreck, etc.) Again, terpene lab tests are like fingerprints of the phenotype. This is something that can actually be measured accurately, just like cannabinoids. A lot of growers don't have access to this type of testing, so it's not in their tool kit.

Having a terpene profile for a pheno moves us away from the unknown to the known. Yes, there can be some variation in the profile depending on how the pheno was grown; however, given more-or-less ideal growing conditions, you'll get pretty much the same profile. Probably the most variation will be in resin production, meaning you'll get some variation in the amounts of the terpenes, overall, but not too much variation in the ratios.

The best case scenario is this: Find a strain that is promising based on available terpene profiles. Then find a high-quality seed line source for the strain. Then ask to see their terpene profiles for the known phenos. Terpene profiles will show info about: odor, taste, fungus & mold resistance, medicinal value, and effects (indica/sativa). The profiles will also show total terpenes—the higher the better, because this implies overall resin production. The higher the resin at harvest time, the greater the off-gassing of fungus-killing terpenes.

Terpinolene and the other pine terpenes (pinene, terpinene, ocimene, terpineol) are generally known as anti-fungal.

But really, the only valid test is growing it out extensively in your specific microclimate (which any grow setup actually is) and see what happens, and then breed with the best phenos to create your own crosses and a perpetual supply of free seeds

Agreed. The only way to confirm the terpenes in the pheno that you're growing is to have it tested.

I haven't done any breeding yet, but would love to sometime in the future. For now, I'm reliant on clones... what I call N-generation clones... clones of clones.

The one from Grand Daddy Genetics has mediocre mold resistance at best.
You might be able to find a nice clone that has decent mold resistance but if grown from seed, you'll be disappointed (on more factors than the mold resistance).
Biggest tease strain I've ever grown

Grand Daddy Purple is a popular strain, so I think it just depends on the breeder. The reason I'm considering it is because of its high terpinolene content, and also from reports of it being fungus/mold resistant.

The bottom line is, for any potentially great strain "X" that's supposedly highly bud rot resistant, one needs to find a high-quality source for the seed line, and then grow out the seed and see what phenos are produced, and then focus on the pheno that's the best bet for the bud rot resistance. This is where it really helps to have information about the known phenos, and terpene profiles for the known phenos. From my experience thus far, it's somewhat rare that a breeder will have complete information about the known phenos, and even more rare for them to have terpene profiles for the phenos.

In the case of the Humboldt Dream and HI-BISCUS that I'm growing, Humboldt Seed Company is specifically breeding for bud rot resistance. This is a huge plus... stable seed line that's been bred for fungus/mold resistance.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Just a shout out to @PurpleGunRack for mentioning Platinum Jelly strain as being very fungus/mold resistant.

I've been cruising for months on the terpinolene-dominant vibe for bud rot resistant sativas, and significant amounts of terpinolene for indicas and 50/50s. (I even researched Atomic Northern Lights to be terpinolene-dominant, and advertised as indica, but on closer inspection... it looks like there could be 7 known phenos, of which only 2 of those are indica, and 3 being 50/50. Plus it's an old strain, so... if I try that one out, I'll be pheno hunting. It could be that only the sativa phenos are terpinolene-dominant.)

Platinum Jelly and Sugarcane show significant amounts of ocimene and pinene, but not terpinolene. They are both 50/50 hybrids.

So, I'll be on the lookout for sativa-dominant and indica-dominant strains/phenos that have significant amounts of ocimene and pinene, but lower terpinolene. So far I haven't seen that, so this may just be a 50/50 phenomenon... we'll see.

 

[Fenderbender]

So what's your season like? weather & temp wise?
The big problem you have is high humidity, lots of flora & lots of stuff in the air that can catch on to plants but that's kinda all throughout your grow season?
Isn't there something that's been imported a long time ago and has adapted to the region? go cut a cut from that
But what I'm getting at if you can find something that is resistant to the moulds you can happily bloom out a plant Sun & temperature wise?
Cause for me I think it's the sudden change in conditions, warm & dry & low humidity in August, to high humidity and things being 15 to 20°c colder in September.
Which is what makes the plants weak and susceptible, so I'm wondering is that the same battle tactic? Strains high in those terps would fair better? But well anything that needs to flower long is not for here as when those are in their bud building period there's not any oomph to the Sun here.

 

[cbdhemp808]

So what's your season like? weather & temp wise?

Lots of sun and lots of rain throughout the year. 80-100 in per year. Nov. and Dec. are the most wet. Spring/Summer temps are mid 70s at night to mid-to-high 80s day. Fall/Winter, 70° or high 60s night, 64° would be a cold night, high of low 80s in the day. High humidity almost all the time.

The big problem you have is high humidity, lots of flora & lots of stuff in the air that can catch on to plants but that's kinda all throughout your grow season?

yes. year round grow season. just less sunlight in the fall/winter, due to the angle of the sun.

Isn't there something that's been imported a long time ago and has adapted to the region? go cut a cut from that

There are a lot of people growing around here, and growing some classic Hawaiian stuff. I know some growers, but I don't have any close friends that I can get cuttings or seed from. I looked for Hawaii seed sellers online and didn't find anything that looked trustworthy. So then I found Humboldt Dream and HI-BISCUS, so I've pretty much got the indica and the 50/50 covered, but I'm always looking to improve.

But what I'm getting at if you can find something that is resistant to the moulds you can happily bloom out a plant Sun & temperature wise?

I can grow anything, anytime, in my greenhouses. Plants do grow better in the spring and summer due to more sun exposure. But they grow pretty well in the fall/winter, too. I can veg over-winter to get some size, then flower in the spring.

Cause for me I think it's the sudden change in conditions, warm & dry & low humidity in August, to high humidity and things being 15 to 20°c colder in September.
Which is what makes the plants weak and susceptible, so I'm wondering is that the same battle tactic? Strains high in those terps would fair better? But well anything that needs to flower long is not for here as when those are in their bud building period there's not any oomph to the Sun here.

The battle tactic here is to find exceptionally high, natural bud rot resistance. HI-BISCUS is in that category, which is great for a 50/50, but I'm looking for a fast-flowering sativa-dominant. I'm focusing on high terpinolene as the marker for bud rot resistance. I have some sativa possibles, for example the Slymer cut of Chernobyl, which has a fairly short flowering time for a sativa, or Super Lemon Haze, which has longer flowering time (but still not super long). Humboldt Seed Company likely has some solid sativas, for example they have a Trainwreck with 60-day flowering time. Sugar Black Rose is another (sativa pheno, possibly 60 days flowering). The SBR sativa pheno would actually be easy to hunt down, because the other 2 phenos are indica. Lately I've been tuning in to Amnesia Haze... great "all bud" type structure, but long flowering time. Another possible is Jack The Ripper, with a shorter flowering time and evidence that it's terpinolene-dominant. (By the way, Chernobyl is Jack The Ripper x Trainwreck. The Slymer cut of Chernobyl, as an S1, is almost guaranteed to contain lots of terpinolene.)

For indica, there's Grand Daddy Purple, if I can find the best source for those seeds. Humboldt CSI might be the best pick. I'm also looking into Northern Lights #5 a bit more now, which is indica dominant and contains significant terpinolene. In fact, I'm seeing now that it's reported to be terpinolene-dominant, although I can't find an actual terpene profile for it.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Lots of sun and lots of rain throughout the year. 80-100 in per year. Nov. and Dec. are the most wet. Spring/Summer temps are mid 70s at night to mid-to-high 80s day. Fall/Winter, 70° or high 60s night, 64° would be a cold night, high of low 80s in the day. High humidity almost all the time.

yes. year round grow season. just less sunlight in the fall/winter, due to the angle of the sun.

There are a lot of people growing around here, and growing some classic Hawaiian stuff. I know some growers, but I don't have any close friends that I can get cuttings or seed from. I looked for Hawaii seed sellers online and didn't find anything that looked trustworthy. So then I found Humboldt Dream and HI-BISCUS, so I've pretty much got the indica and the 50/50 covered, but I'm always looking to improve.


I can grow anything, anytime, in my greenhouses. Plants do grow better in the spring and summer due to more sun exposure. But they grow pretty well in the fall/winter, too. I can veg over-winter to get some size, then flower in the spring.


The battle tactic here is to find exceptionally high, natural bud rot resistance. HI-BISCUS is in that category, which is great for a 50/50, but I'm looking for a fast-flowering sativa-dominant. I'm focusing on high terpinolene as the marker for bud rot resistance. I have some sativa possibles, for example the Slymer cut of Chernobyl, which has a fairly short flowering time for a sativa, or Super Lemon Haze, which has longer flowering time (but still not super long). Humboldt Seed Company likely has some solid sativas, for example they have a Trainwreck with 60-day flowering time. Sugar Black Rose is another (sativa pheno, possibly 60 days flowering). The SBR sativa pheno would actually be easy to hunt down, because the other 2 phenos are indica. Lately I've been tuning in to Amnesia Haze... great "all bud" type structure, but long flowering time. Another possible is Jack The Ripper, with a shorter flowering time and evidence that it's terpinolene-dominant. (By the way, Chernobyl is Jack The Ripper x Trainwreck. The Slymer cut of Chernobyl, as an S1, is almost guaranteed to contain lots of terpinolene.)

For indica, there's Grand Daddy Purple, if I can find the best source for those seeds. Humboldt CSI might be the best pick. I'm also looking into Northern Lights #5 a bit more now, which is indica dominant and contains significant terpinolene. In fact, I'm seeing now that it's reported to be terpinolene-dominant, although I can't find an actual terpene profile for it.

I grew Jack the Ripper for the outdoor season of 2022. If I remember correctly I did get a bit of budrot.
I'll go back and take a look.

Edit: Yup. She had a bit of mould on a main cola, and scattered bits around the plant by October 7th. It was an unusually long and bright season, but around then we were getting light rain and foggy mornings.
Lemony fruity taste, a bit racier of a high than I prefer.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I grew Jack the Ripper for the outdoor season of 2022. If I remember correctly I did get a bit of budrot.
I'll go back and take a look.

Edit: Yup. She had a bit of mould on a main cola, and scattered bits around the plant by October 7th. It was an unusually long and bright season, but around then we were getting light rain and foggy mornings.
Lemony fruity taste, a bit racier of a high than I prefer.

Thanks. Do you remember any pine/skunk scent?

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Thanks. Do you remember any pine/skunk scent?

Slight skunk. I don't remember any pine.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Greetings Growmies and SIPsters,

I built another Triforce SIP today... didn't take very long at all. I'll time it next time. This was a bucket I had used for a different dome, so it already had the drain hole in it.

I'm also in the middle of making a 15 gallon batch of my SIP soil mix... 1/3 compost soil, 1/3 coco coir, 1/3 fresh worm castings, plus some perlite and organic ferts. That's the top mix. The bottom mix for the reservoir zone is 1/3 top mix, 1/3 coco coir, and 1/3 perlite. That'll be enough soil for 3 new SIP plantings, with some left over. Next to plant is a CBD #9 pheno currently in 1 gal (photo). I'll be planting on Friday.

Triforce SIP #2

Cherry Blossom CBD #9 pheno in 1 gal, ready to plant in the new SIP. This is a super vigorous plant, so it'll be fun to see how she does in the SIP.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Planted last night in Triforce SIP #2...

Cherry Blossom CBD #9 pheno, N-generation clone.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Quick update...

I gotta get some supplies tomorrow, but I'm going to make 3 more SIPs. I have enough of the soil I just made for 2 more SIPs, so I'll need to make another 6-gal batch. I'm running low on worm castings, so that's all the soil I can make for probably a month or 2.

To plant up the SIPs, I have these clones...

White Widow (1)
Humboldt Dream (2)
Blueberry (2)
Sweet Critical CBD (1)
Cherry Blossom CBD #18 (2)

Alas, they are all indicas. At least I've got a couple HI-BISCUS going in my comparison grow—a 50/50 with sativa effects. I'm very much looking forward to acquiring seed for a full sativa, for example Chernobyl or the sativa pheno of Sugar Black Rose. I may be a month away from ordering seed, with some luck.

For the 3 SIPs, I'll likely grow: Humboldt Dream, Sweet Critical CBD (15% CBD), and Cherry Blossom CBD #18. The CBD #18 is a small indica plant with heavy resin production and a strong grape odor. I'm really curious to see how it does in a SIP. The White Widow and Blueberry will be clone moms for now.

 

[Fenderbender]

Say so your main bet is that Terpinolene & pinenes have such antifungal and antiseptic character that they will protect the plant from bud rot in suboptimal conditions (high humidity, cold temps)
Do they also function as insect repellant? cause I'm thinking now another major cause of bud rot is damage & bug sheit providing kernels for mould & rotting processes to start making it even take place in alrighty conditions.
Or they are also strong enough to stop a small infection in its tracks?
But if that's so can't isolates be used as a preventive measure or treatment, spray the plant full of extra terps?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Say so your main bet is that Terpinolene & pinenes have such antifungal and antiseptic character that they will protect the plant from bud rot in suboptimal conditions (high humidity, cold temps)

In my case, high humidity and warm temps. Also high load of spores in the area, due to surrounding jungle.

EDIT:​

​

As far as I can tell (from Google), I am one of two people to publish the term pine terpenes with respect to cannabis, in the same publication, and identifying terpinolene and pinene as part of that group. In my case, I also identified ocimene, terpinene, and terpineol as pine terpenes. The other person is John M. Guynn, who registered a patent in 2020/2021/2022 for "Topical pain relief compositions include a cannabinoid, terpenoid, and skin penetration system that includes dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO)..." I am the only person to publish the term non-pine terpenes, with respect to cannabis, and identifying terpinolene, pinene, and ocimene as not part of that group.​

​

My research in this thread has been focused on the theory that a subset of the most volatile of the cannabis terpenes—the monoterpenes—have a distinct role in natural resistance to bud rot (botrytis), and that subset is the pine terpenes.​

​

From my research on monoterpenes, I have found that terpinolene (aka delta-terpinene) is like the leader of the entourage of pine terpenes (pine entourage, pine terpene entourage), because it is often dominant among them in sativa-dominant phenotypes, and sometimes the overall dominant terpene. The other pine terpenes are: alpha and beta pinene, alpha and beta ocimene, alpha-terpinene, gamma-terpinene, terpineol, and linalool.​

​

This isn't an exhaustive list, for example there are lesser pine terpenes that usually occur in relatively minor amounts in cannabis, e.g. carene, camphene, phellandrene, borneol. Linalool does occur in relatively substantial amounts, but it doesn't necessarily neatly fit into the pine entourage with terpinolene as the leader. Sometimes linalool is present when terpinolene is not present. Similarly, myrcene and limonene are also technically found in the leaves of pine species (pine needles); however, they commonly appear in high amounts in cannabis without the presence of substantial amounts of terpinolene, so I don't include them in my list of pine terpenes, and instead classify them as among the non-pine terpenes. This is how I came to the conclusion that sativa-dominant phenotypes are associated with the pine terpenes, and indica-dominant phenotypes are associated with the non-pine terpenes. It is therefore very rare to find an indica—i.e. a phenotype with indica effects—with the presence of significant amounts of terpinolene and/or other pine terpenes. Grand Daddy Purple appears to be an exception. There are exceptions among 50/50 hybrids, for example some crosses of the Plantinum strain, which show significant ocimene yet insignificant terpinolene.​

Do they also function as insect repellant? cause I'm thinking now another major cause of bud rot is damage & bug sheit providing kernels for mould & rotting processes to start making it even take place in alrighty conditions.
Or they are also strong enough to stop a small infection in its tracks?
But if that's so can't isolates be used as a preventive measure or treatment, spray the plant full of extra terps?

Yes, I think terps are definitely involved in repelling and incapacitating insects. But no, I don't think insect damage is usually involved in the formation of bud rot. If you had a lot of bug damage that caused dead material on the buds themselves, then yes, it could be involved. But that's not typical, because the buds are where the sticky trichomes are, as well as the off-gassing of the terpenes. Maybe if you had caterpillars eating away at sugar leaves on the buds, and leaving poop, then fungus/mold could get started on that. I rarely ever see a caterpillar. I have seen little flies with red eyes, sort of in a zombified state... terpenes!

Yes, I think you could knock back fungus/mold to a degree with a spray of one or more various essential oils (including pure terpenes) that are anti-fungal, mixed with water and soap. But I wouldn't spray already developed buds with soap solution. If you did, you could then later rinse them off (while still on the plant); however, any introduction of water to the buds runs the risk of inviting fungus/mold.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Quick update...

I gotta get some supplies tomorrow, but I'm going to make 3 more SIPs. I have enough of the soil I just made for 2 more SIPs, so I'll need to make another 6-gal batch. I'm running low on worm castings, so that's all the soil I can make for probably a month or 2.

To plant up the SIPs, I have these clones...

White Widow (1)
Humboldt Dream (2)
Blueberry (2)
Sweet Critical CBD (1)
Cherry Blossom CBD #18 (2)

Alas, they are all indicas. At least I've got a couple HI-BISCUS going in my comparison grow—a 50/50 with sativa effects. I'm very much looking forward to acquiring seed for a full sativa, for example Chernobyl or the sativa pheno of Sugar Black Rose. I may be a month away from ordering seed, with some luck.

For the 3 SIPs, I'll likely grow: Humboldt Dream, Sweet Critical CBD (15% CBD), and Cherry Blossom CBD #18. The CBD #18 is a small indica plant with heavy resin production and a strong grape odor. I'm really curious to see how it does in a SIP. The White Widow and Blueberry will be clone moms for now.

I got enough tubing to make 8 SIPs, including 3/4" HDPE drain tubing. I also got 2 x 5gal white food grade buckets to add to my collection.

My planting list has changed... not going to use the Sweet Critical clone... it just doesn't look very good. So, I'll probably run Humboldt Dream, Blueberry, and the CBD #18... -or- 2x Humboldt Dream and the #18.

I may have found a local source for a couple strains I've been interested in.

 

[cbdhemp808]

SIP grow update...

The comparison grow is going well.

I top watered the CBD #9 clone today with 1 gal (pic from a week ago below). Tomorrow I'm planning to build 2 more SIPs and plant Humboldt Dream and Blueberry clones. I decided not to grow out my CBD #18 pheno, since she's a very small plant and a slow grower... another time.

 

[Azimuth]

I decided not to grow out my CBD #18 pheno, since she's a very small plant and a slow grower... another time.

Why not try it in a SIP?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Why not try it in a SIP?

Hmm, maybe I will let her grow out some in 1 gal, and then see.