Awesome find, CBD!
Yes.
Yes... that phrase (and others like it) showed up when we were looking for CBD varieties before, and I am still not really 100% sure what that means.
One of the strains I have seeds for, Purple Satellite, goes into flower outdoors before other strains. IIRC Ace's website says it shifts as the daylight hours drop below 15 hours.
!!!
This is really confusing, I must admit!
Maybe I got this wrong! I was thinking, in the case of Lebanese, they are talking about what I consider to be actual "semi-autoflowering", which is that some phenos will exhibit true autoflowering, meaning they will flower even if put under artificial lighting which would normally prevent flowering in a photoperiod plant. However, here's a clue from ACE's website...
Budtender wisdom. “Sativa” and “indica” do not describe what terps are in a certain type.This exchange in THIS THREAD got my curiosity, talking about pure sativas and long flowering time...
I tend to believe The Real Seed Company (I'd post the link to their page on Bokeo #2, but it's against forum rules). So I'll post quotes instead.
Thai sativa landraces are very pure—very close to pure landrace genetics. That's what I've found researching landraces online. This is because Thai was bred by the local people to be very potent. That's specifically what they were going for. Whereas the northern landraces (e.g. Afghan) were bred for multi-purpose. That's what I understand.
So, now it looks like the closer you are to an "original" Thai landrace, the closer you are to pure sativa, and lo and behold, a crop of Southeast Asian pure sativa, grown outdoors in the tropics, will be ready to harvest in 6 months total time...
"All tropical ganja is cultivated as a six month crop, seed to harvest. The ultra-long flowering tropical Sativa is a myth born in the indoor era." – The Real Seed Company
The question then is, how pure is the sativa? Apparently Thai sativa genetics were mixed with indica genetics a long time ago, as the Thai landrace emerged—if I understand all this correctly. But, in some remote places, the sativa purity was maintained... for example, Bokeo #2...
"A new accession of a cannabis landrace from the Bokeo region of northwest Laos, immediately east of the Mekong – a distinct type from our earlier ‘Bokeo’ offering, hence the new number.Sourced from farmers in communities that emphatically do not have contacts with the kind of Asians or Westerners who might introduce modern hybrid seeds. Furthermore, fields and plots are far distant from any conceivable source of contamination, isolated by hundreds of kilometers of sparsely populated highlands and jungle." – The Real Seed Company
From what I can tell, all but one of the tropical Southeast Asian sativa landraces offered by The Real Seed Company indicate ready to harvest in 6 months. They have one northern Thailand variety (Highland Thai) that simply says, "Regional Harvest: December," indicating it does go longer. Keywords here: "northern" and "highland".
In contrast, ACE Seeds, also known for their landrace genetics, makes no mention of this 6 months from seed to harvest. Why? Because they don't specialize in tropical Southeast Asian landraces. In fact, they only have one Southeast Asian 100% sativa landrace that I can see on their website, which is Thai Regular, and for outdoor, harvest is "End of November/December".
So, for Bokeo #2, which is from a remote area in northwest Laos, I can understand their main growing season to some degree, because my latitude here in Hawaii is very similar to there, and I'm in the tropical zone (near the ocean as opposed to upland where the climate is cooler). To take best advantage of the solar "long season" here in my location, for an outdoor greenhouse grow, I would plant seeds in April or May, with the intention of flowering them starting in June. So, for Bokeo #2, let's say I plant seeds April 20th, grow plants in veg for 2 months, and start flowering them on the solstice, June 20th. Four months later they would be ready to harvest, so October 20th. Something like that, I'm guessing. The total growing time is 6 months. Now compare this to the total growing time of the Highland Thai or Thai Regular mentioned above—harvest in Nov. or Dec.—which would be an additional 1-2 months, assuming the same time frame for planting and start of flower.
****
So, it looks like the long flowering time associated with some "pure" sativas is only associated with more modern sativas, some sativas outside of Southeast Asia, or sativas that are otherwise not genetically close to original sativa landraces.
RE: "The words sativa and indica describe the plants’ morphology and nothing more."
This is a very interesting subject, and one that I'm involved in researching. There's two main things going on: 1) The morphology of the plant (i.e. its growth habit, leaf form, size, shape, bud structure, etc.), and 2) the mind/body effects typically associated with "sativa" and "indica". Central to the effects are terpenes; in fact, there appears to be a direct correlation between the terpenes and the effects. (Note that indica/sativa effects can sometimes be misinterpreted because when people grow out seed that they buy of a particular strain, they are sometimes getting different phenos of that strain, and one pheno may be indica-leaning while another is sativa-leaning. Some phenos of 50/50 strains may even produce both sativa and indica effects.)
Now the question is, does the morphology match up with the effects? The answer appears to be—sometimes yes, sometimes no. This gets into the realm of hybridization between sativa and indica genetics, resulting in what we see when strains are advertised, for example, as 60% indica/40% sativa, or 90% sativa/10% indica. So, for example, you may have a plant that looks more like a sativa, but has mainly indica effects. Or I suppose, just the opposite—looking like an indica, but with sativa effects. So, I think it's safe to say, the words "sativa" and "indica" don't reliably describe the plant's morphology. Or stated another way, you could say for example a plant has sativa or sativa-like morphology, but that doesn't necessarily imply sativa effects.
Is "sativa" or "indica" a description of what the plant looks like, or a description of the effects of consuming its flowers? I think the answer is, both. And further, looks can be deceiving. Now, if you've got a 100% pure sativa landrace, the effects will be sativa effects. Likewise, if you've got a 100% pure indica landrace (let's say from Nepal), the effects will be indica effects. If the genetics are neither of the above, then you've got some kind of sativa/indica hybrid, and the farther genetically from the landraces, the more variable will be the genetics off the offspring, and you will have mixing of both morphology and effects.
In my research I have associated terpinolene and the other pine terpenes, when prominent or dominant in the terpene profile, as being indicators of sativa effects. This is usually the case, but there are exceptions...
It's really starting to crystalize for me... in order to have high terpinolene in an indica, you need to cross landrace indica with landrace sativa, thereby bringing in the terpinolene from the sativa. This is what's represented in the original skunks. And then, this high-terpinolene trait is passed on in further hybrids that have the original skunk prominent in the lineage. But the farther away you get genetically from the original skunk, then the less likely will be the appearance of this high-terpinolene trait. [EDIT: Or to put it another way, the terpinolene fades to the background.]But there's something subtle also going on here, I think. And that is... a terpene profile with high terpinolene often also shows high amounts of the other pine terpenes: pinene, terpinene, and ocimene. The catch is, if these are all in high enough amounts, in contrast to the non-pine terpenes, then the effects will be sativa effects. So there is a mysterious case in which terpinolene can appear in the profile, yet the effects will still be indica effects.
You can read a lot more details about this above in my thread, HERE.
Examples are: Granddaddy Purple and White Widow x Big Bud. Both have indica effects, and both have high terpinolene, but not terpinolene dominant.
If I were to pick a minimal subset of terpenes that theoretically govern indica/sativa effects, I'd pick myrcene/limonene for indica, and terpinolene/pinene/ocimene for sativa. Terpinolene is actually delta-terpinene, but there are two other terpinenes in cannabis: alpha-terpinene, and gamma-terpinene. So I would refine the terpenes governing sativa to be these: terpinene/pinene/ocimene. In addition, when terpinene/pinene/ocimene are dominant, then usually delta-terpinene (terpinolene) will be dominant among those. (Similarly, myrcene seems to be the dominant one for indica.)
What do I mean, governing? Well, in the case of a pure landrace sativa, I'm guessing you would see terpinene/pinene/ocimene dominant**, and for a pure landrace indica, I'm guessing you would see myrcene/limonene dominant. Now, in the case of the "grey zone" of hybridization, there are cases where terpinene/pinene/ocimene appear in amounts similar to myrcene/limonene. These are typically 50/50 hybrids. If terpinene/pinene/ocimene amounts are sufficiently more than myrcene/limonene amounts, the pheno will have sativa-leaning effects (e.g. Chernobyl's Slymer cut, C4). Conversely, if myrcene/limonene amounts are sufficiently higher than terpinene/pinene/ocimene amounts, then the pheno will have indica-leaning effects (Grand Daddy Purple, White Widow x Big Bud). If neither is true, the pheno will have both sativa and indica effects at the same time (Agent Orange, Island Sweet Skunk).
__________
** This is the case for the Thai Regular mentioned above... According to ACE, "It mainly contains the following monoterpenes: high amounts of beta myrcene (1/3) and terpinolene (1/3), and the remaining third distributed proportionally between beta pinene, trans ocimene, alpha pinene and limonene". In addition, the Thai Regular is listed as having 3 different aromas: "A) Fresh, lemon-lime, wood, spices. B) Sweet, creamy, perfumed, floral and musky. C) Strawberry." This implies at least 3 different phenos, which casts some doubt on the above terpene profile (i.e. "It mainly contains..."). In other words, one could expect potentially, that some phenos will have stronger sativa effects, corresponding to higher terpinene/pinene/ocimene content. On the other hand, If we were to look at Bokeo #2, I'm guessing myrcene would be lower than in the Thai Regular, terpinene/pinene/ocimene would be higher, and phenotypic differences would be less. In other words, the offspring would be more consistently 100% sativa.
But terps describe sativa and indica effects.
No, those are just to know what flavors yer gonna get.
The good lab is $75 for terps and $50 for potency. Greg said it’s hemp until he tests it. I’ll go for all of that except the words sativa and indica describing which terps you’re gonna get. That’s budtender wisdom.No, those are just to know what flavors yer gonna get.
Seriously... yes, I'm well aware of terpene lab tests... I've looked at a great many. Although I haven't gotten my own plants tested yet. It's expensive here in Hawaii... $75 per sample. And we only have one lab now in all of Hawaii, and you have to hand-deliver THC material, while they'll take "hemp" in the mail. What a bunch of utter BS... soooo tired of it!
This is a strong indica... b-caryophyllene, limonene, linalool, humulene, myrcene. Only slight amounts of "pine terpenes" in the form of a-pinene, b-pinene, a-terpineol. It looks like the lab grouped the sativa-associated terps on the left side, and indica-associated terps on the right side. Very interesting. Except I wouldn't put limonene over there. I can confirm that the whole left side are terps that occur in pine trees, including limonene.
I found this on the web...
"...while the presence of limonene is not exclusive to either Sativa or Indica strains, it is often more prominent in Sativa-dominant strains, known for their uplifting and energizing effects..."
I'm not sure I agree with that. For example, look at this profile for Durban Poison (sativa)...
or this profile for Jack Herer (sativa)...
... compare to Girl Scout Cookies (indica)...
... or Grand Daddy Purple (indica)...
This exchange in THIS THREAD got my curiosity, talking about pure sativas and long flowering time...
I tend to believe The Real Seed Company (I'd post the link to their page on Bokeo #2, but it's against forum rules). So I'll post quotes instead.
Thai sativa landraces are very pure—very close to pure landrace genetics. That's what I've found researching landraces online. This is because Thai was bred by the local people to be very potent. That's specifically what they were going for. Whereas the northern landraces (e.g. Afghan) were bred for multi-purpose. That's what I understand.
So, now it looks like the closer you are to an "original" Thai landrace, the closer you are to pure sativa, and lo and behold, a crop of Southeast Asian pure sativa, grown outdoors in the tropics, will be ready to harvest in 6 months total time...
"All tropical ganja is cultivated as a six month crop, seed to harvest. The ultra-long flowering tropical Sativa is a myth born in the indoor era." – The Real Seed Company
The question then is, how pure is the sativa? Apparently Thai sativa genetics were mixed with indica genetics a long time ago, as the Thai landrace emerged—if I understand all this correctly. But, in some remote places, the sativa purity was maintained... for example, Bokeo #2...
"A new accession of a cannabis landrace from the Bokeo region of northwest Laos, immediately east of the Mekong – a distinct type from our earlier ‘Bokeo’ offering, hence the new number.Sourced from farmers in communities that emphatically do not have contacts with the kind of Asians or Westerners who might introduce modern hybrid seeds. Furthermore, fields and plots are far distant from any conceivable source of contamination, isolated by hundreds of kilometers of sparsely populated highlands and jungle." – The Real Seed Company
From what I can tell, all but one of the tropical Southeast Asian sativa landraces offered by The Real Seed Company indicate ready to harvest in 6 months. They have one northern Thailand variety (Highland Thai) that simply says, "Regional Harvest: December," indicating it does go longer. Keywords here: "northern" and "highland".
In contrast, ACE Seeds, also known for their landrace genetics, makes no mention of this 6 months from seed to harvest. Why? Because they don't specialize in tropical Southeast Asian landraces. In fact, they only have one Southeast Asian 100% sativa landrace that I can see on their website, which is Thai Regular, and for outdoor, harvest is "End of November/December".
So, for Bokeo #2, which is from a remote area in northwest Laos, I can understand their main growing season to some degree, because my latitude here in Hawaii is very similar to there, and I'm in the tropical zone (near the ocean as opposed to upland where the climate is cooler). To take best advantage of the solar "long season" here in my location, for an outdoor greenhouse grow, I would plant seeds in April or May, with the intention of flowering them starting in June. So, for Bokeo #2, let's say I plant seeds April 20th, grow plants in veg for 2 months, and start flowering them on the solstice, June 20th. Four months later they would be ready to harvest, so October 20th. Something like that, I'm guessing. The total growing time is 6 months. Now compare this to the total growing time of the Highland Thai or Thai Regular mentioned above—harvest in Nov. or Dec.—which would be an additional 1-2 months, assuming the same time frame for planting and start of flower.
****
So, it looks like the long flowering time associated with some "pure" sativas is only associated with more modern sativas, some sativas outside of Southeast Asia, or sativas that are otherwise not genetically close to original sativa landraces.
RE: "The words sativa and indica describe the plants’ morphology and nothing more."
This is a very interesting subject, and one that I'm involved in researching. There's two main things going on: 1) The morphology of the plant (i.e. its growth habit, leaf form, size, shape, bud structure, etc.), and 2) the mind/body effects typically associated with "sativa" and "indica". Central to the effects are terpenes; in fact, there appears to be a direct correlation between the terpenes and the effects. (Note that indica/sativa effects can sometimes be misinterpreted because when people grow out seed that they buy of a particular strain, they are sometimes getting different phenos of that strain, and one pheno may be indica-leaning while another is sativa-leaning. Some phenos of 50/50 strains may even produce both sativa and indica effects.)
Now the question is, does the morphology match up with the effects? The answer appears to be—sometimes yes, sometimes no. This gets into the realm of hybridization between sativa and indica genetics, resulting in what we see when strains are advertised, for example, as 60% indica/40% sativa, or 90% sativa/10% indica. So, for example, you may have a plant that looks more like a sativa, but has mainly indica effects. Or I suppose, just the opposite—looking like an indica, but with sativa effects. So, I think it's safe to say, the words "sativa" and "indica" don't reliably describe the plant's morphology. Or stated another way, you could say for example a plant has sativa or sativa-like morphology, but that doesn't necessarily imply sativa effects.
Is "sativa" or "indica" a description of what the plant looks like, or a description of the effects of consuming its flowers? I think the answer is, both. And further, looks can be deceiving. Now, if you've got a 100% pure sativa landrace, the effects will be sativa effects. Likewise, if you've got a 100% pure indica landrace (let's say from Nepal), the effects will be indica effects. If the genetics are neither of the above, then you've got some kind of sativa/indica hybrid, and the farther genetically from the landraces, the more variable will be the genetics off the offspring, and you will have mixing of both morphology and effects.
In my research I have associated terpinolene and the other pine terpenes, when prominent or dominant in the terpene profile, as being indicators of sativa effects. This is usually the case, but there are exceptions...
It's really starting to crystalize for me... in order to have high terpinolene in an indica, you need to cross landrace indica with landrace sativa, thereby bringing in the terpinolene from the sativa. This is what's represented in the original skunks. And then, this high-terpinolene trait is passed on in further hybrids that have the original skunk prominent in the lineage. But the farther away you get genetically from the original skunk, then the less likely will be the appearance of this high-terpinolene trait. [EDIT: Or to put it another way, the terpinolene fades to the background.]But there's something subtle also going on here, I think. And that is... a terpene profile with high terpinolene often also shows high amounts of the other pine terpenes: pinene, terpinene, and ocimene. The catch is, if these are all in high enough amounts, in contrast to the non-pine terpenes, then the effects will be sativa effects. So there is a mysterious case in which terpinolene can appear in the profile, yet the effects will still be indica effects.
You can read a lot more details about this above in my thread, HERE.
Examples are: Granddaddy Purple and White Widow x Big Bud. Both have indica effects, and both have high terpinolene, but not terpinolene dominant.
If I were to pick a minimal subset of terpenes that theoretically govern indica/sativa effects, I'd pick myrcene/limonene for indica, and terpinolene/pinene/ocimene for sativa. Terpinolene is actually delta-terpinene, but there are two other terpinenes in cannabis: alpha-terpinene, and gamma-terpinene. So I would refine the terpenes governing sativa to be these: terpinene/pinene/ocimene. In addition, when terpinene/pinene/ocimene are dominant, then usually delta-terpinene (terpinolene) will be dominant among those. (Similarly, myrcene seems to be the dominant one for indica.)
What do I mean, governing? Well, in the case of a pure landrace sativa, I'm guessing you would see terpinene/pinene/ocimene dominant**, and for a pure landrace indica, I'm guessing you would see myrcene/limonene dominant. Now, in the case of the "grey zone" of hybridization, there are cases where terpinene/pinene/ocimene appear in amounts similar to myrcene/limonene. These are typically 50/50 hybrids. If terpinene/pinene/ocimene amounts are sufficiently more than myrcene/limonene amounts, the pheno will have sativa-leaning effects (e.g. Chernobyl's Slymer cut, C4). Conversely, if myrcene/limonene amounts are sufficiently higher than terpinene/pinene/ocimene amounts, then the pheno will have indica-leaning effects (Grand Daddy Purple, White Widow x Big Bud). If neither is true, the pheno will have both sativa and indica effects at the same time (Agent Orange, Island Sweet Skunk).
__________
** This is the case for the Thai Regular mentioned above... According to ACE, "It mainly contains the following monoterpenes: high amounts of beta myrcene (1/3) and terpinolene (1/3), and the remaining third distributed proportionally between beta pinene, trans ocimene, alpha pinene and limonene". In addition, the Thai Regular is listed as having 3 different aromas: "A) Fresh, lemon-lime, wood, spices. B) Sweet, creamy, perfumed, floral and musky. C) Strawberry." This implies at least 3 different phenos, which casts some doubt on the above terpene profile (i.e. "It mainly contains..."). In other words, one could expect potentially, that some phenos will have stronger sativa effects, corresponding to higher terpinene/pinene/ocimene content. On the other hand, If we were to look at Bokeo #2, I'm guessing myrcene would be lower than in the Thai Regular, terpinene/pinene/ocimene would be higher, and phenotypic differences would be less. In other words, the offspring would be more consistently 100% sativa.
Hmm... I'm not used to thinking about southern hemisphere. What would that starting time be in northern terms? Also, what elevation and what is the climate like there at starting time and the following 6 months? Temperature ranges? If it's close to the ocean, I'm guessing a climate similar to coastal Sonoma County in northern Calif.
Ah, same prices as here in Hawaii. I wish I lived in one of the 3 states where MCR Labs is located... they charge $25 for terps.
Well I'll agree with you there, because you won't know definitively which terps and in what quantities, but you'll have some idea about the pine terps vs. the non-pine terps, and hence indica vs. sativa effects. That is, if the person saying "sativa" or "indica" is not specifically talking only about morphology.
