Gee64
Well-Known Member
I think both are worth running
. What ammendments? Any calciums?
Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam
- Thread starter Azimuth
- Start date
. What ammendments? Any calciums?Highya Azimuth,
I was going to add about the calcium also. I started out the way you mentioned with less than one year compost. You'll need to add extra nitrogen to the soil, because a lot of it will go towards breaking down the carbon even more, while the rest will tend to the needs of the roots. A little bonemeal is always advantageous. Those are the things I supplement the most. Happy Smokin'
I was going to add about the calcium also. I started out the way you mentioned with less than one year compost. You'll need to add extra nitrogen to the soil, because a lot of it will go towards breaking down the carbon even more, while the rest will tend to the needs of the roots. A little bonemeal is always advantageous. Those are the things I supplement the most. Happy Smokin'
- Thread starter
- #863
I was planning on a weekly top dressing of worm castings, 2 tsp / gallon.
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- #864
Ok, the deed is done, though I'm not proud of the effort. I was pressed for time and my haste clearly showed in the process.
I totally forgot the aged leaf mold and used compost in its place, forgot the myco so will have to water-in Great White, may have ripped the roots off one of the competitors as it was hard to get out of the pot and then came all at once but the soil didn't hold together, and forgot about the minerals. I really need to just write the recipes down and just treat it as a paint by number process rather than trying to juggle the different permutations in my head.
All in all, not my best effort.
I won't get a chance to deal with anything tomorrow either so I guess I'll have a couple of days to see if they take. If not, I'll just replace any failures with the clones I still haven't floated out to check on.
I also potted up a new Northern Lights 5 to replace the current mother that's getting a bit too tall and ragged looking, and am waiting for a new Blueberry CBD seedling to show herself which I'm hoping will be tomorrow.
But, assuming both up-pots make it through the next few days I'll at least have something to compare since they were both poorly executed in the same manner. Both will get the same treatment at the same time at least until one shows a need for something the other doesn't but at least it'll be a side-by-side comparison of two different types of carbon grown in the same environment concurrently. So there's that.
scottreid1966
Well-Known Member
Hi Azi! Long time no see, my friend. Interesting theory for the clones and would like to follow but don't see the link. Is it this one?Ok, the deed is done, though I'm not proud of the effort. I was pressed for time and my haste clearly showed in the process.
I totally forgot the aged leaf mold and used compost in its place, forgot the myco so will have to water-in Great White, may have ripped the roots off one of the competitors as it was hard to get out of the pot and then came all at once but the soil didn't hold together, and forgot about the minerals. I really need to just write the recipes down and just treat it as a paint by number process rather than trying to juggle the different permutations in my head.
All in all, not my best effort.
I won't get a chance to deal with anything tomorrow either so I guess I'll have a couple of days to see if they take. If not, I'll just replace any failures with the clones I still haven't floated out to check on.
I also potted up a new Northern Lights 5 to replace the current mother that's getting a bit too tall and ragged looking, and am waiting for a new Blueberry CBD seedling to show herself which I'm hoping will be tomorrow.
But, assuming both up-pots make it through the next few days I'll at least have something to compare since they were both poorly executed in the same manner. Both will get the same treatment at the same time at least until one shows a need for something the other doesn't but at least it'll be a side-by-side comparison of two different types of carbon grown in the same environment concurrently. So there's that.
Won't be cloning till next early spring. Building up on my indica supply with alot of seeds ( doubled my order so I got 50 instead of 25.
Since my Cafe Racer perpetual grow died due to PM, I'll need to plant some of the few seeds I got last year early and sex them ASAP to clone for out-door so following the perlite thing may be beneficial to me,
Take care, my friend!
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- #866
Hi Scott!!
If you're looking for my Cloning with Jadam thread, there you go. I'm trying a bunch of different things to see what I have success with so by the time you get to trying it for yourself maybe I'll have some conclusions.
A few of us have had success getting seedlings to show sex within 30 days by putting them under 12/12 for the first 10 days above ground and then reverting to 18/6. Nothing conclusive since we don't have enough examples but, so far, it seems to work quite well.
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- #867
10 days in and I'm quite pleased with how healthy all of the up-pots look given my new input of 'not quite finished' compost. I had thought I might have a nitrogen issue crop up early with it. Maybe it's still coming, but they seem to like the compost so far.Ok, the deed is done, though I'm not proud of the effort. I was pressed for time and my haste clearly showed in the process.
I totally forgot the aged leaf mold and used compost in its place, forgot the myco so will have to water-in Great White, may have ripped the roots off one of the competitors as it was hard to get out of the pot and then came all at once but the soil didn't hold together, and forgot about the minerals. I really need to just write the recipes down and just treat it as a paint by number process rather than trying to juggle the different permutations in my head.
All in all, not my best effort.
I won't get a chance to deal with anything tomorrow either so I guess I'll have a couple of days to see if they take. If not, I'll just replace any failures with the clones I still haven't floated out to check on.
I also potted up a new Northern Lights 5 to replace the current mother that's getting a bit too tall and ragged looking, and am waiting for a new Blueberry CBD seedling to show herself which I'm hoping will be tomorrow.
But, assuming both up-pots make it through the next few days I'll at least have something to compare since they were both poorly executed in the same manner. Both will get the same treatment at the same time at least until one shows a need for something the other doesn't but at least it'll be a side-by-side comparison of two different types of carbon grown in the same environment concurrently. So there's that.
I topped and cleaned up the lowers on the twin CBD plants today. I usually let the limbs get a bit longer so I could try to clone them but, given my recent success in getting cuts to root, I don't need to to postpone that which should be done. Kind of an odd feeling, but I like it!
I'm planning on standardizing my input schedule and I'm starting with adding a small amount of worm castings every week, fertigating with my FAA/JLF every two weeks, and adding a top dressing of compost monthly.
I'll try that for a few cycles and see what I see.
- Thread starter
- #868
And so far what I see is really good color and growth on all of the plants. I've also added a daily misting of the plants in an attempt to keep the bugs at bay. I spray with a mild soap solution on day 1, and then water/foliar each of the next two days, then cycle through again.
So far, much less bug pressure than previous rounds although this is about the time frame when the bugs have ramped up in the past.
Still, I'm optimistic that the changes I've made to both the soil mix and the "nutrient" schedule will pay big dividends.
- Thread starter
- #869
I went for a walk and spent the time thinking about carbon (damn you @Gee64 
).
We all know that I grow in small pots, 2 gallon buckets (and SIPs at that), so the container volume for soil is even less. I've been told from the start that my containers are too small to have a successful organic grow since there is no way to load enough nutrients into them to sustain the plant for an entire grow cycle.
Gee has had me focus directly on the amount of carbon in the mix, and has indicated that once I get things dialed in better that maybe I can substitute a portion of some of the components for more carbon in an effort to extend the healthy part of the grow.
This suggests to me that the carbon is being used up which then cascades bad things all the way down the line leading to apparent deficiencies and it is consistent with the yellowing I normally see somewhere around week 5-6.
If this is indeed the case, and I have no reason to question the theory, it seems to me that providing a warehouse of additional carbon for the microbes to access should be at least a partial answer to the conundrum, and I am attempting to do that this round with my topdressing of carbon in the form of compost.
Indeed, Mother Nature does it exactly this way, dumping tons of fresh carbon in the form of fall leaves and dead foliage on top of the ground for the microbes to process and the worms to shuttle portions down into the soil.
So, why would that not be similar in a small container grow with added worms? It's immaterial to me how often I would need to add to this compost topdressing, and in fact I would welcome the need to do so more frequently than the monthly rate I'm planning now since that would presumably mean the microbes are feasting heavily which should translate into happier plants.
If this is a reasonable presumption, then having different composts for veg and for flower might be beneficial, although it seems that with the amount of P that is needed even in early veg that one big pile of goodness is probably sufficient and may even be preferable.
And, if supplementing the carbon "just like Mother Nature" can work well, then it's probably scalable to even smaller pots.
So, Gee. What say you??
).We all know that I grow in small pots, 2 gallon buckets (and SIPs at that), so the container volume for soil is even less. I've been told from the start that my containers are too small to have a successful organic grow since there is no way to load enough nutrients into them to sustain the plant for an entire grow cycle.
Gee has had me focus directly on the amount of carbon in the mix, and has indicated that once I get things dialed in better that maybe I can substitute a portion of some of the components for more carbon in an effort to extend the healthy part of the grow.
This suggests to me that the carbon is being used up which then cascades bad things all the way down the line leading to apparent deficiencies and it is consistent with the yellowing I normally see somewhere around week 5-6.
If this is indeed the case, and I have no reason to question the theory, it seems to me that providing a warehouse of additional carbon for the microbes to access should be at least a partial answer to the conundrum, and I am attempting to do that this round with my topdressing of carbon in the form of compost.
Indeed, Mother Nature does it exactly this way, dumping tons of fresh carbon in the form of fall leaves and dead foliage on top of the ground for the microbes to process and the worms to shuttle portions down into the soil.
So, why would that not be similar in a small container grow with added worms? It's immaterial to me how often I would need to add to this compost topdressing, and in fact I would welcome the need to do so more frequently than the monthly rate I'm planning now since that would presumably mean the microbes are feasting heavily which should translate into happier plants.
If this is a reasonable presumption, then having different composts for veg and for flower might be beneficial, although it seems that with the amount of P that is needed even in early veg that one big pile of goodness is probably sufficient and may even be preferable.
And, if supplementing the carbon "just like Mother Nature" can work well, then it's probably scalable to even smaller pots.
So, Gee. What say you??
Highya Azimuth,
I can say that if you top with compost, you'll need some added nitrogen, and I always add more microbe solution. In my garden, the ladies have a 6' layer of compost/mulch being added to at times. It consists of grass clippings, comfrey, and nettles. I put microbe solution on every week. Still use nitrogen (a little) because fans are cannibalized too early. Should be plenty of carbon in there. I use bonemeal to put in soil at beginning of grow. I read where this necessary for adequate uptake later on. Happy Smokin'
I can say that if you top with compost, you'll need some added nitrogen, and I always add more microbe solution. In my garden, the ladies have a 6' layer of compost/mulch being added to at times. It consists of grass clippings, comfrey, and nettles. I put microbe solution on every week. Still use nitrogen (a little) because fans are cannibalized too early. Should be plenty of carbon in there. I use bonemeal to put in soil at beginning of grow. I read where this necessary for adequate uptake later on. Happy Smokin'
- Thread starter
- #871
Thanks, Bode. I'm adding a bit of worm castings weekly which I hope will provide the needed microbes. I'm not planning to add any N to the topdressing as I don't want any active thermophyllic composting happening in the pots.
I figure Mother Nature does it that way and Gee indicates that the microbes can access as much N as they need from the air itself, but I suppose we'll see.
I'm only a couple of weeks in so far, so maybe the requirement for more N will soon become apparent, but, so far so good.
I figure Mother Nature does it that way and Gee indicates that the microbes can access as much N as they need from the air itself, but I suppose we'll see.
I'm only a couple of weeks in so far, so maybe the requirement for more N will soon become apparent, but, so far so good.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Thats pretty much spot on and I am glad you mentioned P. You need a little bit more of it every day as the plant grows up in size and through the stages until harvest.I went for a walk and spent the time thinking about carbon (damn you @Gee64
We all know that I grow in small pots, 2 gallon buckets (and SIPs at that), so the container volume for soil is even less. I've been told from the start that my containers are too small to have a successful organic grow since there is no way to load enough nutrients into them to sustain the plant for an entire grow cycle.
Gee has had me focus directly on the amount of carbon in the mix, and has indicated that once I get things dialed in better that maybe I can substitute a portion of some of the components for more carbon in an effort to extend the healthy part of the grow.
This suggests to me that the carbon is being used up which then cascades bad things all the way down the line leading to apparent deficiencies and it is consistent with the yellowing I normally see somewhere around week 5-6.
If this is indeed the case, and I have no reason to question the theory, it seems to me that providing a warehouse of additional carbon for the microbes to access should be at least a partial answer to the conundrum, and I am attempting to do that this round with my topdressing of carbon in the form of compost.
Indeed, Mother Nature does it exactly this way, dumping tons of fresh carbon in the form of fall leaves and dead foliage on top of the ground for the microbes to process and the worms to shuttle portions down into the soil.
So, why would that not be similar in a small container grow with added worms? It's immaterial to me how often I would need to add to this compost topdressing, and in fact I would welcome the need to do so more frequently than the monthly rate I'm planning now since that would presumably mean the microbes are feasting heavily which should translate into happier plants.
If this is a reasonable presumption, then having different composts for veg and for flower might be beneficial, although it seems that with the amount of P that is needed even in early veg that one big pile of goodness is probably sufficient and may even be preferable.
And, if supplementing the carbon "just like Mother Nature" can work well, then it's probably scalable to even smaller pots.
So, Gee. What say you??
You do need carbon to support the microlife or it dies or goes dormant. Both really.
If you get your brix up quick and keep it up you no longer, in theory, need soil carbon.
If you arent burning soil carbon you are burning exudates,but you no longer benefit from the high phos content of the leaves.
Having control, because the plant makes the exudates, allows the plant to get phosphorus any time it wants from the microbes, if its available in the soil. It purchases it.
So the faster you can get your phosphorus up in life to break free of soil carbon, the less soil carbon you need in the pot, leaving more room for plant food.
Logic would say that if that were true then you need carbon and phosporus, and the microbes in the beginning are eating soil carbon, so why not use a high phos carbon such as leaves. A twofer.
But once the leaves are gone and you switch to exudates you still need phosphorus, but it now must come from the soil.
You need at least 2 kinds of phos. In the beginning you have no exudates, so you can't purchase phos, so if it's in the carbon that you are eating anyways....
Keep that in mind as you dial it all in. Get back to us after your next walk.
When it comes to phos you need a 5 month plan that can deliver a little more every day until the plant hits full bore, and then maintain it.
It's best if the early stuff is in the carbon.
All the extra space for plant food defends against nutritional deficiencies once the plant links into the carbon cycle and starts to turn a profit.
As for compost,
As long as your compost is full spectrum on nutrients with and adequate amount that the plant could ever want, the only difference really, between veg and flower, is in flower you dial back the nitrogen. Remember that for a second.
People will say to "up" the phosphorus, but in organics you don't "up" the phos, you have been accumulating it all along and need to continue that, accumulating a bit more than the day before, every day.
OK back to nitrogen.
The easiest way to dial back nitrogen is to allow magnesium to increase a little bit and tie up a bit of nitrogen.
Remember magnesium in excess (excess being heavier mag on the mag to cal ratio) ties up a nitrogen 1 for 1 for every unit of excess.
That reduces nitrogen and increases magnesium right when the plant is really eating heavy, and if you see a nitro deficiency starting you just add some calcium to free nitrogen up.
So if you are going to make a flower compost that needs more mag cuz flower does... well theres your next Jadam/KNF walk.
I would consider making a big batch of broad spectrum compost but one side of the tumbler gets a certain amount of extra magnesium inputs.
How much more you ask?
Its your art, you go figure it out.
Wear comfy shoes.
Use your refractometer.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
This nitrogen bode speaks of is a real thing. If you never get your brix up and need soil carbon thru to the end you also need soil nitrogen.Just a slow steady release to keep warm but not burst into flame, such as feather meal. Its only when you enter the carbon cycle that you also enter the nitrogen cycle. Aim for the stars.
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- #874
I can see the N issue with unfinished compost in the soil mix, but just using the compost as a topdressing? I don't see it pulling N from the soil at least. As I said Mother Nature does it that way and her topdressing is totally unfinished when it gets dropped on the surface. Of course that's in the fall and has all winter to partially break down so it seems it would be similar.
New stuff on top of old stuff. That's how I'm rolling.
New stuff on top of old stuff. That's how I'm rolling.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
Grab a coffee, here is a 10 minute dummied down nitrogen thingyBelow is a snippet that explains how to get nitrogen from the air and to the plant, but it only really becomes effective once brix is up to supply adequate exudates.
The last paragraph refers to cover crops.
Healthy high brix plants sequester both nitrogen and carbon.
Everyone has heard of the carbon cycle, and if you spend a couple hours really studying it your organics will improve.
There is also a Nitrogen Cycle that is equally important but most people have no idea it exists and have never heard the term Nitrogen Cycle.
Thats because selling nitrogen is an extremely lucrative business, but if you understand both cycles you quickly see how good compost and some soil carbon/nitrogen to prime the pump and get brix up creates free carbon and nitrogen inputs.
I prefer fish ferts for my soil nitrogen. It has the most traces in it. If you are going to add nitrogen why not add the best nitrogen.
The snippet:
"Many microorganisms fix nitrogen symbiotically by partnering with a host plant. The plant provides sugars from photosynthesis that are utilized by the nitrogen-fixing microorganism for the energy it needs for nitrogen fixation. In exchange for these carbon sources, the microbe provides fixed nitrogen to the host plant for its growth.
One example of this type of nitrogen fixation is the water fern Azolla’s symbiosis with a cyanobacterium Anabaena azollae. Anabaena colonizes cavities formed at the base of Azolla fronds. There the cyanobacteria fix significant amounts of nitrogen in specialized cells called heterocysts. This symbiosis has been used for at least 1000 years as a biofertilizer in wetland paddies in Southeast Asia. Rice paddies are typically covered with Azolla “blooms” that fix up to 600 Kg N ha-1 yr-1 during the growing season (Postgate 1982, Fattah 2005).
Another example is the symbiosis between actinorhizal trees and shrubs, such as Alder (Alnus sp.), with the actinomycete Frankia. These plants are native to North America and tend to thrive in nitrogen-poor environments. In many areas they are the most common non-legume nitrogen fixers and are often the pioneer species in successional plant communities. Actinorhizal plants are found in many ecosystems including alpine, xeric, chapparal, forest, glacial till, riparian, coastal dune, and arctic tundra environments (Benson & Silvester, 1993).
Even though the symbiotic partners described above play an important role in the worldwide ecology of nitrogen fixation, by far the most important nitrogen-fixing symbiotic associations are the relationships between legumes and Rhizobium and Bradyrhizobium bacteria. Important legumes used in agricultural systems include alfalfa, beans, clover, cowpeas, lupines, peanut, soybean, and vetches. Of the legumes in agricultural production, soybeans are grown on 50% of the global area devoted to legumes, and represent 68% of the total global legume production (Vance 2001)."
So if you ever want to lower your nitrogen inputs, excess magnesium will do it here. The nitrogen produced by the bacteria will be locked out in direct equivelents to the excess Mag, but can be freed up any time its needed just by adding calcium to neutralize Mag's lockout grip.
This is how Cal Mag fixes a yellowing plant.
In the ground outdoors this just happens.
The water table drops through out the season and calcium goes down with it, allowing Mag to restrict some nitrogen later in the season when flower occurs and the plant switches from growing foliage to producing terpenes.
When nitrogen bacteria get reduced, the extra exudates go to promoting more Phos microbes, and nature flips the process without our help.
Far less tissue is formed in flower so less nitrogen is needed. Less nitrogen in a plant means less water in the plant as nitrogen requires water, so the sap is less diluted, brix climbs, and bugs aren't an issue, plus you break free from soil carbon and indirectly soil nitrogen.
Atmospheric nitrogen must still be run into the soil and through a microbe, and then to the plant, so technically its still soil nitrogen, but the atmosphere is its input, not composting greens.
In pots we must ensure this occurs or be ready to stay low brix and supply the nitrogen.
So here is a mental picture to hold onto.
The ground (or a pot) has good soil. It has adequate calcium to fluff the top 12 inches nicely.
The other ground has enough calcium to fluff the top 18 inches.
A high pressure ridge blows in and it is exactly that... air being squeezed between the outer edge of the atmosphere and the ground, raising pressure.
When that air gets squeezed it gets pushed into the soil.
Air is 78% nitrogen.
Which example, the 12" or the 18" gets more nitrogen?
Then, as almost always, a high pressure ridge finally gets broken by a rain event.
Nitrogen requires water to work.
Think Momma nature has it figured?
Mimic that
Don't smoke bug spray.
- Thread starter
- #876
So this would suggest I stop top dressing with worm castings at some point after fIip, correct? Maybe right after stretch? Not sure how long it takes for the worm castings to be fully soluabilzed.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
It all depends how you approach it. I was more referring to the idea that if you are going to make 2 different composts for veg and flower you may want to consider a bit more mag content in the flower compost, and leave everything else the same.
Upping the mag for flower will restrict nitrogen a bit and add more mag when the plant is feeding heavy.
Reducing EWC will reduce broad spectrum nutrition.
You are better off adding a bit extra mag than reducing calcium.
scottreid1966
Well-Known Member
I'm a little confused, Azi. If you are using sip's, why are you top dressing? My Bananas have just flipped.
scottreid1966
Well-Known Member
I have a cal-mag solution. What do I need, naturally, to add mag to mu nutes?
Thanks.
Gee64
Well-Known Member
@Azimuth has the best answers for that. He has potions and voodoo.
I use dolomite in my global mix as my main magnesium input.
Some use epsom salts. I have never had good luck with them but many have.
If you add enough dolomite to your mix to cover magnesium, then add enough gypsum to your mix to cover the needed sulphur, the calcium in both dolomite and gypsum isn't quite enough for the whole grow so you still need to add some oyster shell flower, or another calcium carbonate source, but the point being that if you preplan it for next time its pretty easy to avoid a magnesium deficiency, and if you still have one then add more dolomite.
But Azi will have an idea. Voodoo I say.