Cations are positively charged ions.
PeeJay's Prudent Home-Brewed Organic Soil - Outdoor Out of Sight Deck Grow
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Just to clarify. If someone is growing cannabis in off the shelf soil I can give advice on how to improve CEC. In Corgie's case he has already done all the things I would recommend by mineralizing his soil with amendments. I don't have a clue how to tweak his soil to improve the CEC from where it is, and very few people do.
For those who don't have a mineralized soil Azomite or Excellerite work well, and so does an amendment like the Yum Yum I use. GF likes lava sand, and from what I've read about it, it will also improve the CEC. Add some of these things to your soil and you will improve the CEC.
Beyond the basic information provided so far about ion exchange you don't really need to know much.
For those who don't have a mineralized soil Azomite or Excellerite work well, and so does an amendment like the Yum Yum I use. GF likes lava sand, and from what I've read about it, it will also improve the CEC. Add some of these things to your soil and you will improve the CEC.
Beyond the basic information provided so far about ion exchange you don't really need to know much.
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- #463
Sorry, I'm multitasking and keep remembering more things. The Excelerite is montmorillonite clay. Don't think of clay as what you dig out of a riverbank and use to make pottery. There are other montmorillonite clay products out there as well. They have all been chelated with humic acid.
GardenFaerie
New Member
Negative charge is an anion. I know you know the difference, but in lay terms what's the difference which I used?
Here's how to test it ... 
There's a nice explanatory passage ...
The cation exchange capacity (CEC) of a soil is a measure of the quantity of negatively charged sites on soil surfaces that can retain positively charged ions (cations) such as calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), and potassium (K+), by electrostatic forces. Cations retained electrostatically are easily exchangeable with cations in the soil solution so a soil with a higher CEC has a greater capacity to maintain adequate quantities of Ca2+, Mg2+ and K+ than a soil with a low CEC. A soil with a higher CEC may not necessarily be more fertile because a soil’s CEC can also be occupied by acid cations such as hydrogen (H+) and aluminum (Al3+). However, when combined with other measures of soil fertility, CEC is a good indicator of soil quality and productivity.
Cation exchange sites are found primarily on clay minerals and organic matter (OM) surfaces. Soil OM will develop a greater CEC at near-neutral pH than under acidic conditions (pH-dependent CEC). Thus, addition of an organic material will likely increase a soil's CEC over time. On the other hand, a soil’s CEC can decrease with time as well, through e.g. natural or fertilizer-induced acidification and/or OM decomposition.
There's a nice explanatory passage ...
The cation exchange capacity (CEC) of a soil is a measure of the quantity of negatively charged sites on soil surfaces that can retain positively charged ions (cations) such as calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), and potassium (K+), by electrostatic forces. Cations retained electrostatically are easily exchangeable with cations in the soil solution so a soil with a higher CEC has a greater capacity to maintain adequate quantities of Ca2+, Mg2+ and K+ than a soil with a low CEC. A soil with a higher CEC may not necessarily be more fertile because a soil’s CEC can also be occupied by acid cations such as hydrogen (H+) and aluminum (Al3+). However, when combined with other measures of soil fertility, CEC is a good indicator of soil quality and productivity.
Cation exchange sites are found primarily on clay minerals and organic matter (OM) surfaces. Soil OM will develop a greater CEC at near-neutral pH than under acidic conditions (pH-dependent CEC). Thus, addition of an organic material will likely increase a soil's CEC over time. On the other hand, a soil’s CEC can decrease with time as well, through e.g. natural or fertilizer-induced acidification and/or OM decomposition.
And that was exactly the type of clay I was thinking about. I'm like how can something grow in a medium that dries so hard.
GardenFaerie
New Member
PJ, have you ever used Kaolin clay? I've used it on fruit trees with a lot of success to keep pests off. They do not like it. I dilute it in rainwater and spray foliage with it. Coating the foliage helps protect it from hot sun, and is particularly effective against chewing insects like grasshoppers.
I have to look up montmorillonite clay. I never heard of it yet. I do love Azomite. I've added it to my teas when I brew them. We have fire ants here and they do not like compost tea, especially if there is horse manure in it, for some reason. The microbes in the tea much interfere with the ants and they literally move their mounds when drenched. All ants are beneficial outdoors, so this is a great tool someone discovered here.
By the way, I should just say I have been in a very bad mood the last few days. If I've seemed testy, this is why. I'm very irritable and have had fever on and off. No excuses, just an apology for anything I may have said.
I have to look up montmorillonite clay. I never heard of it yet. I do love Azomite. I've added it to my teas when I brew them. We have fire ants here and they do not like compost tea, especially if there is horse manure in it, for some reason. The microbes in the tea much interfere with the ants and they literally move their mounds when drenched. All ants are beneficial outdoors, so this is a great tool someone discovered here.
By the way, I should just say I have been in a very bad mood the last few days. If I've seemed testy, this is why. I'm very irritable and have had fever on and off. No excuses, just an apology for anything I may have said.
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- #468
Nice Gray! And how do we reduce acidification that occurs naturally over time in our container gardens? We flush!
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- #469
I have not used that particular clay product, GF, but I imagine it's similar. You seem no more or less testy than usual. 
GardenFaerie
New Member
Here's how to test it ...
There's a nice explanatory passage ...
The cation exchange capacity (CEC) of a soil is a measure of the quantity of negatively charged sites on soil surfaces that can retain positively charged ions (cations) such as calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+), and potassium (K+), by electrostatic forces. Cations retained electrostatically are easily exchangeable with cations in the soil solution so a soil with a higher CEC has a greater capacity to maintain adequate quantities of Ca2+, Mg2+ and K+ than a soil with a low CEC. A soil with a higher CEC may not necessarily be more fertile because a soil’s CEC can also be occupied by acid cations such as hydrogen (H+) and aluminum (Al3+). However, when combined with other measures of soil fertility, CEC is a good indicator of soil quality and productivity.
Cation exchange sites are found primarily on clay minerals and organic matter (OM) surfaces. Soil OM will develop a greater CEC at near-neutral pH than under acidic conditions (pH-dependent CEC). Thus, addition of an organic material will likely increase a soil's CEC over time. On the other hand, a soil’s CEC can decrease with time as well, through e.g. natural or fertilizer-induced acidification and/or OM decomposition.
Perfect. It's exactly what I have been saying for two days and unless you pay a plant and soil lab, like texasplantandsoillab dot com
No home testing will ever give you this information.
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- #471
I said the same thing in agreement with you, GF. Yeah, we are not going to be testing our soil CEC in our home kitchens.
In summation, amend your soil with a chelated clay product, lava sand, rock dust, etc and make sure your soil has a good amount of organic matter in it. A periodic flush can reduce the acidification that takes place over time and reduce CEC (or even making sure you get some decent runoff from well soaked soil.) In containers the acid build-up over time is a bigger problem than in the ground. The ground is an awful big leach field.
In summation, amend your soil with a chelated clay product, lava sand, rock dust, etc and make sure your soil has a good amount of organic matter in it. A periodic flush can reduce the acidification that takes place over time and reduce CEC (or even making sure you get some decent runoff from well soaked soil.) In containers the acid build-up over time is a bigger problem than in the ground. The ground is an awful big leach field.
GardenFaerie
New Member
I have not used that particular clay product, GF, but I imagine it's similar. You seem no more or less testy than usual.
Whatchew talkingbout Willis? You sayin' I'm usually testy! Haha. I probably am. I'll own that.
Wow, now I gotta catch up. But I got what I was asking for, thanks guys.
PeeJay you have a knack at explaining things. I think its cool to think elevated CEC = same for Brix readings. and you're right, i dont know how deep an understanding of CEC is really necessary for me to have. I dont want to be a scientist, i just wanna grow serious dank. Thanks man.
In regards to clay. I've read that in combination with LOTS of Humus, it is a super amendment, and I think for containers too.
bentonite clay is comprised of montmorillonite. That's the stuff I've been reading about. Sold at pottery stores. I haven't read of it being chelated with humic acid. I guess I'm looking at it in a rawer form?
I've been to busy today to really read everyone's posts on subject thoroughly, but I will. You guys are good stuff.
PeeJay you have a knack at explaining things. I think its cool to think elevated CEC = same for Brix readings. and you're right, i dont know how deep an understanding of CEC is really necessary for me to have. I dont want to be a scientist, i just wanna grow serious dank. Thanks man.
In regards to clay. I've read that in combination with LOTS of Humus, it is a super amendment, and I think for containers too.
bentonite clay is comprised of montmorillonite. That's the stuff I've been reading about. Sold at pottery stores. I haven't read of it being chelated with humic acid. I guess I'm looking at it in a rawer form?
I've been to busy today to really read everyone's posts on subject thoroughly, but I will. You guys are good stuff.
I had a phone conversation with my organic growing mentor. I sent him some links too. And then we talked about it some more.
Basically what he told me is very similar to what PeeJay said. He told me that one could have his soil tested or a "Jedi" as he calls it (good organic grower) can look at the plants and say, That soil has a higher CEC level. He basically told me not to worry about diving any deeper into it, And that's that really. His big deal is loads of OM in a mix. He hasn't heard of using clay in a soil mix for containers either. I am learning stuff today which feels good. I still feel pretty clueless though, lol
Basically what he told me is very similar to what PeeJay said. He told me that one could have his soil tested or a "Jedi" as he calls it (good organic grower) can look at the plants and say, That soil has a higher CEC level. He basically told me not to worry about diving any deeper into it, And that's that really. His big deal is loads of OM in a mix. He hasn't heard of using clay in a soil mix for containers either. I am learning stuff today which feels good. I still feel pretty clueless though, lol
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- #475
It was a good question to ask, Corgie. It took a team effort and some drilling down to get to a concise answer. Graytail and GF made MAJOR contributions to the effort. At any rate, several of us are now prepared to answer the question in simple terms focused on what a person really needs to know about CEC, and that's pretty darn cool.
trichomes
New Member
iI caught the end of this discussion and liked it, I backed up & read it! thanks for posting the CEC link CO
u can ignore the link request I just sent you, lol.
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- #477
In reflection we can see why the Yum-Yum is a great and easy to use food and soil conditioner for those who do not want to mess with a bazillion different containers of stuff and mix their own. The rock phosphate, greensand, and rock dust all have a high CEC and are chelated by the humate. The kelp meal, alfalfa meal, and cotton seed meal are all easily broken down organic matter, and the dry molasses encourages the bacteria that break them down. Smart stuff - probably not perfect, but smart and easy.
GardenFaerie
New Member
I think this weekend we're taking the ride over to the garden center which sells it. I'm going to call today to see it its in stock.
Sometimes people think oh, that's a lot of money for low percentages of elements, but in organics you do not need the big pushing because organic is not based solely on nitrogen. Way back when they invented fertilizer, I believe it was Leibig who said that all plants need is N to thrive. He was massively wrong and farmers who started using high N in an inorganic form without crop rotation and firmly entrenched in monoculture and viola! Dead soil. Dead. Dead. Dead.
On his deathbed (just about) he admitted he was wrong. The Father of Modern Fertilizer. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but the bottom line is, synthetic fertilizers have made soil dependent on them and soil remediation on these huge monoculture farms takes decades.
Organic fertilizer only places what plants can actually use. Listed on the bag are the numbers for NPK and they are low, but guaranteed to be at least that. There is usually more, but they must list the absolute minimum availability.
I'm off on a tangent, but I never understand why anyone would use anything other than organic materials because you get a healthier plant with far less problems. Even if you come close to organic it's much better. Growology is not entirely organic, but I've had a look and that is a nice product. It's also very simple.
Sorry Peege for the bla bla.
Sometimes people think oh, that's a lot of money for low percentages of elements, but in organics you do not need the big pushing because organic is not based solely on nitrogen. Way back when they invented fertilizer, I believe it was Leibig who said that all plants need is N to thrive. He was massively wrong and farmers who started using high N in an inorganic form without crop rotation and firmly entrenched in monoculture and viola! Dead soil. Dead. Dead. Dead.
On his deathbed (just about) he admitted he was wrong. The Father of Modern Fertilizer. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but the bottom line is, synthetic fertilizers have made soil dependent on them and soil remediation on these huge monoculture farms takes decades.
Organic fertilizer only places what plants can actually use. Listed on the bag are the numbers for NPK and they are low, but guaranteed to be at least that. There is usually more, but they must list the absolute minimum availability.
I'm off on a tangent, but I never understand why anyone would use anything other than organic materials because you get a healthier plant with far less problems. Even if you come close to organic it's much better. Growology is not entirely organic, but I've had a look and that is a nice product. It's also very simple.
Sorry Peege for the bla bla.
'Grats on your MoTM nomination brother 
It's well deserved for all your efforts around here
It's well deserved for all your efforts around here
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- #480
Thanks Lester. There are so many recognition worthy members on this site that it is an honor to be considered.