New City Grower 2.0

KingJohnC said:
Your leaf damage appears to be a phosphorous deficiency due to pH lockout. Your fertilizer is too low in phosphorous and potassium for flower.


Here is a nutrient availability chart

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I use General Hydroponics Flora series 3 part nutrients that can be mixed for all stages of vegetative growth and flowering. General Hydroponics Flora series can be used with hydroponic, soil and soiless mediums.

https://generalhydroponics.com nutrients flora series

https://www.growitbest.com general hydroponics Flora series performance pack
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Very nice KJC! The tragic pH situation, I fear, damaged the proteins in the microscopic root hairs. These complex folded structures are largely held in their functional shape by hydrogen bonds (and disulfide bonds, and Van der Waals forces.) A very low pH causes the transporter proteins to unravel and lose their functional structure (denaturation.) Some readers may be familiar with ceviche. An highly acidic solution (lemon or lime juice typically) is added to raw fish. The acid "cooks" the fish. It doesn't cook the fish with heat. Both heat and acid will denature proteins and destroy their functional configuration.

With ceviche, the acid causes the proteins to unravel from their highly complex twisted and folded configuration held together largely by hydrogen bonding. This straightening out of the proteins firms up the flesh of the raw fish in the same way that an egg white (largely albumin protein) does when you put it into a hot pan. My theory is that the very low pH denatured the proteins in the microscopic root hairs that absorb nutrients from the soil. I may be wrong, but it is a very solid hypothesis based on the information. If that is the case, the deficiency is not about what is available to the plant, it is about the plants compromised ability to absorb nutrients from the soil in general.

I looked at the organic phosphate levels in the various ferts used and it was a concern. Here's the thing, a nutrition issue is rarely one thing. There is almost always a mix of factors that lead to it. In this case I think the core of the problem is a physical one caused by the plants compromised ability to absorb any positively charged ions - ions that are dependent on protein transporters to get moved into the plant.

Like I said, the phosphorous was a concern. You may note that the gentle fishy ferts I recommended typically have a ratio of 2(N)-3(P)-1(K). :)
 
I feel the need to comment on the pretty and ubiquitous pH/nutrient availability chart. The comment is directed specifically towards soil and soilless medium growers. In my opinion, that chart does far more harm than good. What follows is copied form one of my blog posts for the most part:


First, when we discuss pH it is important to remember that the pH scale is logarithmic. The difference between pH 7.0 and pH 6.9, or pH 6.3 and pH 6.5 is really, really small. Because the scale is logarithmic the difference between 5.9 and 6.0 is equal to the total difference between and 6.0 and 7.0 The difference between 5.0 and 4.9 is equal to the total difference between 5.0 and 6.0, and 100 times the difference between 6.9 and 7.0… In order to accurately alter pH in the 6.0-7.0 range you need to do a careful titration with a very sensitive indicator or use a very expensive laboratory grade meter. The same holds true moving in the opposite direction. Between 7.0 and 8.0 the differences are minute.

pH meters are more useful for hydro growers because the scale is more friendly and less precise between 5.0 and 6.0. I’m not going to delve into why hydo requires a lower pH here. This post will be lengthy enough without doing so. The point I want to make is that readings between 6.0 and 7.0 are rarely accurate to one decimal point. Heck, they are rarely accurate within three or four tenths! So long as the water you use is in the 6.0 to 7.0 range in soil there is no need to be concerned.

If you are using tap water that is out of the 6.0 to 7.0 range it is going to hurt you in the long run. If you are pH adjusting out of range water adjust a large volume of water at a time. Adjusting one gallon is much more difficult than adjusting six. You only have so much control over drop size of pH up and down additives. A larger volume of water is more forgiving to work with. Once you add an adjuster you need to mix the water well and let it sit for several minute before taking a reading.

Bottled nutrients typically have a pH in the 5.0 to 5.5 range. The reason for this is that the manufacturers need to preserve the product so they add acid. Most bacteria can’t live in that range. If they didn’t add the acid bacteria would grow in the nutrient bottles resulting in spoilage. Therefore, when you add bottled nutrients to the water it drops the pH. We don’t add much volume of nutrients to the water. The change in pH is negligible when we do so. As mentioned before we are splitting hairs between pH 6.0 and 7.0 anyway.

Almost all commercial soils contain added buffers. Garden lime is the most common. You can add some extra garden lime to soil if you want. It is very cheap. A buffer contains significant amounts of both a weak acid and it’s conjugate base. The weak acid neutralizes added base, and the conjugate base neutralizes added acid. Since the differences in pH between 6.0 and 7.0 are so very, very small; a little buffer goes a long way. Additionally the plant itself and the bacteria, fungi, and protozoans in the soil also work to buffer the pH. We will discuss that next.

When a soil grower checks the pH of runoff or the soil they make an assumption that pH is homogenous throughout the medium. In fact, the pH is far from homogenous. It varies across literally millions of tiny micro environments in the soil/root complex. The plant manufactures sugars and signaling molecules (exudates) that are secreted through the roots and encourage certain types of bacteria and fungus to thrive in the immediate proximity of miniscule root fibers. We have all seen the pH/nutrient availability charts that are always posted here on the forum. I do not know who created these tables. They are not referenced. They do not take into account that soil pH is not homogenous to begin with – that the plant itself and the soil biota and buffers in the soil work symbiotically to create micro environments that facilitate nutrient uptake. pH is only one factor in nutrient uptake. The charts also don’t take that into account.

Your affordable pH meter is practically useless between pH 6.0 and 7.0 (or between 7.0 and 8.0.) If you pH test your water with one of those meters and get a reading less than 6.0 or more than 8.0 you need to be concerned with the water quality and adjust a large volume of water until you get a reading between 6.0 and 7.0. You also need to make certain that the meter is calibrated with a known pH test solution before each reading you choose to act upon.

To be frank, I never check pH. I use RO water and a complete organic soil. Because I understand these concepts I was able to build a soil that feeds the plants without messing with bottles of this and that. That's beside the point. I maintain that the pretty chart posted everywhere causes more problems, causes more stress and migraines than any single repetitive post on this whole site.

Your mileage may vary.
 
Hey BAR :thumb:
 
Thanks a lot KingJohnC, I am going to buy those nutes for my next grow I think.

@PeeJay, Thank you so much for that great read,
It sounds very accurate and just plain old right, on the bright side my little plant is full into stretch now, pisils are starting to shoot everywhere!! Also my big plant has clearly taking a hit but the buds are definetley putting weight on, I think the flushing saved its ass to be honest, it looks like its slowly coming back... I absolutely agree with the fact that it doesnt ever seem to be one problem... One thing I have noticed alot in the last week is the main top stem starting to get red lines running up it, which I think is a Magnesium def, again I locked all nutes and burned the little root hairs makes sense it has locked all NPK CA MG out..

Anyway thanks alot for all your help! Keep reading as much as possible, one day Marijuana will be so accepted and that knowledge you have will be worth alot =)
 
Very good PJ! A+ on your pH paper! That said, pH is very difficult to change and keep changed. It is a constant effort which I remedy by using a lot of organic matter. It buffers the pH if it is too high or low. The microbes produce the elements and micro nutrients for the plant and they take that up without as much difficulty if the OM wasn't there to buffer the pH.

Lime can over time change the pH, but it takes probably a year in the ground. In containers, I haven't got a clue how lime can raise the pH in a container. The last thing I'll say is that when you (not you PJ, the proverbial YOU) use synthetic fertilizer it is immediately available in any pH, which is why it works so fast. I'm not saying to stop using synthetic fertilizers, but that organics are slow release and are mainly made available by being digested by microbial activity in the soil...so organic fertilizers definitely work differently in soils regardless what the pH levels are.

Over the years, I find organic matter to remedy elevated or sunken soil pH levels.
What do you think? Anyone?
 
I use compost and tons of organics in my veggie garden, gf. The thing is, I've amended the soil in my garden with so much organic material for so many years, that I have built up a deep loamy soil. When I'm growing say, a tomato plant, it has 2 to 3 feet of this soil beneath it, and about a 10 foot circle of this soil around it before the next plant. So what I'm saying is that using organic materials for plants is ideal for an outdoor, in the ground situation; in a container out- or indoors can't hold enough organic matter to support the plant without adding supplements; capeesh gf.
 
Jaamz, I grow in a complete organic soil in containers and they go the whole cycle without every getting fed anything but RO water. I recently had two plants in the soil in 2 gallon pots for over 130 days under CFLs in my veg box. The plants were root pruned once to keep them short and I didn't treat them very well, but they never had a deficiency. You can see them in my journal.

This plant was grown in a complete organic soil and was only fed water, too:

P1020847.JPG


Another grower has mixed up a batch of soil from my recipe and is very pleased with the results he's seeing. He's not running a journal at the moment.

This is a great journal about complete organic soil, as well:

COorganics - RockyMtnHigh - Perpetual - TLO stylie

COorganics has a link in his signature to a second thread about building soil.

Sapperman is using a specialty complete organic bag soil and getting great results.

Doc Bud's high brix kit is not strictly organic, but so close it doesn't make much difference. His system does use a few foliars and drenches for tweaking, but does not depend on regular feeding.

There are many other examples around if you look.

Reg and I have talked about this before. In his case he doesn't really have a space to mix and store soil. For those who have a spot to mix soil and store it in bins it can be done for about $180 in the case of my recipe and you have a large amount of soil - enough to last the average container grower here for a couple of years. Once you deduct the cost of the soil you would have to buy anyway from the $180 and the cost of all the bottled products you would use... It's a great deal! The freedom from trying to determine the best nutes, how much to feed, worrying about deficiencies and lockouts, etc. is worth its weight in gold. :peace:

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When soil or soil less mix is prepared properly/adequately and you have a timed growing period for which that soil or mix will be making provisions, it is absolutely going to have the ability to reach full potential. Soils with elements added in correct amounts can support an entire grow beginning to end. If this can be achieved outside in soil, it can also be achieved inside in soil less mix. You just have to add everything.
 
jaamzhow said:
Good stuff; you'll never know if the full potential was reached if supplements were added.
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You're right, I'll never know. Been enjoying cannabis for almost 40 years. I'm savvy enough to know that if I'm not reaching peak potential, I'm so close that I'm not going to mess with it.

Show us some of yours? :)
 
I believe I may have an unbelievable coincidence for you all tomorrow so tune in...
 
Alright, let's start by showing you my last Bubble Gummer bean. If this one doesn't sprout there's no Bubble Gum in the near future. I tried something different and tap-rooted in a paper towel instead of my usual seed dish & couldn't believe the length of the tap-root.



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Now for the unbelievable! Last night after coming home from the parade I happened to look under my favorite tree and seen the same thing I seen a year ago. I almost caught a heart attack. The block was crowded so I pretended to ignore it as I didn't want anyone else to see it & beat me to it. I waited until 4:30 this morning when all the night hawks are in for the night and most of the working crowd hasn't left their apts yet. This block has a brief period during the summer when no-one's outside.



The same tree Laverne came from under but this time there was seven seedlings!


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After bringing them upstairs...


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And I have the day off! It's a beautiful Monday & I usually hate Mondays.
 
Brooklyn, I'm like 99% sure it's someone who's rolling up either on our stoop or the building's stoop next door and have seeds in the bag. They're just throwing them under the tree and I just got lucky 2 years in a row. Pj, why would I want to leave them for someone else to find? I caught them early this time because I check the trees on the block on a regular basis. As you can see from the full pic they were barely big enough to spot unless your looking for them. There's no way a plant will ever get to big out on a NYC street. The real funny part is the same tree started my growing career & my membership to 420 last year.



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Yeah, there is probably too much foot traffic for them ever to take hold. It just reminded me of a friend who noticed a pretty good sized plant growing at the edge of a parking lot where he worked. It got pretty damn big before it was weed wacked down by the by the maintenance crew. He watched it for several weeks and thought about tearing it up and shoving it in his trunk but knew it wasn't ready to smoke.
 
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