- Thread starter
- #521
Skybound
Well-Known Member
What app is that? I can't understand what it's showing, but for my micro mix is 3.8~ ml/Gal. Rounding up to even 4 won't hurt anything.
Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates
- Thread starter Skybound
- Start date
It’s called Hydrochondric, I just used it to record the numbers. The numbers on the chart are the gram weight needed to reach the MC numbers.
- Thread starter
- #523
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I can't find anything about it.
Those numbers are the decimal points moved to the left one place.
- Thread starter
- #525
Skybound
Well-Known Member
In Hydro Buddy, when it tells you you need X.YY grams of this and Y.ZZ grams of that etc, those numbers are the ones the decimals are moved, not the actual elemental PPM. I'll demonstrate what I mean. Using your current program of 3.5 grams MC and 1 gram of CM Pro roughly results to the following elemental PPM.
NO3 - 120
NH4 - 7.4
P ------ 30
K ------- 138
Ca ------ 97.5
Mg ------ 35
So to make the same targets with the salts you have, I'll remove MC and CM Pro from HB's Substance list and add all of the profiles I have saved for the salts. Then on the main page, I will input the above numbers as targets. After computing, Hydro Buddy will tell me how many grams of each salt I'll need to weigh out to make a gallon at my desired targets.
As an example, HB tells me I need 1.57 grams of CalNite, but because I mixed all of my salts in water at a 10ml of water to every 1 gram of salt (10:1), I just shift the decimal over 1 place which makes it 15.7ml of CalNite for every gallon of feed I make. The same concept applies to all of the salts (except micro) as all are also a 10:1 mix.
The micro mix is a 1000:1 concentrate and there is enough mixed into that half gallon to make 500 gallons of feed stock, so it will always require 3.8ml per every gallon you make. There is 3.78 liters per gallon and when divided by 1000, it's 3.78ml or 3.8 rounded off.
I entered a few feeding regimens into Hydro Buddy today to see how they compare, and thought I’d post it here. Just plotting what direction to try to move in next. My plants continue to be less than happy. At the moment I’m using Skybound’s targets.
I don’t know why my results would be different than his but there are a few possible variables to blame I suppose.
I’m curious what targets others are aiming at. @farside05 and @FelipeBlu and @whoever else is doing this?
The mixes are the basic recommended ones for those three nutrient lines for mid flower.
I don’t know why my results would be different than his but there are a few possible variables to blame I suppose.
I’m curious what targets others are aiming at. @farside05 and @FelipeBlu and @whoever else is doing this?
The mixes are the basic recommended ones for those three nutrient lines for mid flower.
I’m considering trying these targets.
N- 120
P- 80
K- 220
Mg- 60
Ca- 140
It’s only varying the N and P. Given that I’ve used the Botanicare and Mega Crop feeding routines listed, with semi-reasonable success, and the plants weren’t all that much more screwy than they are now- maybe I’ll just try somewhere in the middle and see what that does
N- 120
P- 80
K- 220
Mg- 60
Ca- 140
It’s only varying the N and P. Given that I’ve used the Botanicare and Mega Crop feeding routines listed, with semi-reasonable success, and the plants weren’t all that much more screwy than they are now- maybe I’ll just try somewhere in the middle and see what that does
- Thread starter
- #528
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I’m considering trying these targets.
N- 120
P- 80
K- 220
Mg- 60
Ca- 140
It’s only varying the N and P. Given that I’ve used the Botanicare and Mega Crop feeding routines listed, with semi-reasonable success, and the plants weren’t all that much more screwy than they are now- maybe I’ll just try somewhere in the middle and see what that does
IDK Botanicare and Remo have their N so low and P so high, but as to Megacrop and Farside, I know he also uses Calmag which ups the N and Protekt(silica) which ups the K, so if you added 5 grams of greenway Calmag or 5ml of Botanicare Calmag (identical formulations) plus 5 grams of silica to the 6 grams of Megacrop, you'll get the following numbers.
For me, I felt that the N was a tad too rich (but have since moved my N closer to that), P was too thin (I raised to 65, then back to 55 in bloom) and K too rich (I'm at 225 currently). I could probably raise my Ca to the 160 above, but so far 140 is just fine. I have my silica at 40 in bloom and 20 in veg due to less soil in veg, so don't want to get carried away with the battle of PH between rich silica and the soil buffer. Plus when I ran GH silica, they kept it at 25 throughout the grow.
You should also reference chapter 5 of that PDF book about the elements. Because I am so forgetful, I frequently read and reread the info about specific elements as my curiosity leads me. Especially in regards to NPK and Mg. The book puts emphasis on throttling the nutes in veg and lessening them in bloom and slowly I am heading that way.
And one final thing I've recently relearned and I should sock myself in the jaw for forgetting is to use beneficial bacteria at least every 10 days throughout the grow. I use Recharge due to convenience, but am inclined to believe it can be made with 1/16th TSP of Great White, 1/4 TSP of the Fulvic/Humic blend and 5ml of unsulfured molasses (the most commonly found kind) into a gallon of RO/distilled/rain and shake till dissolved and use 30 minutes later. This stuff will further arrange the nutes in the soils, clean the root hairs of exudates and generally have something of a flushing effect in the soil. I think this will be the most impactful add to your grow and you should see positive results after about 2-3 innoculations. FWIW, I use roughly 16 ounces per plant in 10 gallon pots and about half that much for veg plants in smaller pots. Recharge, Heisenberg Tea, EWC tea, it's all groovy. My bloom room used to be "off", but now it's for the most part back "On".
Edit - please share some pics of the bad looking plants and the trouble areas. My thin leaf Cheese in week 7 is acting like she doesn't want to stay at the party, but everyone else seems to be having a great time. She starting showing problems 3-4 weeks ago and I started to use Recharge again like a week later.
Just stumbled on this old thread here - which I notice you’ve already seen.
I think every formula listed there uses higher P and lower N than what I’ve been using in bloom. FWIW.
I’m not at my grow at the moment so these are just the two pics I have on hand, of a recent addition to the flower room, looking a bit odd. It’s a Chocolate Mint OG and one of the most indica strains I have in there.
Several of the more advanced flowering plants have extensive dead white leaf patches - I can get pics tonight.
It seems like the more sativa plants have actually been happier than the indica ones. I didn’t want to say that too loudly because it’s still early days - but so far that’s been the case. My sativas have always preferred lighter feeding. So that would suggest it’s not just a case of the mix being too rich.
I’m mostly thinking about N and P at the moment. It was the dark green colour that made me consider dropping the N. But also I’m seeing a lot of blueish tinge/off-color and purple stems, and read that P def can cause greening of the leaves as well. In lots of ways what I read about P def fits with what I’m seeing. Though as usual I’m just guessing -put a blindfold on and play pin the tail on the deficiency...
“When there is a phosphorus deficiency, the lower (oldest) leaves turn dark green. Leaves occasionally get a bluish or bronze tinge, and may thicken or curl downward before exhibiting dark gray, bronze or purplish splotches. Sometimes the stems of the affected leaves will turn bright red or purplish, usually starting from underneath.
It’s common to see a Phosphorus deficiency accompanied by the symptoms of a Calcium deficiency, as those nutrients interact with each other in the plant.”
These aren’t the greatest pics but you can see the colour is sort of off. I took them because the plant is new in flowering and I want to see how it progresses.
When I am in my grow and I look around - everything is looking a little too dark green, but with kind of a flat dull colouration, as opposed to a rich glowing green.
Nutrient Recipes, Formulas, Guidelines, Implementations and Thoughts
I have a spreadsheet that I use to analyze the elemental composition of nutrient mixes - it comes in very handy when comparing products that you may want to purchase. It helps to see the overall effects of a complicated nutrient program... if you will. I realized the other day that I have a...
www.420magazine.com
I think every formula listed there uses higher P and lower N than what I’ve been using in bloom. FWIW.
I’m not at my grow at the moment so these are just the two pics I have on hand, of a recent addition to the flower room, looking a bit odd. It’s a Chocolate Mint OG and one of the most indica strains I have in there.
Several of the more advanced flowering plants have extensive dead white leaf patches - I can get pics tonight.
It seems like the more sativa plants have actually been happier than the indica ones. I didn’t want to say that too loudly because it’s still early days - but so far that’s been the case. My sativas have always preferred lighter feeding. So that would suggest it’s not just a case of the mix being too rich.
I’m mostly thinking about N and P at the moment. It was the dark green colour that made me consider dropping the N. But also I’m seeing a lot of blueish tinge/off-color and purple stems, and read that P def can cause greening of the leaves as well. In lots of ways what I read about P def fits with what I’m seeing. Though as usual I’m just guessing -put a blindfold on and play pin the tail on the deficiency...
“When there is a phosphorus deficiency, the lower (oldest) leaves turn dark green. Leaves occasionally get a bluish or bronze tinge, and may thicken or curl downward before exhibiting dark gray, bronze or purplish splotches. Sometimes the stems of the affected leaves will turn bright red or purplish, usually starting from underneath.
It’s common to see a Phosphorus deficiency accompanied by the symptoms of a Calcium deficiency, as those nutrients interact with each other in the plant.”
These aren’t the greatest pics but you can see the colour is sort of off. I took them because the plant is new in flowering and I want to see how it progresses.
When I am in my grow and I look around - everything is looking a little too dark green, but with kind of a flat dull colouration, as opposed to a rich glowing green.
- Thread starter
- #530
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Before making any drastic changes, consider that P and Ca like to bond and form colloids and precipitate. Microbes can/will break them back apart and feed them into the roots at a later time, but effort should be made to prevent them from bonding in the first place. I know what you mean with the dark green with bluish influence as well as the dull powdery/ashy look, I think this is also P related, though I'm not yet certain how it affects that. I got my veg dialed in really good now and possibly because I root in cubes, then pot up to croutons to get a head start of rapid growth before the dirt, but all of my small plants look great and don't start to get that shitty look about them till late veg when I put the biggest one in the 10 gal bag, but it does abate after the first week of bloom where they get the inoculations of Recharge (bennies), so maybe that is the defining factor. I just crunched Jack's 321 for a grower on another forum, so maybe these numbers might be something for you to consider emulating?
I doubt you'd be able to hit that much sulfur (sadly), but everything else is achievable. Low N, moderately high P and low K. IMO, there's plenty of room to add more K and N to that, so it could be filled out using more K Nite and/or silica which has an equal amount of K to Si more or less.
I doubt you'd be able to hit that much sulfur (sadly), but everything else is achievable. Low N, moderately high P and low K. IMO, there's plenty of room to add more K and N to that, so it could be filled out using more K Nite and/or silica which has an equal amount of K to Si more or less.
- Thread starter
- #531
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Here's some pics from veg. The purplish top and blotches are from the same PC, the others are small veg plants that are looking all shiny and brixy.
I notice that your jack’s formula recreation is basically the exact same NPK ratios as your targets, but watered down by 30%. Along with higher Mg and somewhat higher Ca.
Thanks for the ideas. My main concern right now is to get the bulk of the plants on some sort of diet where they are not too unhappy. I have a bunch of young clones almost ready to do some side-by-side tests with, and I can subject those ones to whatever torture I want. But I would like it if I could get the main part of the grow on a half decent diet in the meantime.
Probably my safest bet is to try a lighter nutrient mix and some bennies to start. Whatever else they have going on, the plants don’t look underfed.
Thanks for the ideas. My main concern right now is to get the bulk of the plants on some sort of diet where they are not too unhappy. I have a bunch of young clones almost ready to do some side-by-side tests with, and I can subject those ones to whatever torture I want. But I would like it if I could get the main part of the grow on a half decent diet in the meantime.
Probably my safest bet is to try a lighter nutrient mix and some bennies to start. Whatever else they have going on, the plants don’t look underfed.
- Thread starter
- #533
Skybound
Well-Known Member
FWIW, I am only very pleased with my early to mid veg. After that is where I see problems that still need to be corrected, though I would say they're in a tolerable state, so my concern is lessened. My bloom is far from good, my yields are still not what I know they could be. I believe that Jack's 3-2-1 regimen would be good for Sativa dom plants, but most of mine are Indy dom so the cuisine preferences are different, though I'm still feeling around in the dark for what exactly that is. My regimen is more closer to Megacrop than Jack's. Maybe I should incorporate water drenches into my routine to keep the soil from getting too congested with salts? Maybe I should read more of that book other than just Chapter 5 alone, lol?
I’ve generally been happy with mine up until at least mid flower. Now I’m only happy with them till the start of flower.
The fact that I grew for years on that botanicare routine, and my plants were somewhat better than they are at the moment, tends to pull me in the direction of lower N.
Using those nutrients I never felt like I had any N issues. With Mega Crop and also your targets, I feel like the plants are too dark a shade of green.
As for the P, I’m not sure, but the purple stems and off-colour could point in that direction.
Not confident about betting the farm on any particular mix at the moment, but they’re going to have to eat something. Might have to sacrifice a chicken and consult the entrails or something.... I think maybe I’ll torture the one I posted with my N and P theories, and look for some sort of ‘safe middle road‘ mix with the rest, if I can.
Edit. Decided to just go ahead and mix up something for them all with reduced N and slightly higher P.
NO3- 130
NH4- 5
P- 71.5
K- 222
Mg- 64
Ca- 140
The fact that I grew for years on that botanicare routine, and my plants were somewhat better than they are at the moment, tends to pull me in the direction of lower N.
Using those nutrients I never felt like I had any N issues. With Mega Crop and also your targets, I feel like the plants are too dark a shade of green.
As for the P, I’m not sure, but the purple stems and off-colour could point in that direction.
Not confident about betting the farm on any particular mix at the moment, but they’re going to have to eat something. Might have to sacrifice a chicken and consult the entrails or something.... I think maybe I’ll torture the one I posted with my N and P theories, and look for some sort of ‘safe middle road‘ mix with the rest, if I can.
Edit. Decided to just go ahead and mix up something for them all with reduced N and slightly higher P.
NO3- 130
NH4- 5
P- 71.5
K- 222
Mg- 64
Ca- 140
- Thread starter
- #535
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I found this interesting little excerpt from Chapter 5/Nitrogen
I've been contemplating upping the K, but perhaps a better idea is to nudge down the N. The above implies to start low and gradually increase to prevent a toxicity. I'm still perplexed why my week 7 bloom plants sometimes get all sorts of yellowing going on though. I wonder if early life N buildups caused problems that catch up to them at the end of life?
Edit - considering the above, I tried reducing Farside's magic Megacrop formula and I'm liking this, I think I might try it, perhaps with more P though.
I've been contemplating upping the K, but perhaps a better idea is to nudge down the N. The above implies to start low and gradually increase to prevent a toxicity. I'm still perplexed why my week 7 bloom plants sometimes get all sorts of yellowing going on though. I wonder if early life N buildups caused problems that catch up to them at the end of life?
Edit - considering the above, I tried reducing Farside's magic Megacrop formula and I'm liking this, I think I might try it, perhaps with more P though.
I am going to check out that e-book more tonight. I confess I haven’t put much time into it.
It does seem to me like we are just flailing away trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean it just seems odd that we haven’t nailed this feeding stuff down yet. Surely some lab somewhere could answer these questions with a little effort?
Yet in the context of cannabis forums the work you’re doing here is pretty groundbreaking, and I think if we keep flailing away it it we will figure it out.
Seems like there’s quite a lot of wiggle room for different feeding levels. Although, if there’s so much wiggle room, I just wish I could wiggle my way into the good zone.
In that link to the thread I posted a few posts back, it shows some crazy high nitrogen ranges in veg, but not so much in flowering. All the feeding schedules there except for maybe one show quite low nitrogen- like around 100 ppm.
It does seem to me like we are just flailing away trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean it just seems odd that we haven’t nailed this feeding stuff down yet. Surely some lab somewhere could answer these questions with a little effort?
Yet in the context of cannabis forums the work you’re doing here is pretty groundbreaking, and I think if we keep flailing away it it we will figure it out.
Seems like there’s quite a lot of wiggle room for different feeding levels. Although, if there’s so much wiggle room, I just wish I could wiggle my way into the good zone.
In that link to the thread I posted a few posts back, it shows some crazy high nitrogen ranges in veg, but not so much in flowering. All the feeding schedules there except for maybe one show quite low nitrogen- like around 100 ppm.
- Thread starter
- #537
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I am going to check out that e-book more tonight. I confess I haven’t put much time into it.
It does seem to me like we are just flailing away trying to reinvent the wheel. I mean it just seems odd that we haven’t nailed this feeding stuff down yet. Surely some lab somewhere could answer these questions with a little effort?
Yet in the context of cannabis forums the work you’re doing here is pretty groundbreaking, and I think if we keep flailing away it it we will figure it out.
Seems like there’s quite a lot of wiggle room for different feeding levels. Although, if there’s so much wiggle room, I just wish I could wiggle my way into the good zone.
In that link to the thread I posted a few posts back, it shows some crazy high nitrogen ranges in veg, but not so much in flowering. All the feeding schedules there except for maybe one show quite low nitrogen- like around 100 ppm.
You definitely could send your leaves to labs and get diagnoses done and recommendations made, but that's more commitment than I ever wanted to invest. It's sad that after all of these years, making our own formulations is still "ground breaking", this information should be already plotted out by people smarter than us, especially after the advent of the interwebs.
I tried to look up that info posted by that other grower in that other thread, but it seems there is a LOT of duplicate posts on that thread and it's only on the first page with no interaction afterwards. He has 2 journals, one of which has been removed from the site, and the other he seems to be using AN nutes.
GreatLife4All RDWC WW 1000W Grow
TBH, I had WAY more success when I grew in croutons, but I'm no longer in those and having been inching my way around ever since in the peat moss. I'm not a big fan of the peat moss, but as it turns out, I'm even less of a fan of paying $40 for every 2 cubic feet of croutons, of which I've never reused. Because it costs me $40 for essentially 150 gallons of soil via using the same 50 gallons 3 times, to me it's worth the draw backs. Cheap nutes, cheap media, cheap electric bills, cheap water bills, it seems my highest priority is cheap, lol.
I remember you mentioned something at one point about peat and it possibly having an interaction with K. I have wondered why my results would be different than yours were in the rock wool.
Oh well, i am still growing plants and producing bud. I guess we will continue to flail away at it. I do believe the peat I’ve been digging up by my place is a lot better quality than the promix stuff, which seems like a bunch of dust.
Oh well, i am still growing plants and producing bud. I guess we will continue to flail away at it. I do believe the peat I’ve been digging up by my place is a lot better quality than the promix stuff, which seems like a bunch of dust.
- Thread starter
- #539
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Per Mr Brix, his recipe offered almost no K due to hist tests revealing that ProMix (peat) has a lot of organic K in it, though that is K that requires microbes to make it ionic, and our peat isn't exactly LOS. Starting Saturday, I will begin using the lower N MC regimen. It's near a 3-1-4 ratio and my hope is the lower N will allow for better root development which will translate to better shoot development as well. I'm not one that believes in ratios, but I'm also not going to rule them out as a good landmark to begin a new search. I'll have results to share in about 2 weeks, maybe more.
- Thread starter
- #540
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I just learned something new about Hydro Buddy. As it turns out, we can target Sulfur, we just have to change the element listed in the Degree of Freedom button as Sulfur is the default. I just change mine to any of the micros as they're not being considered for any of the macro changes.
