Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates

YellowBelly said:
Hello skybound. My brain hurts at the work you've put in and I salute you. :thumb: Going to your earlier post about micro-nutrient deficiencies in the GH range that you experienced. Bear in mind hydro is new to me and very much learning. Looking at an element absorption vs pH chart, it seems that there is a "hole" between the manganese and calcium absorption where you can either optimise pH for one or the other but not both. This what I'm looking at:

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Would increasing the manganese part with a chelated supplement improve its absorption by the plant if you optimised the pH for calcium to 6? My thinking is that everything would be within absorption range then at 6.
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That chart is kind of misleading and gives the viewer the impression that there is a gap where one or the other is available. I "believe" this chart better depicts how things are. In this one, it shows what is ideal, but also allows for uptake at different rates at less than ideal ph.

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Here's a great read that is sure to cross the eyes and may take a few sittings to digest, but it exhaustively explains the special requirements of chelates, and why ph ranges should be held to what we've been taught when we first got into hydro .... 5.8.

Chelates in Hydroponic Solutions | Hydroponics
 
Skybound said:
That chart is kind of misleading and gives the viewer the impression that there is a gap where one or the other is available. I "believe" this chart better depicts how things are. In this one, it shows what is ideal, but also allows for uptake at different rates at less than ideal ph.

1742672
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If you note, yours is for 'most plants', so the apparent range will 'smear' wider. The one I've put up states it's cannabis-specific. I'll look a bit deeper into that and check my reference source.
 
Skybound said:
Here's a great read that is sure to cross the eyes and may take a few sittings to digest, but it exhaustively explains the special requirements of chelates, and why ph ranges should be held to what we've been taught when we first got into hydro .... 5.8.

Chelates in Hydroponic Solutions | Hydroponics
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Thanks. I'll check it out. :thumb: I actually surmised from my chart, as it stood, that the best compromise was 5.8.
 
YellowBelly said:
If you note, yours is for 'most plants', so the apparent range will 'smear' wider. The one I've put up states it's cannabis-specific. I'll look a bit deeper into that and check my reference source.
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Beyond the differences between the charts, I have no explanation that will fill in the blanks, sorry. I'm just a guy looking to make better nute solutions and have zero training aside from joining other forums and questioning those that have more info to share.
 
Skybound said:
Beyond the differences between the charts, I have no explanation that will fill in the blanks, sorry. I'm just a guy looking to make better nute solutions and have zero training aside from joining other forums and questioning those that have more info to share.
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I understand. I'm the same. My growing interest is in how plants interact with their symbionts, They might be the missing link in what limits nutrient uptake . This abstract gives a very short overview of the idea:

 
YellowBelly said:
Do you grow in a sterile or inoculated environment?
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Live! I started using H2O2 and still got pythium. I've not seen that shit since I started brewing Heisenberg Tea. I wouldn't go so far as to say my grow media itself is live, just that I inoculate about twice a week as a preventative measure.
 
Skybound said:
Live! I started using H2O2 and still got pythium. I've not seen that shit since I started brewing Heisenberg Tea. I wouldn't go so far as to say my grow media itself is live, just that I inoculate about twice a week as a preventative measure.
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Slime is something I'm learning about too. That article you linked led me onto a great trail of articles. I found out my idea may cause other minerals not to be absorbed, so that got answered in the negative. Anyway, I shan't distract you anymore from your own journey. Thanks again. :):)
 
YellowBelly said:
Slime is something I'm learning about too. That article you linked led me onto a great trail of articles. I found out my idea may cause other minerals not to be absorbed, so that got answered in the negative. Anyway, I shan't distract you anymore from your own journey. Thanks again. :):)
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If you're having troubles with slime, Google search "DWC Root Slime" and find a thread on RIU. I'd link you, but the mods would blow a gasket. Look into "Heisenberg Tea" which is just a common Aerated Compost Tea (ACT) which is a prerequisite for organic growing, but is also the trick for successful hydro growing, especially water cultures.
 
Cheers. I'm pre-empting and learning about potential issues atm before I start my hydro grow. I will be using mycorrihza and bacteria anyway but sometimes too much of something can be a bad thing and that's part of my study. I don't know what species the slime is yet and whether the 'good guys' create it if they overpopulate the res. - or is it just phytium?
 
pythium is in the air, so naturally finds it's way into the water. I've not delved too deeply into the various species of bad microbes due to the confusing latin naming conventions, it's like reading biblical geneologies, but more or less, my understanding is that using beneficial bacteria is a preventative measure, and the more diverse you can make your colonies, the more bad microbes that'll be able to combat. So while there may likely be several bad microbes in my media or water, their ranks will not be getting replenished twice weekly whereas the beneficial microbes I use will.
 
Skybound said:
pythium is in the air, so naturally finds it's way into the water. I've not delved too deeply into the various species of bad microbes due to the confusing latin naming conventions, it's like reading biblical geneologies, but more or less, my understanding is that using beneficial bacteria is a preventative measure, and the more diverse you can make your colonies, the more bad microbes that'll be able to combat. So while there may likely be several bad microbes in my media or water, their ranks will not be getting replenished twice weekly whereas the beneficial microbes I use will.
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Have you got mychorrizas (root fungus) in your tea mix; they will improve nutrient uptake.
 
YellowBelly said:
Have you got mychorrizas (root fungus) in your tea mix; they will improve nutrient uptake.
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Yeah, I use Great White, plus a few other products. Great White has an extremely diverse colony.
 
Just adding to the record that I suspect the 1000 gallon mix of targeted micro sulfates already oxidized, well maybe just the iron sulfate as the water turned orange like dirty river water. So I may contract a deficiency in my tanks. I ordered all chelated metals and they should arrive Monday, at which point I will waste the sulfate micros and mix up chelated micros, then replace all of my sites immediately, then get back to growing. I will then expect to be fully complete in this search. I also believe to have very good ratios of everything, Macros, Secondaries and trace elements. I also anticipate to simplify my feed charts and should have content to share sometime next week.
 
I swapped out the micro mix made of sulfates to an all chelated micro mix and it is holding stable. That being said, here are my recipes to make concentrates. For the record, I mix 1 gallon of micro mix, then halve that into 1/2 gallon jugs for compact storage.

Chelated Micro Mix.JPG


When mixing reservoirs, I add 3.78ml per gallon of the above solution. To mix metric volumes, divide the grams by 3.78, though I encourage making 4 liters at a time if doing so as the Molybdate quantity is super duper small respectively. This is the perfect base of micro nutrients that was given to me by a more seasoned user on RIU. So far, I am not seeing any issues at all in my plants regarding micro nutrient concerns.

To mix other components, just add the same weight of each component to a half gallon or whole gallon of RO water. FYI, the closer to zero the RO is, the more precise your nutrients will be, though I am finding that a certain degree of deviation to be totally acceptable. That said, my RO is 10-12 TDS, plus my salts likely have been contaminated by humidity to a minor degree. I've not cared enough to bake my salts before weighing, though some choose to. I am content with the deviations.

378.54 grams to make 1 gallon.
189.27 grams to make 1/2 gallon

When doing it this way, the concentration is only 10% of the volume, so therefore when Hydro Buddy tells me I need 0.572 grams of XXX component, I merely shift the decimal over one position and round off the rest as I see fit. With things like PK or sulfur, I tend to round up for bloom, or calcium nitrate for veg. Beyond that, here are the remaining salts I use;

Magnesium Nitrate
Magnesium Sulfate (Epsom Salt)
Monopotassium Phosphate (MKP)
Potassium Silicate
Potassium Phosphate
Calcium Nitrate

That's it. Nothing else is needed. When mixing, I add the silica first, micros second and calcium last. I also use an optional fulvic humic blend greatly reduced from the suggested dose, but to no degree of accuracy as this stuff is difficult to mix into a concentrate. I generally mix it at a 1/4 strength of 189 grams, and still not all of it liquefies. And when dosing it, I further reduce as desired. Any amount of it will assist in plant vigor as well as helping to chelate the calcium in the reservoir.
 
Here is a great explanation why EC/TDS pens are misleading. In short, each of the elements in our nutes have different specific conductivities so essentially the EC of 10PPM of Copper would be much higher than the EC of 10PPM of say calcium.

What are the limitations of EC in hydroponics ?


The first limitation arises because of the chemical character of the property we are measuring. Since EC is proportional to the amount of dissolved salts in each solution, you could suppose that measuring EC would always allow you to calculate nutrient concentrations within your nutrient solution. This is wrong ! Salts increase conductivity but each different ion present inside the solution has a different specific conductivity (they contribute differently to the overall EC) so you could in fact be deceived because you could just have a small amount of an ion that conducts a lot or too much of an ion with a small conductivity. Of paramount importance are the ions that determine pH which have conductivities hundreds of times larger than other ions.
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Skybound said:
Here is a great explanation why EC/TDS pens are misleading. In short, each of the elements in our nutes have different specific conductivities so essentially the EC of 10PPM of Copper would be much higher than the EC of 10PPM of say calcium.
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Yes, it seems, from that article, it is most useful for measuring water loss, because as the water is transpired by the plant and plain old evaporation, the TDS levels rise and therefore water should be added to bring the TDS reading back to the original. When the TDS readings start to fall to 70% of the original, the tank should be refilled with new solution. One should not add more nutrients to the existing solution because one does not know the ratio of the original nutrients that are left in the solution, and what the plants needs, so the safest course is to replace it. It says the pH should always be set first to the usual value before reading TDS levels.

Considering the above: If we maintain the water level at a set point in the tank, does it follow that we just need to track the fall in conductivity (to 70% of the original value) after correcting the pH?
 
YellowBelly said:
Considering the above: If we maintain the water level at a set point in the tank, does it follow that we just need to track the fall in conductivity (to 70% of the original value) after correcting the pH?
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I'm not understanding your question the way it's asked.

Tracking conductivity, at least if done with sensors and code would likely not be possible as we have no way of knowing at all times the health of the roots or when each plant will choose to uptake from the water that's running over it's roots. For me, I observe, but don't track if you can comprehend the difference. Generally speaking, I notice this fall between weeks 3 till about 6 of bloom. Also in mid-late veg, but this is not a science that can be predicted and is likely reliant on my ability to keep the roots in supreme condition at all times which itself is beyond my ability to guarantee. Of course I will always intend to give/do my my best, how my efforts are realized is between the plants and God and is out of my control.
 
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