Landrace Genetics 101

Oh wait....why should they settle for 50 bucks or 35 bucks when they can fleece us for a couple bills.

Many things cost more when bought in lower quantities (just another "tax on the poor," I suppose). I have no idea whether or not cannabis seeds are like this, but I suspect they are.

More options is my complaint.

:thumb:

I don't want to have to ask 4 or 5 people if they want to go in on a pack of seeds.

I don't blame you. It's an option, though (and one that still gives the generally lower prices that buying "full" packs might provide) . There was definitely a lot less anxiety involved when I split a side of dead cow with people than when I split a cannabis seed order. And I didn't have to worry that someone would feel shorted if their cut of beef didn't turn into a steak, lol.

I noticed that Ace Seeds provides an option for those who do not wish to purchase their regular-sized packages. I think they label them as breeders' packs. Obviously not the "different size" option that you're looking for. And I don't see me being able to buy such things any time soon (as in, this lifetime). But I'm happy that someone did - because I ended up with some interesting seeds and crosses of the same. I cannot even speculate as to whether the person would have done the various breeding operations if he hadn't had so many potential parental plants. But I wonder.

In regards to that whole "Pick & Mix" business model, who packages the seeds? I know that Barney's Farm produces carded single seeds (because I've ended up with several). But are they all like that, or do some sellers simply split up bulk(?) packages? The latter means the customer has to trust the seller to be honest (but that's always the case, to one degree or other), but allows for the possibility of being able to purchase any quantity of any seed (that the seedbank stocks).

What I wonder is, why aren't seeds seen with the same, "You get what you pay for," mentality as everything else is evaluated on in this world? I mean, time and time again if you see one light, or one car, or one *insert conumer item here* compared to the other, and someone prefers the more expensive one, or the cheaper one breaks, they will invariably declare, "You get what you pay for!" as if to imply that paying a premium will always net better results, and avoiding the premium will always invite Murphy's law.

I used to follow the automobile industry fairly closely, and Mercedes Benz (not exactly priced like Yugos were) ended up at or near the bottom of quite a few "customer satisfaction" type surveys. Of course, the surveys were in Europe, where the average car buyer seems to care more about quality (or at least understand the definition of the term :rolleyes: ) and there appear to be more choices, at least in the price ranges that Mercedes "competes" in.

But when it comes to seeds I don't see people have nearly the same confidence in that consumerist law.

It's not a law, it's just something that people who pay a lot for things hope to be true. And, I guess, something that people who don't pay a lot for things hope isn't true.

Take something like Sensi seeds. They've won more cannabis cups than I care to go count, they have basically every classic A-name strain in their seed banks, and yet people scoff at paying the prices they want for them despite the fact that if you turn around and go order one of those same generic strains from another bank at a cheaper price, their results of quality may vary.

I am kind of a fan of Sensi Seeds. I have bought some decent commercial strains from the Dronkers family over the years. Their products... I started to type that they're not cheap - and, with some of their strains, this is true - but then I recalled that their Hindu Kush is €15 for three (or €45 for ten), their Sensi Skunk is €15 for three, their Skunk #1 is €15 for three... and their Mexican Sativa is only €16.50 for three (or €42.50 for ten). But, anyway, they've also spent a lot of the money they've made... on increasing cannabis-awareness - and not just the "drug" aspect, either; I'd love to go spend a day touring the museum.
30 years of Sensi Seeds – An interview with Ben Dronkers
30 Years of Sensi Seeds - from an overwhelming passion to an unshakable vision
Ben Dronkers - Sensi Seeds
I hope he has lots of money. He's spent/invested/donated millions of dollars for cannabis. He has been arrested many times in the general pursuit of his passion. He lots of strains. And Sensi Seeds has quietly been sponsoring this forum for years without, as far as I know, ever advertising any of his wares on the forum or receiving any notice other than the banner ad and place on our list of sponsors. In other words, it would be very hard to quantify any direct return on his investment. And, while I like to think that our favorite forum is special, I suspect that Sensi Seeds has spent money with most of them. The indirect benefit is obvious, I guess; more people growing means more people buying seeds in general and, undoubtedly, some of them purchase his seeds. Nonetheless, I think he'd be supporting "the industry" even if he wasn't making bank off of it. It's that whole "passion" thing.

Those "copies" of strains that you mentioned, that seems like another reason to charge whatever you can get, lol. If, every time you turn around, there's another seedbank selling a knock-off of "a famous strain," then the originator is going to be moving less volume (and not receiving a penny for each knock-off that a competitor sells). Also, there's that whole (presumed) guilt by "association" thing going on - if someone reads that the Jack Herer strain is decent, tries another breeder's version, is disappointed, tries a couple other breeders' versions, is disapointed again... then the person might just decide that Jack Herer is an overblown strain that isn't very good. And he might happily tell everyone who will listen (and/or post about it to random thousands of people on a forum) .

I'm not trying to say anything about the Jack Herer strain's quality; I just picked it for an example because people can find the name in many breeders' catalogs.

So why is it suddenly NOT okay to pay a premium to seed banks with lots of clout and reputability and a premium that implies that consumerist law of better results? People just seem to be far, far more cynical about seeds. I guess that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's just something I've noticed.

Ya got me. Maybe it's because everybody knows how easy it is "to make a seed" - but that less know the work involved in developing a line (especially one that is even relatively stable). Or that they do not factor in the fact that it's usually harder to vanish when the rozzers are looking for you when you own a world-famous cannabis business than when you're just some guy renting an apartment and growing a few plants (or even a few dozen) .

IDK. Maybe a better question is why would anyone balk about paying even the highest retail prices for cannabis seeds... and then buy a bunch of products from Advanced Nutrients :rofl: ? Okay, I had a little fun typing that one in, but you can substitute most any nutrient company (that targets cannabis growers) and it'd still be a valid question; that's just the only brand that I once read someone could spend $1,200 on getting all the recommended base and supplement products. But, be that as it may, the main ingredient in just about any liquid nutrient is... water. We could spend a few hundred dollars on bulk dry components and have a lifetime supply of nutrients, tailored to fit any strain that we wanted to grow. But we don't, for the most part.

Then the other thing about seed shopping that perplexes me... If you order a F1 hybrid from a seedbank, and you get a particular cut that you like and you run it for a while, and go back and order more of those F1 seeds, the chances that you'll get the same particular cut out of 10 seeds is very low.

Actually, I'd think that the chances would be fairly high. Isn't that the main reason that most of the commercial fruit/vegetable plants sold to gardeners are F₁s, so that the customer gets the same thing, every time?

The thing is, most strains sold aren't exactly F₁s. That sort of implies that both parents were "pure," doesn't it? But most commercial strains appear to be crosses of crosses... of crosses.

If I save the seeds from a couple of Better Boy tomatoes and grow them out next year, I'll have a lot of tomato plants - that don't produce the same size/shape/flavor of fruit.

I have a couple Serious Seeds Bubble Gum seeds. I read on their website that this is "the only inbred strain (not a F1 hybrid) on the Serious menu." I don't know (been too many years since high school biology and, besides, I was as high as possible every single day back then ;) ), but I am under the impression that this means, if I try to grow them, both germinate/sprout, and I end up with one of each sex... that I could leave them in the same space during flowering and I'd end up with a few thousand seeds that, on average, all produced plants that were recognizably Serious Seeds Bubble Gum (and that the bud that these plants produced would be, too).

I could be wrong. If so, I hope someone comes along and schools me on it.

Properly phenohunting a F1 hybrid takes hundreds if not thousands of seeds to sort through.

That's because those hundreds if not thousands of seeds that you've produced are no longer F₁ seeds, lol, they're F₂s - and that's if the seeds that produced the plants that produced the seeds you're hunting through... were actually F₁ seeds to begin with. IOW, if the breeder you've bought the strain from created it by crossing two pure landraces/IBL (yes, I know, I'm using the two terms indiscriminately when they aren't interchangeable), then those seeds would be F₁s.

I have a friend working for a recreational farm doing a phenohunt on some strain, and they've thrown away close to 1000 plants and have 1 cut of it so far.

I think I went through like five packs of Nevil Schoenmakers' Haze back in the day before deciding on two keepers - and I thought that was a pain, lol.

Some days I find myself wishing that every seed from any given pack all grew into the same phenotype. Other days, I remember that what I love might not be seen as desirable by others (and vice versa).
 
You can't keep charging the top dollars if you don't look after parent plants, like some company's have over the years.. their quality has gone, nothing like they once were. who was running the company when it was at the top :rofl:
 
Yeah, some of these expensive seeds are also a bit of a crapshoot. Ya know they haven't run generations of careful crosses and produced F8s. These are likely F3s at best. It's not at all rare to get a bum pheno.
 
I have run two of Sensi's strains.....their Northern Lights in a 15 gallon pot of my soil and got a pound of dried buds off her. Very potent night time meds.

Also grew their Hindu Kush and it is one of the frostiest strains I have grown with some serious dank smells. It gave Ms Stank just over 6 zips.

Both strains are some of the better smoke (indica wise) and I highly recommend buying their stuff. I have been skeptical of buying a 10 pack of regular Jack Herer seeds for the price they charge. Well after going 2 for 2 with their strains, I have very little reservation about their gear.
 
If you were my neighbor, you might have been able to talk me into splitting my pack of Jack Herer seeds with you... before I ended up losing most of them. I think I still have one left :rolleyes: , which I hope to try to grow next year.

I wouldn't mind trying their Mexican Sativa. I know it's not a pure sativa, and at an estimated 50-70 day flowering period, it might not even be the advertised 70%. But it's listed on their website at €24.01 ($27.93US) for ten regular seeds, so it's definitely cheap. More to the point, I've always had a soft spot for Mexican genetics. "The main ancestor and parent of the Mexican Sativa seed-strain is a prized cultivar from the southern province of Oaxaca. To adapt this exotic Sativa for flowering in the northern summer, it was infused with genes from Durban - the famously hardy African Sativa - as well as from a fast-flowering Pakistani hash plant. The best seed offspring were then back-crossed to the Oaxacan line to maintain the distinctive qualities of the original strain. Mexican Sativa fuses the subtle flavours of three continents within her long, delicate buds. Notes of sandalwood and aniseed are wrapped up in the sharp, fresh, resin-tinged scent of the Oaxacan original."

Personally, I'd rather score a pack of seeds from that Oaxacan. I could add some African genetics (but they wouldn't be from Durban Poison) if I felt the need, and I'd skip the Indica and just expect long flowering times. I'd be growing it indoors, anyway, so December is as good a month as any to harvest, lol.
 
It's good smoke man. Impressed the shit out of me. I like combining the two (NL and Hindu) for the perfect night time med. The NL gets my eyes heavy but does little for the mind. The Hindu doesn't make me sleepy but it shit the mind off. The two together are my perfect night time meds. Gonna to a cross of the two cuts and see what it does!
 
I have run two of Sensi's strains.....their Northern Lights in a 15 gallon pot of my soil and got a pound of dried buds off her. Very potent night time meds.

Also grew their Hindu Kush and it is one of the frostiest strains I have grown with some serious dank smells. It gave Ms Stank just over 6 zips.

Both strains are some of the better smoke (indica wise) and I highly recommend buying their stuff. I have been skeptical of buying a 10 pack of regular Jack Herer seeds for the price they charge. Well after going 2 for 2 with their strains, I have very little reservation about their gear.
I still think you need to try their Superbud. Not a landrace but probably the finest hybrid I've smoked if not the best weed in general. Too bad it's about 200 for 10 and they'll ONLY sell 10.

They seem to be a lot better about offering low seed count packs of their feminized varieties, I wonder if this is why people often get the notion that feminized seeds are so inferior. I think it'd be worth it if you just wanted to try their stuff to see how it turns out.
 
So when I inbreed my Red Point crosses, the F1s, i will have even more phenos? That actually sounds like a darn good deal, and I believe I already knew this from research but it apparently didn't sink in.

First progeny of two unrelated parents.. true hybrid vigour... Not easy to do buying from seedbanks.. landrace threads like this are a blessing....
 
I still think you need to try their Superbud. Not a landrace but probably the finest hybrid I've smoked if not the best weed in general. Too bad it's about 200 for 10 and they'll ONLY sell 10.

Did it smell like pineapple? I thought about growing that one but reading that it had a relatively large number of phenotypes kind of turned me off of the idea. Seems like I read it could produce eight or so, but IDK personally.
 
First progeny of two unrelated parents.. true hybrid vigour... Not easy to do buying from seedbanks.. landrace threads like this are a blessing....
Luckily mine came via 2 hours up the road from a black market outdoor grow. My F1s are truly irreplaceable. I have two growing right now, they grow faster than anything else I have ever run, but far from the fastest flowering. Seemingly bulletproof.

I would like to make f2s, lots of f2s, and hunt for Columbian phenos. Seems time consuming. Lol
 
I still think you need to try their Superbud. Not a landrace but probably the finest hybrid I've smoked if not the best weed in general. Too bad it's about 200 for 10 and they'll ONLY sell 10.

They seem to be a lot better about offering low seed count packs of their feminized varieties, I wonder if this is why people often get the notion that feminized seeds are so inferior. I think it'd be worth it if you just wanted to try their stuff to see how it turns out.
Its on my radar along with a few other strains that Sensi has.
 
Seeds are worth what people are willing to pay for it......no different than any other product out there.
Which is why if some folks aren't willing to pay for it, then they are not worth it to them.

Also points to one of the big problems with a market economy. Air & water do not have a monetary price, so people are not willing to pay anything for them...ultimately considered of little worth, though they both are fundamental requirements of life on the planet. Which is reflected in the current status of both.

Old saw: an economist is someone who knows the price of many things, but the worth of nothing.

Monetary costs are not a measure of worth. If anyone thinks otherwise, try going without "free" air for 20 minutes or "free" water for 3 days.
 
I don't know about you, but I get a water bill every month. On top of that, the quality of that water sucks so I don't drink it, I buy from a local spring so I am paying addition for any water I use for consumption. Pretty sure those that have wells pay for pumps and the service of those systems so they can get the water they need. Nothing about that is free. So not really sure your point but ok!
 
Thinking about it, perhaps maybe you are meaning to say monetary costs aren't a measure of necessity??? Or perhaps that can be debunked by saying that 'necessity' can mean different things to different people. I often wonder how many people I walk by on a daily basis even care about anything other than the commercialization of everything that big corporations want us to think are 'necessities'. Bet if you ask the citizens of NYC what they couldn't do without.....that list would be drastically different than those asked out in the rural bread basket of the country. And sorry for rank.....very medicated at the moment so the confusion was sincere and the statement above was a side thought of that confusion. Cheers brother!
 
I don't know about you, but I get a water bill every month. On top of that, the quality of that water sucks so I don't drink it, I buy from a local spring so I am paying addition for any water I use for consumption. Pretty sure those that have wells pay for pumps and the service of those systems so they can get the water they need. Nothing about that is free. So not really sure your point but ok!
Although water bills are partially predicated on the volume used, what one's paying for is the development and maintenance of the delivery infrastructure.

Water's still free. If one wants to do the work of precipitation (source of all potable water supplies) collection or pay for construction of their own domestic well, the water itself is free, free, free.

BTW, I knew the billing issue for water delivered iby piped water delivery systems/utilities would arise...it's related to what I did professionally for more than 35 yrs ;)

& water delivery utilities are a classic example of where municipal, governmentally owned & administered utilities are >>>>than private enterprises of the same ilk. On average, the latter are usually barely better than awful. & horribly expensive, too. As I recall, on average, about 35% more than comparable municipal services, as of about 15 yrs ago.
 
Thinking about it, perhaps maybe you are meaning to say monetary costs aren't a measure of necessity??? Or perhaps that can be debunked by saying that 'necessity' can mean different things to different people. I often wonder how many people I walk by on a daily basis even care about anything other than the commercialization of everything that big corporations want us to think are 'necessities'. Bet if you ask the citizens of NYC what they couldn't do without.....that list would be drastically different than those asked out in the rural bread basket of the country. And sorry for rank.....very medicated at the moment so the confusion was sincere and the statement above was a side thought of that confusion. Cheers brother!
No need for an apology & glad your medicated!:p

Re: what folks view as important: in studies of smaller rural towns, researchers found that the citizens would prefer to give up their local post office before giving up the sole local tavern! Having lived most of my life in unincorporated areas in empty parts of the western US outback, I was thoroughly unsurprised by this finding.
 
How would someone pay for something that no one owns? Just curious. Who would charge for "air" or "water"? Or course the american government thinks they own water apparently as countless people have been arrested for harvesting rain water. So tough to use things that no one owns as examples of applying 'worth' in my mind.

I prefer legit tangible items that are produced. I find it amazing that people will spend hundreds on phones (and upgrade to the newest one every 6 months) and then bitch about the cost of free range chicken eggs or organic produce. Or hell.....sneakers. Ain't no freaking way I am paying 200 bucks for a pair of sneakers. Work boots....hell yeah! If you are on your feet all day for work, especially those of us that worked long days (all my days were 12-16 hour days occasionally 20+ hours long) and you can't put a price on not being in pain. I won't blink at 200 bucks for comfy boots that will last me a year. I would much rather buy a greenhouse so I can grow more of my own veggies for longer than buy a bunch of bullshit that society wants me to find important. But I digress....I am a cranky, closing in on 50, and have a much different point of view on life than most people. I want to move further away from people and have more land to live more and more self sufficient. Cannabis has turned into one of the few "necessities" (for pain) along with food, shelter, clothing and modest creature comforts.
 
How would someone pay for something that no one owns? Just curious. Who would charge for "air" or "water"? Or course the american government thinks they own water apparently as countless people have been arrested for harvesting rain water. So tough to use things that no one owns as examples of applying 'worth' in my mind.

I prefer legit tangible items that are produced. I find it amazing that people will spend hundreds on phones (and upgrade to the newest one every 6 months) and then bitch about the cost of free range chicken eggs or organic produce. Or hell.....sneakers. Ain't no freaking way I am paying 200 bucks for a pair of sneakers. Work boots....hell yeah! If you are on your feet all day for work, especially those of us that worked long days (all my days were 12-16 hour days occasionally 20+ hours long) and you can't put a price on not being in pain. I won't blink at 200 bucks for comfy boots that will last me a year. I would much rather buy a greenhouse so I can grow more of my own veggies for longer than buy a bunch of bullshit that society wants me to find important. But I digress....I am a cranky, closing in on 50, and have a much different point of view on life than most people. I want to move further away from people and have more land to live more and more self sufficient. Cannabis has turned into one of the few "necessities" (for pain) along with food, shelter, clothing and modest creature comforts.

That is where we are headed.. away from people. As far away from people as we can be without losing telephone/internet, as we possess the coveted grandson and live 1500miles away as it is.

I very much desire a much simpler existence. Less is more. I make my own seeds now so that when I get out of the city I will be my own seed bank. I wish that I had some of these high price genetics to play with, but that is not the hand I was dealt. Instead I was given a desire to grow and forge (with a little help from my friends) ahead.

Who would have known that a couple bags of seedy weed from my buddies trim job last fall would have landed me in this position. I guess some quality Red Point Crosses can really alter one's perspective on things. Lol.

Ramble done, time for :ganjamon:
 
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