Keffka's Recycling, KOS Blue Thai, Herbies Seeds Apple Betty, Runtz Punch

[Thirvnrob]

Okay! Now might be a good time for me to stop lurking. I got through the beginning of your journal and have been anxiously awaiting the seed drop. I've never waded through 11 pages of journal before the seeds were dropped, but I'll be damn if your journal wasn't chock-full of interesting info. A fun , informative read it was!

I've often thought of trying LOS but can never seem to get it in gear. I seem to always have open questions remaining no matter how much reading I do. Well, your first 10 pages voids that excuse. I now feel like I've got the complete picture of, at least, how to get the grow started.

I'm still not sure I'll try it because I'm a senior and I don't like big, heavy pots. I've read many times that LOS needs lots of soil. What is the smallest sized pot I can use for a successful LOS grow?

I hope you don't mind if I hang around to see how this goes. I'm going to skip some pages after the seeds emerge, but until then I'll be hanging on every word.

Oh, and I like to laugh and I got quite a few good ones in while reading some of the banter here! But the biggest laugh I got was from something you wrote that was not intended to be funny (at least I don't think it was).


I would never pose a question to an "officially mixed up" grower. Though I know that's not how you meant it, wording is important!

Looking forward!

@Grand Daddy Black ,having recently taken the plunge into Los, I have a suggestion for you. GET THE PHUK OUTTA HERE NOW & don’t look back!
But seriously, @Keffka & @Gee64 are both tuned into the LOS style of growing. I scour their journals regularly in lurk mode & things are beginning to sink in, albeit slowly- I’m a carpenter for God’s sake, not a Botanist!
Kef & gee understand the plant itself & most importantly, how the plants interact with the soil. If you want to understand LOS principles stick around.

 

[Jon]

I missed chopping time today. I like to get them about 2 hours before lights come on so the trichomes are near their fullest and most numerous. So I have an alarm set for tomorrow and will chop them. That makes today +108.. Lots of trichomes, lots of resin, the majority of hairs are down, the buds look ugly, and wet. Should be a great smoke.

Before lights on the trichomes are more full, okay. But more volume? How does that work? Nice chop! Congratulations!

 

[Keffka]

Before lights on the trichomes are more full, okay. But more volume? How does that work? Nice chop! Congratulations!

Cannabis does most of its translocation, restoration, and recovery during the dark hours. Trichomes degrade in the light. Look closely at your plant in areas that are shaded on your buds. You’ll notice the trichomes that are shaded seem to be more numerous and more resilient than light facing trichomes are. That’s because they’re not being degraded by light exposure. When the lights first come on, the plants always seem much shinier than when lights off is coming.

So if I take all of these together, it tells me that the trichomes will be at their fullest and most numerous just before the lights come on. There’s probably a way to go even further and figure out the specific day they would be best. OR It could all just be anecdotal and psychologically I believe it’s best right before lights on

 

[Azimuth]

@Keffka Somewhere in your travels you mentioned that there are two distinct times when P is taken up. Can you elaborate please?

 

[StoneOtter]

@Grand Daddy Black ,having recently taken the plunge into Los, I have a suggestion for you. GET THE PHUK OUTTA HERE NOW & don’t look back!
But seriously, @Keffka & @Gee64 are both tuned into the LOS style of growing. I scour their journals regularly in lurk mode & things are beginning to sink in, albeit slowly- I’m a carpenter for God’s sake, not a Botanist!
Kef & gee understand the plant itself & most importantly, how the plants interact with the soil. If you want to understand LOS principles stick around.

I'm living proof a person needs to know almost nothing about LOS growing to be successful! True Living Organics (new edition coming in a few weeks) by The Rev has everything for dummies of which I border still! So there's that.

And that’s good night.. chopped her and she was heavier than I expected, we’ll see what she comes out to. I don’t expect much different than the other plants in terms of weight but I do suspect this plants high will be a hitter

She's a beaut!

 

[Keffka]

Just got back from the VA.. Blood pressure was 120/80 doc asked if I stopped smoking cigarettes I said no, just started pushing harder and further on my walks with the dog

I’ll be quitting the cigarettes soon though.. I gave myself until I was 40 to enjoy crap like that but I’m already weary of smoking. I don’t enjoy cigarettes like I used to and I can feel them poisoning me. The only bonus about dope addiction is kicking cigarettes will be a breeze compared to benzos and opiates, at least I wont have to learn how to read a clock again

 

[Keffka]

@Keffka Somewhere in your travels you mentioned that there are two distinct times when P is taken up. Can you elaborate please?

So @Gee64 explains the role of P in nutrient distribution much more eloquently than I, but in essence, it is the plate the plants food comes on. Without it, nutrients aren’t getting carried where they need to be. Hopefully he’ll expand and cover it better when he sees this.

When it comes to the actual accumulation of P for use, cannabis (and likely many other plants) has two major milestones for said accumulation. The first is when the plant enters veg from seedling. This typically occurs around day 21-28 of being above ground. Right before she begins really growing vigorously in veg. This accumulation is lighter since she’s using this one to establish her veg growth and basically test the medium for availability. Many growers have seen this one. The plant comes out of seedling and within two weeks is showing P.

The second, and very important accumulation point occurs right before bloom around day 45-55. A lot of growers miss this one completely by putting their plants into flower before she reaches it. If they miss it she’ll do this while transitioning to flower so you’ll notice P right at the end of stretch. You’ll be playing catch up for all of flower.

A lot of growers (that grow to sexual maturity) will see a P deficiency hit right before they go to flower, that’s the sign you were lacking. There’s almost nothing you can do except play catch up which already puts you behind for the entirety of flower.

@SmokingWings also has covered this in other posts somewhat. If you see a deficiency in flower, you’re already way behind and won’t be able to make up for it. You’ll be able to hold it in place with a lot of effort but you’ll never overcome it because you’ve missed the accumulation points.

 

[Keffka]

So @Gee64 explains the role of P in nutrient distribution much more eloquently than I, but in essence, it is the plate the plants food comes on. Without it, nutrients aren’t getting carried where they need to be. Hopefully he’ll expand and cover it better when he sees this.

When it comes to the actual accumulation of P for use, cannabis (and likely many other plants) has two major milestones for said accumulation. The first is when the plant enters veg from seedling. This typically occurs around day 21-28 of being above ground. Right before she begins really growing vigorously in veg. This accumulation is lighter since she’s using this one to establish her veg growth and basically test the medium for availability. Many growers have seen this one. The plant comes out of seedling and within two weeks is showing P.

The second, and very important accumulation point occurs right before bloom around day 45-55. A lot of growers miss this one completely by putting their plants into flower before she reaches it. If they miss it she’ll do this while transitioning to flower so you’ll notice P right at the end of stretch. You’ll be playing catch up for all of flower.

A lot of growers will see a P deficiency hit right before they go to flower, that’s the sign you were lacking. There’s almost nothing you can do except play catch up which already puts you behind for the entirety of flower.

@SmokingWings also has covered this in other posts somewhat. If you see a deficiency in flower, you’re already way behind and won’t be able to make up for it. You’ll be able to hold it in place with a lot of effort but you’ll never overcome it because you’ve missed the accumulation points.

This is all based off times from seed. For clones you need to know the age of your mother/cutting to be able to accurately hit your accumulation point which isn’t too difficult to do

 

[Keffka]

I'm living proof a person needs to know almost nothing about LOS growing to be successful! True Living Organics (new edition coming in a few weeks) by The Rev has everything for dummies of which I border still! So there's that

This is the guy you want talking to customers. Classic under promise over deliver. We’ve all seen your grows Stone, you don’t get to feign idiocy

She's a beaut!

Thanks! They all definitely were very pretty. I’m excited to get it going again just waiting on the soil to cook

 

[StoneOtter]

This is the guy you want talking to customers. Classic under promise over deliver. We’ve all seen your grows Stone, you don’t get to feign idiocy



Thanks! They all definitely were very pretty. I’m excited to get it going again just waiting on the soil to cook

Hehe, no feign dude. There's something about the way I have to learn that makes me a little different than some. Look at you! You show up and pick up everything! Pass me first month. It's just the way it is. You and Gee have Jon almost over my pay grade already! I'm watching and learning. I pick things up differently. Believe me, soil science is way over my head and that's why I hang with you and others who understand and will share. After I hear things I usually can understand, sometimes it takes a few times.
My point back there was the book and the way it can lead a person to grow pretty well without help actually.

 

[Azimuth]

This is all based off times from seed. For clones you need to know the age of your mother/cutting to be able to accurately hit your accumulation point which isn’t too difficult to do

Well, for mothers well past that 45-55 day period, what does that mean for the clone as it is the same age?

Maybe once the clones gets a well established root system for the first round and then when for the second??

Most of my stuff is clones from clones well on down the line.

 

[Keffka]

@Keffka Somewhere in your travels you mentioned that there are two distinct times when P

Well, for mothers well past that 45-55 day period, what does that mean for the clone as it is the same age?

Maybe once the clones gets a well established root system for the first round and then when for the second??

Most of my stuff is clones from clones well on down the line.

How long do you typically veg your clone(s) before flowering?

How long does rooting take you on average?

Are you utilizing myco?

 

[Azimuth]

How long do you typically veg your clone(s) before flowering?

How long does rooting take you on average?

Are you utilizing myco?

Rooting takes 10-14 days and I usually leave them for another 14 days before selecting the best one or two to pot up. Then they veg about 4 weeks before flipping. I do use myco at pot up.

 

[Keffka]

Rooting takes 10-14 days and I usually leave them for another 14 days before selecting the best one or two to pot up. Then they veg about 4 weeks before flipping. I do use myco at pot up.

Ok. So as long as the mother plant is sexually mature, I would only worry about establishing for one accumulation since her growth has already been decided and you can’t turn back the clock. Even if she wasn’t mature, if she’s past 30-35 days old she’s already pretty settled.

One of the big benefits of cloning, aside from preserving your favorite plant, is the ability to skip a whole lot of the beginning of growing. A whole lot of that beginning is centered around firing up the systems, assigning microbes, observing its environment, and determining its growth for said environment. You can skip all that with a clone because that’s all already wired into its genes.

You’ve seen the convos between @Gee64 and I where we talk about the difference between running clones or seeds in TLO. From seed, I need to use almost triple the strength of everything, whether it’s spikes, layers, or my mix. Even if they were vegged for equivalent time, the clone would still use less than the seed.

I’ll stop myself there otherwise I’ll keep going for 10 paragraphs before I actually answer your question

Currently you’re doing exactly what I would recommend. Dusting myco on your uppot then giving at least two weeks for colonization. Four is better since it gives myco a chance to fully take charge and begin its work freeing up P and other nutrients. I’m gonna ask a few more questions to see if we can’t improve it even more for you.

What are you doing to provide P in your mix? This will be one of your big factors in ensuring you hit that accumulation alongside your myco usage. P takes time to really breakdown as well so this is one of those things that gets better with age.

How are you rooting? Are you using a specific system like an aero cloner? Are you plopping them in cups of water/perlite? Just a description of your process or the name of your system will work.

Edit: Are you experiencing P deficiencies in your clone grows Az, or just looking to improve?

 

[Gee64]

Hey sorry, I was tied up with family all day. The way I see P is that every day you need a little bit more brought to the plant than was brought the day before.

A lot of the P a plant uses isn't for consumption, its part of a loop. It comes into the plant with molecules of food attached to it, circulates thru the plant releasing the food, and gets sent out again via the exudate system to have more food attached, and brought back in.

It's also a nutrient that the plant consumes, and is in every cell as well as being the major player in photosynthesis.

So as the plant grows it needs to both eat more P AND have more P molecules bringing other foods in, and the plant gets bigger every day, requiring even more P in the loop so it can be bigger tomorrow, which would require even more P than today did, which was more than yesterday required.

So it needs to be available all the time, but not too readily available. Myco is the main P collector, as it weathers rock down better than microbes, so if too much P is available, as in synthetic P poured into the soil, the plant has no need for myco, so exudates get dialed back.

Exudates are sugars and sugars are brix, and P is one of the 5 main pieces to high brix, so if you want higher brix then don't pour your P in (unless it's organic like a banana peel tea).

Ideally it should all be in your soil already, with a bit more in your top dressings, such as high P bat guano, to maintain it, but P doesn't move much in soil, so if you topdress too much you will just be wasting it as it will predominantly sit where you placed it.

Now mulch makes sense as it darkens the surface so roots move in, as well as myco, and it can be used.

It's electrically sticky like most things, so even watering doesn't move raw P around much, it needs biology to assimilate it.

It's the dump truck of the food network, endlessly going round and round, plant to soil to plant, and the plant is the road it drives on. Every day both the road and the plant's appetite gets a bit bigger, so the plant eats more and photosynthesizes more, so it requires more P than yesterday did for both consumption and photosynthesis, and tomorrow will require more than today.

Myco knows how to manage dump trucks very well, so the best way is to put it in the soil in the beginning, and let myco manage it.

The reason no one talks much about P in organics, and rarely sees a P deficiency, is because most soils already contain micro rocks that are high in P content and then a small bit more is added at mixing in forms such as soft rock phosphate. That will get you through.

If you do see a P deficiency, chances are it's a myco issue or lockout, not an actual deficiency in soil P.

 

[Keffka]

Hey sorry, I was tied up with family all day. The way I see P is that every day you need a little bit more brought to the plant than was brought the day before.

A lot of the P a plant uses isn't for consumption, its part of a loop. It comes into the plant with molecules of food attached to it, circulates thru the plant releasing the food, and gets sent out again via the exudate system to have more food attached, and brought back in.

It's also a nutrient that the plant consumes, and is in every cell as well as being the major player in photosynthesis.

So as the plant grows it needs to both eat more P AND have more P molecules bringing other foods in, and the plant gets bigger every day, requiring even more P in the loop so it can be bigger tomorrow, which would require even more P than today did, which was more than yesterday required.

So it needs to be available all the time, but not too readily available. Myco is the main P collector, as it weathers rock down better than microbes, so if too much P is available, as in synthetic P poured into the soil, the plant has no need for myco, so exudates get dialed back.

Exudates are sugars and sugars are brix, and P is one of the 5 main pieces to high brix, so if you want higher brix then don't pour your P in (unless it's organic like a banana peel tea).

Ideally it should all be in your soil already, with a bit more in your top dressings, such as high P bat guano, to maintain it, but P doesn't move much in soil, so if you topdress too much you will just be wasting it as it will predominantly sit where you placed it.

Now mulch makes sense as it darkens the surface so roots move in, as well as myco, and it can be used.

It's electrically sticky like most things, so even watering doesn't move raw P around much, it needs biology to assimilate it.

It's the dump truck of the food network, endlessly going round and round, plant to soil to plant, and the plant is the road it drives on. Every day both the road and the plant's appetite gets a bit bigger, so the plant eats more and photosynthesizes more, so it requires more P than yesterday did for both consumption and photosynthesis, and tomorrow will require more than today.

Myco knows how to manage dump trucks very well, so the best way is to put it in the soil in the beginning, and let myco manage it.

The reason no one talks much about P in organics, and rarely sees a P deficiency, is because most soils already contain micro rocks that are high in P content and then a small bit more is added at mixing in forms such as soft rock phosphate. That will get you through.

If you do see a P deficiency, chances are it's a myco issue or lockout, not an actual deficiency in soil P.

You’re good, you get to it eventually if not right away. I was more concerned that you didn’t answer because I know this is a large part of your life here (Hello Mr Kettle my name is Mr Pot)

So, basically a perfect description of what P does and why myco is so important in this process.

Myco automates the accumulation process. So if you’re an organic grower this is incredibly easy to accomplish. Have a healthy soil with healthy myco and it just happens. When the plant first makes its myco connection it basically gives the myco a list of things it needs and P is the backbone of making that list happen. That’s your first accumulation point. At this point P becomes something that is used at graduating levels. Right before flower occurs it steps this up by multiple levels in preparation for bloom as the plants requests for multiple nutrients escalate. Second accumulation point.

If you have myco this is again already handled. Myco has been busy mining away at the little P rocks in your medium preparing for this. This is why growing with myco removes most of the need for using P in top dressings or those crazy liquids with insane numbers in double digits. It’s unnecessary because myco can get at P like none other.

It’s also why you see so many bloom nutrients. If you don’t have myco you don’t have access to the levels of P your plant wants. Period.

 

[Azimuth]

Good thoughts all, @Keffka .

What are you doing to provide P in your mix? This will be one of your big factors in ensuring you hit that accumulation alongside your myco usage. P takes time to really breakdown as well so this is one of those things that gets better with age.

Ah, well, welcome to my world. My grow is off the beaten path. Way off. Bushwacking it, if you will.

I've been on a journey to produce my own grow from start to finish with just stuff I can produce myself, and mostly from my backyard. Everything from my soil mix to amendments to plant food. Much of my journey is documented in my 'Alchemy' thread where I explore both KNF (Korean Natural Farming) and Jadam.

As I've researched more and had more rounds I'm getting closer to realizing my goal, and think I'm pretty close to it at this point.

In prior rounds I was depending on my Jadam extracts, mostly my Fruit & Flower ones, to provide both P and K after the flip to flower, but starting mid last year I started adding those inputs to my worm bin and those early adds are finally now in the castings I'm harvesting.

I use a modified 'Coots Mix' where 1/3 of the base is organics and the castings are 1/4 of that third so I'm expecting that I'll be getting more of a steady availability of P along with everything else from the jump. Up until now comfrey, which is high in NPK but low in just about everything else, has been a major input into the process, added to my worm bin, compost pile, as a weekly top dressing (along with stinging nettle which is low in P and K but high in most everything else), as well as a major input in my fertigation input for my SIPs as a Jadam extract.

I've really only just begun focusing on this element which drove my original question to you and plan a material increase in my backyard flower production to increase the quantity supplied to my worms as well as my compost pile so it should prove to be available in the mix for the myco to farm on request.

How are you rooting? Are you using a specific system like an aero cloner? Are you plopping them in cups of water/perlite? Just a description of your process or the name of your system will work.

Rooting cuts had been a major challenge to me for years until I settled on my new approach linked in my sig. Basically I put several cuts in a single Solo cup of either perlite or coarse sand and mist them a couple of times a day until they root, then back off to once a day until I uppot.

They get nothing but misted tap water until I pot the winner(s).

Edit: Are you experiencing P deficiencies in your clone grows Az, or just looking to improve?

I don't generally get P deficiencies with my mix. If anything I get more K issues but not much of that either really with my Jadam extracts.

Recently I've made changes to both my mix and the frequency of adding the Jadam stuff and have gotten the best looking plants so far. Much better looking color and leaves twice as big as I normally get which is why I think I'm pretty close to realizing my goal.

But that lasts only to about 2-3 weeks after flip when I start getting deficiency issues. This current round it's a yellowing of the lower, understudy leaves which looks like N, and I suppose technically that's what it is, but I don't think the cause is an actual N deficit but really more of a Ca one.

After listening to @Gee64 drone on and on and on () about calcium and the work it does to fluff the soil (among other things) I've been comparing my base mix with the Coots and TLO mixes and see that I am woefully deficient in that element and so I'll be modifying my mix accordingly.

So, to answer your question directly, no major issues but looking to tweak what is becoming a pretty solid setup, and driven mostly from my backyard.

 

[Keffka]

Good thoughts all, @Keffka .


Ah, well, welcome to my world. My grow is off the beaten path. Way off. Bushwacking it, if you will.

I've been on a journey to produce my own grow from start to finish with just stuff I can produce myself, and mostly from my yard. Everything from my soil mix to amendments to plant food. Much of my journey is documented in my 'Alchemy' thread where I explore both KNF (Korean Natural Farming) and Jadam.

As I've researched more and had more rounds I'm getting closer to realizing my goal, and think I'm pretty close to it at this point.

In prior rounds I was depending on my Jadam extracts, mostly my Fruit & Flower ones, to provide both P and K after the flip to flower, but starting mid last year I started adding those inputs to my worm bin and those early adds are finally now in the castings I'm harvesting.

I use a modified 'Coots Mix' where 1/3 of the base is organics and the castings are 1/4 of that third so I'm expecting that I'll be getting more of a steady availability of P along with everything else from the jump. Up until now comfrey, which is high in NPK but low in just about everything else, has been a major input into the process, added to my worm bin, compost pile, as a weekly top dressing (along with stinging nettle which is low in P and K but high in most everything else), as well as a major input in my fertigation input for my SIPs as a Jadam extract.

I've really only just begun focusing on this element which drove my original question to you and plan a material increase in my backyard flower production to increase the quantity supplied to my worms as well as my compost pile so it should prove available in the mix for the myco to farm on request.


Rooting cuts had been a major challenge to me for years until I settled on my new approach linked in my sig. Basically I put several cuts in a single Solo cup of either perlite or coarse sand and mist them a couple of times a day until they root, then back off to once a day until I uppot.

They get nothing but misted tap water until I pot the winner(s).


I don't generally get P deficiencies with my mix. If anything I get more K issues but not much of that either really with my Jadam extracts.

Recently I've made changes to both my mix and the frequency of adding the Jadam stuff and have gotten the best looking plants so far. Much better looking color and leaves twice as big as I normally get which is why I think I'm pretty close to realizing my goal.

But that lasts only to about 2-3 weeks after flip when I start getting deficiency issues. This current round it's a yellowing of the lower, understudy leaves which looks like N, and I suppose technically that's what it is, but I don't think the cause is an actual N deficit but really more of a Ca one.

After listening to @Gee64 drone on and on and on () about calcium and the work it does to fluff the soil (among other things) I've been comparing my base mix with the Coots and TLO mixes and see that I am woefully deficient in that element and so I'll be modifying my mix accordingly.

So, to answer your question directly, no major issues but looking to tweak what is becoming a pretty solid setup, and driven mostly from my backyard.

That’s right, I remember the backyard closed system.

One thing I would experiment with is introducing myco while still in the solo cup. Once they’ve rooted and you’re giving them that time to pick your plant, maybe attempt a water soluble myco in whatever you’re watering/misting with. Or you could try mixing myco with the perlite so when roots emerge they find contact with it.

You may be able to get a jumpstart on your myco with that. At a minimum spores may attach to your roots and be well positioned for the transplant to soil. One of the things that helps the plant send its signal to the myco is a lack of available nutrients. In straight perlite this may help since there are no nutrients available. Its worth at least trying out a bit.

As far as P itself, there’s a high probability your soil already has all it needs. Like @Gee64 said, Most soils have all they need. The problem is how tightly bound P becomes and how quickly it happens. In my mind I view it like a MRI. The magnets in the MRI are so ludicrously powerful it can lift grown men off their feet and fly them through the air. That’s P but in the soil. Almost to the second available P is added to the soil it becomes locked up. That’s why farmers use 10x the amount of P the plant needs just to get it to take up the little bit it does need.

Myco and myco alone has the tools to dissolve these bonds and if you don’t have myco then you’re stuck like the farmer, providing that P.

For you, myco is your absolute best friend. If you’re trying to maintain a closed system and get the very most out of your soils, you want myco just as much as water. Myco will get every bit of nutrition out the soil the plant needs, while also helping to restore and balance the soil. It is your right hand man.

 

[Azimuth]

One thing I would experiment with is introducing myco while still in the solo cup. Once they’ve rooted and you’re giving them that time to pick your plant, maybe attempt a water soluble myco in whatever you’re watering/misting with. Or you could try mixing myco with the perlite so when roots emerge they find contact with it.

The best one or two get the myco when I pot them up after they root, usually in either a 9oz or 1L SIP, so they get it from the beginning.

As far as P itself, there’s a high probability your soil already has all it needs. Like @Gee64 said, Most soils have all they need. The problem is how tightly bound P becomes and how quickly it happens.

Ok, perfect. I've not had much of a P issue so I guess my mix must be good enough in that dept.

 

[Keffka]

The best one or two get the myco when I pot them up after they root, usually in either a 9oz or 1L SIP, so they get it from the beginning.

Right, and I’m saying, try it in the cup during that two week period where they’ve rooted but you’re deciding which is best. That way the moment it hits the soil it’s already established and moving, instead of waiting for it to establish after transplant. Does that make sense or am I doing that thing where I’m being confusing ?

Ok, perfect. I've not had much of a P issue so I guess my mix must be good enough in that dept.

I would just keep an eye out. In a closed system, eventually the P will run out. You’ll want to refresh/amend the soil before that happens. It will likely take a while to happen but the supplies aren’t infinite