Awesome pics of some beautiful girls 
InTheShed Grows Inside & Out: Jump In Any Time
smokesbetter
Well-Known Member
Nice Pic of the plants looking GOOD !
I am! Great shot, Shed- those girls are looking good!
Must be quite a trick getting them through that shed door a couple times a day!
especially on watering day...
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- #26,745
Thanks WH! My backyard is starting to smell really nice.
Thank you sb! This is about the time something goes wrong like bugs or PM, so I'm nervous but hopeful?
LOL thanks BigD! Let's see if he is...
Aww, glad you approve Carcass! It's only an imitation...can't match the original.
And it's so much easier with 7 gallons instead of 10s. I usually water in the morning, and by the time I put them in the shed at night they're light enough to handle without a problem. And they get watered every other day now!
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- #26,747
No pics, all thoughts...most of it pretty deep in the weeds. But if you use ProMix or another peat-based substrate, it's worth reading. I also want to tag in @MrSauga, @farside05, and @FelipeBlu to make sure they stop by.
Many of you know
My tale of woe
That begins to show
When the leaves yel-low.
Okay, enough of that. I want to talk about the issue I have of the rising pH of my ProMix HP that seems to affect my grows as I get into flower. My switch from Dr Earth soil to ProMix happened about the same time I went from FF trio to MC (early in 2018). And looking back on it this is where I probably began having a pH that was out of range by the end of flower. No matter what I did I would be losing lower leaves and seeing deficiencies I shouldn't have been having.
Some of that might be related to some of the odd ratios that MC v2 used (high Ca and K), but I have to think that the pH of the ProMix played a role as well. I didn't start checking substrate pH until later on in my growing.
[I hope you've read the first post in my thread about not having to pH our nutrient solutions in a buffered medium because I don't want to re-cover that ground here. If you haven't read it and you're interested, just read the opening post here. We'll wait for you...]
So what is it about MC that doesn't seem to play well with ProMix, as I am not the only one to have had this issue. I've helped out other growers here correct their pH after a slurry test would show it was too high. So I decided to have a conversation about it with my contact at Premier Tech Horticulture, the manufacturer or ProMix.
I asked him why the pH of my medium seems to move out of range so quickly, where people using MC in soil don't seem to have that problem. This was his reply:
[Note: when he says "growing media" he's referring to peat-based like ProMix. Also, edited for clarity.]
"For...soil, the buffer and CEC is much greater than formulated growing media, therefore swings in pH and nutrition are less. Since...soil is highly buffered (depending on its source), it is also more resistance to change. That said, growing media allows growers to manipulate nutrition and pH for plants needs much easier. Managing the fertilizer with the alkalinity of your water is the key to achieving the ideal pH."
This means that soil is less sensitive to both the nitrogen source in the fertilizer (nitrate or ammoniacal), as well as the alkaline content of the water used. But the advantage to "growing media" is that it "allows growers to manipulate nutrition and pH for plants needs much easier." It will respond more quickly to changes you make in response to the plant's needs.
And his recommendation was to use two different types of nutrients in a rotation: two waterings with one higher in ammoniacal nitrogen (like the GrowMore Orchid stuff I use to bring down pH when it gets too high), followed by one watering with a fertilizer high in nitrate nitrogen, like MC. And to continue to monitor slurry pH to make sure it's staying in the correct range (5.5-6.2). He didn't think there was a single blend of the two N types that would work at all strengths.
Now, why would this affect me more than a lot of other growers using MC and "growing media"? Because, as farside mentioned, he and many tent growers are usually harvested by the time the plants are 120 days above ground. In that amount of time (with transplants into new media), the pH hasn't risen far enough to really matter to the plant's health. But mine are just starting flower about then, which is when I start to see the problems crop up.
So...move to a quality soil (like FFHF or Miracle Gro Natures Care Organic Potting Mix) and stick with MC, or move to the alternating system he recommended with ProMix? Farside is thinking that there might be a way to find a blend using MC and ammonium sulfate to keep the pH in check through flower. That blend will allow me to use the ammonium sulfate to add ammoniacal nitrogen (and a sulfur boost like Terpinator without the potassium) to keep the pH in check.
I am going to give that a test with the Jack Herer (now 69 days above soil), so that information will be part of those updates.
If you made it all the way down here,
for reading this!
Many of you know
My tale of woe
That begins to show
When the leaves yel-low.
Okay, enough of that. I want to talk about the issue I have of the rising pH of my ProMix HP that seems to affect my grows as I get into flower. My switch from Dr Earth soil to ProMix happened about the same time I went from FF trio to MC (early in 2018). And looking back on it this is where I probably began having a pH that was out of range by the end of flower. No matter what I did I would be losing lower leaves and seeing deficiencies I shouldn't have been having.
Some of that might be related to some of the odd ratios that MC v2 used (high Ca and K), but I have to think that the pH of the ProMix played a role as well. I didn't start checking substrate pH until later on in my growing.
[I hope you've read the first post in my thread about not having to pH our nutrient solutions in a buffered medium because I don't want to re-cover that ground here. If you haven't read it and you're interested, just read the opening post here. We'll wait for you...]
So what is it about MC that doesn't seem to play well with ProMix, as I am not the only one to have had this issue. I've helped out other growers here correct their pH after a slurry test would show it was too high. So I decided to have a conversation about it with my contact at Premier Tech Horticulture, the manufacturer or ProMix.
I asked him why the pH of my medium seems to move out of range so quickly, where people using MC in soil don't seem to have that problem. This was his reply:
[Note: when he says "growing media" he's referring to peat-based like ProMix. Also, edited for clarity.]
"For...soil, the buffer and CEC is much greater than formulated growing media, therefore swings in pH and nutrition are less. Since...soil is highly buffered (depending on its source), it is also more resistance to change. That said, growing media allows growers to manipulate nutrition and pH for plants needs much easier. Managing the fertilizer with the alkalinity of your water is the key to achieving the ideal pH."
This means that soil is less sensitive to both the nitrogen source in the fertilizer (nitrate or ammoniacal), as well as the alkaline content of the water used. But the advantage to "growing media" is that it "allows growers to manipulate nutrition and pH for plants needs much easier." It will respond more quickly to changes you make in response to the plant's needs.
And his recommendation was to use two different types of nutrients in a rotation: two waterings with one higher in ammoniacal nitrogen (like the GrowMore Orchid stuff I use to bring down pH when it gets too high), followed by one watering with a fertilizer high in nitrate nitrogen, like MC. And to continue to monitor slurry pH to make sure it's staying in the correct range (5.5-6.2). He didn't think there was a single blend of the two N types that would work at all strengths.
Now, why would this affect me more than a lot of other growers using MC and "growing media"? Because, as farside mentioned, he and many tent growers are usually harvested by the time the plants are 120 days above ground. In that amount of time (with transplants into new media), the pH hasn't risen far enough to really matter to the plant's health. But mine are just starting flower about then, which is when I start to see the problems crop up.
So...move to a quality soil (like FFHF or Miracle Gro Natures Care Organic Potting Mix) and stick with MC, or move to the alternating system he recommended with ProMix? Farside is thinking that there might be a way to find a blend using MC and ammonium sulfate to keep the pH in check through flower. That blend will allow me to use the ammonium sulfate to add ammoniacal nitrogen (and a sulfur boost like Terpinator without the potassium) to keep the pH in check.
I am going to give that a test with the Jack Herer (now 69 days above soil), so that information will be part of those updates.
If you made it all the way down here,
for reading this!
I don't suppose you could just mix a little orchid food in with your mc during flower?
A 4:1 ratio maybe?
A 4:1 ratio maybe?
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- #26,749
Thanks! It's a good thought Carcass, but it leads to two problems: since it contains no Ca, Mg, or sulfur at all it means I would need to get that from somewhere else. And trying to add enough to bump up the ammoniacal N would push the overall N and K numbers way too high when combined with the MC.
This is another one of those times I find Hydrobuddy really helpful!
Yeah, I kinda figured that'd be way too easy...
The alternating nutes method sounds like it should work, but isn't that much N bad (or at least not needed) in flower- I mean, I understand that it'll adjust the pH, but won't it also do what high N usually does? (N tox, dark green leaves, accelerated leaf growth, burnt leaves, weak stems, etc.)
The alternating nutes method sounds like it should work, but isn't that much N bad (or at least not needed) in flower- I mean, I understand that it'll adjust the pH, but won't it also do what high N usually does? (N tox, dark green leaves, accelerated leaf growth, burnt leaves, weak stems, etc.)
I know you are trying to use up the Mega Crop and the money you invested in it, but here is my current thinking...
Referring to Dr Argo...
..."The nitrogen content of selected commercially-available granular and liquid water-soluble fertilizers. The alkalinity concentration
that provides a stable substrate pH should be viewed as an approximate guideline only. Use these values as a starting point. Any
changes to the fertilizer program should be based on the actual measured pH of the crop."
He suggests a ratio of 25% Ammonical to total N to maintain a stable pH when using 75-150ppm Alkalinity water. (I know we've been over this in other threads but I post it here for those that haven't read them). My water supply is similar to yours, but I grow for shorter times, as you mentioned.
Back to my thoughts ..
I'm considering using Masterblend's Tomato Fertilizer (4-18-38) as a base. It has most of the micros but very little N. This allows one to blend in the N using different sources like Ammonium Sulfate and Calcium Nitrate to achieve whatever ratios one desires, to counteract the alkalinity of their water. It's not an expensive proposition. I can get a 4lb bag of Ammonium Sulfate for $8, and a 4lb bag of Calcium Nitrate for the same price, both at the local hardware store. $25 for a 5lb bag of the Masterblend through Amazon. If needed, Epsom Salts is cheap and local, although the wife always has plenty around the house for the bath tub. That's a hell of a lot of fertilizer for less than $50! I'd want to make concentrated liquids of each for easier dosing rather than measuring minute amounts of powder. That's my next logical step (doing that math) before making the leap. Seems like every grow anymore I'm changing nutes. Luckily I've gotten a good handle on plant requirements and can make the switch relatively seemless.
Referring to Dr Argo...
..."The nitrogen content of selected commercially-available granular and liquid water-soluble fertilizers. The alkalinity concentration
that provides a stable substrate pH should be viewed as an approximate guideline only. Use these values as a starting point. Any
changes to the fertilizer program should be based on the actual measured pH of the crop."
He suggests a ratio of 25% Ammonical to total N to maintain a stable pH when using 75-150ppm Alkalinity water. (I know we've been over this in other threads but I post it here for those that haven't read them). My water supply is similar to yours, but I grow for shorter times, as you mentioned.
Back to my thoughts ..
I'm considering using Masterblend's Tomato Fertilizer (4-18-38) as a base. It has most of the micros but very little N. This allows one to blend in the N using different sources like Ammonium Sulfate and Calcium Nitrate to achieve whatever ratios one desires, to counteract the alkalinity of their water. It's not an expensive proposition. I can get a 4lb bag of Ammonium Sulfate for $8, and a 4lb bag of Calcium Nitrate for the same price, both at the local hardware store. $25 for a 5lb bag of the Masterblend through Amazon. If needed, Epsom Salts is cheap and local, although the wife always has plenty around the house for the bath tub. That's a hell of a lot of fertilizer for less than $50! I'd want to make concentrated liquids of each for easier dosing rather than measuring minute amounts of powder. That's my next logical step (doing that math) before making the leap. Seems like every grow anymore I'm changing nutes. Luckily I've gotten a good handle on plant requirements and can make the switch relatively seemless.
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- #26,752
Plants need nitrogen all the way through flower, almost as much nitrogen as potassium, and very little phosphorus all the way through. And I make sure I'm not overfeeding them with N because I'm sticking to specific ppm numbers, just like folks bumping MC do according to their feed charts. My late flower mix maxes out at around 160ppm of nitrogen, which would be 6.3g/gallon of MC, but I'm nowhere near what that amount of MC would be for potassium at 210ppm or calcium at 133ppm because MC is not my only nutrient source.
I've posted these before, but this is a pdf with plant analysis charts and graphs (with full detailed lab analysis) done on the macro and micronutrients found in three different strains of cannabis plant during veg and flower.
The varieties and analysis are from 2003, but I don't think we have modified the plant in the last 17 years to the extent that the nutrient results would vary that greatly today. Here are screenshots of the first three graphs:
Two out of three of them used more nitrogen in flower than in veg!
An all to common misconception. The need for N does not decrease in flower. In some cases it actually increases.
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- #26,754
If I didn't have over $50 of MC v2 left I would be looking at all sorts of different ways to get where I'm trying to go.
I like your thinking, and my big mistake was committing to over $70 of MC in one go. If some cheap ammonium sulfate can make it work then that seems like a good use of sunk costs!
Posted the charts from your thread above. ↑
Thanks guys for the very thorough explanation- I'll look at N a little differently from here on in...
You're still sitting on that much MC after all this time? Ammonium Sulfate does seem like the easiest solution in that case. I've never made that big of a commitment because I still like playing with nutes too much. Things I have on hand or gave away...Dyna Gro Foliage Pro (use on outdoor plants like my mint plant), Mega Crop (gave to a friend that I gave 3 plants to), Orchidgain (in a drawer), Jack's 15-5-20 (drawer), 2 Remo Nutes Supercharged Kits (gave away unopened), 2 vats of Terpinator (gave to the same person that I gave the Remo to), Greencare MSU fertilizer (currently in use), Greenway Biotech Cal-Mag (unused, not needed, in drawer), AgSil 16H aka Faux-Tekt ® (in use). That doesn't count the Dyna Gro Bloom, Dyna-Gro Mag Pro, Kelp Extract, or several Botanicare samples that all saw the bottom of a trash can when I was cleaning house. When I put it all down in words...I have a problem. Hello, my name is Farside and I'm a Nute-A-Holic.
If any of my neighbors are selling their property, please consider moving. Wontcha be my neighbor
I jest, but that is kind of you to hook/help them like that.
One day I just hope to have a big enough operation where I can go to a Greencare or Masterblend type company and have them blend up a fertilizer that is exactly what I want for my given growing conditions. Yeah I could probably do it on a small scale with individual salts, but I'm talking dreams of buying pallets worth and a couple acres under glass. I grew up in a greenhouse, just growing different kinds of plants. To think of all that space filled with fine cannabis... For now I'm stuck with these two tiny ass tents. Sadness.
I've tried to pay it forward by donating nutes, plants, old lights, etc. I've given away bud and edibles to those with medical needs and no means otherwise, and continue to do so. I've made a little $ along the way too
I edited my original post- as afterwards I felt it might be misunderstood. I've learnt quite a bit just from the conversations you and Shed (among others) on the nutrients. I'm sorry to have sidelined that conversation.
How's the winters for greenhouse growing?
You've paid it forward in knowledge on here, I have no doubts on how you've helped those around you. I didn't mean to take away from that.I've tried to pay it forward by donating nutes, plants, old lights, etc. I've given away bud and edibles to those with medical needs and no means otherwise, and continue to do so. I've made a little $ along the way too
I don't pretend to understand everything (yet), but I do recognize the value of the knowledge that is on here.
And hey...a person's gotta eat
I got your original intent before you even added the edit.
Before I moved I was in NW Ohio, that's where the family greenhouse was. Surprisingly, many of the large greenhouses in the country are located there, which makes no sense. Near Lake Erie is like the Seattle of the Midwest, grey skies most days only shittier, colder winters. With cold winters comes huge heat bills in a greenhouse. $3,000 a month for heat was common (1980 dollars). The real big operations were $15,000. Roughly $1,000 a month for every acre you had under glass. At one point, my dad's two uncles owned most of the large greenhouses from Cleveland to Toledo. They were the ones that bankrolled my grandfather which allowed him to buy our greenhouse. One of the two uncles was embezzling money from their company and it forced a bankruptcy situation. Most of the land they were on has since been developed and turned into housing, but the company that bought up their greenhouses is still around and has a giant operation. They supply all the big box stores for about 8 states. Every once in a while I look on Google Maps to see the state of our old business. It's been vacant for a number of years. There's maybe 20% of the greenhouses still standing, the rest have collapsed due to lack of maintenance.