InTheShed Grows Inside & Out: Jump In Any Time

tomato/tomatoe...doesn't really matter how Ya' get Yer' grow on, as long as the end result pleases the grower...personally I prefer organic, because it just fits for me...no math or switching nutes, in search of a holy grail formula...just my thoughts at the moment...cheerz... ...h00k......
Some folks have the time and interest in perfecting their soils over the course of a number of grows, other folks do the same with nutes! It's hard to find an LOS grower who isn't modifying the amendments with each grow until they find what works, or changing the makeup of the top-dressing or teas. Either way it's a search for a holy grail formula.
That info agrees with the way I always think of the difference.
The plant roots excrete sugars that provide microbes with the energy needed to break down the minerals. Then the microbes dissolve the minerals, and the plant absorbs the microbes.
But the sugars from the roots vary throughout the day, sometimes in a matter of minutes.
So in an organic delivery system, the plant dynamically controls the source of minerals by feeding different classes of microbes.
In a chemical system, the plants get what we decide they need, and just once a day, all day, maybe.
I prefer the constantly adjusting system to the rigid defined one.
I've seen stellar results either way, though.
Thanks Graytail, stellar results are what matters! The even uptake of nutrients is one of the things I mentioned as an advantage of an organic grow.

Just to be clear, according to Rutgers, the plant absorbs the ions from the microbes and spits them back out to repeat the cycle, rather than absorbing the microbes themselves.
 
If you are wanting to combine existing nutrient products and see their resulting ppm/elemental breakdown, you can use the Elemental Calculator tab of MY SPREADSHEETS. Quite a bit easier to use than Hydrobuddy. You may need to download a copy of it locally before you can make edits. If you don't have Excel it should also open in Google Sheets which is freeware.


looks like i'm gonna have to climb around that chart and see if i can figure a few things out.
 
In a chemical system, the plants get what we decide they need, and just once a day, all day, at best.

The plant is still going to choose what it wants to eat from the buffet supplied in the nutrient solution. If too much of a particular element is supplied, it's going to build up in the growing medium. Not enough and you get a deficiency. Not really any different in an organic system. Build a soil that has too much N, aka too hot, and you can burn a plant. Not enough and you get a deficiency. We're all just searching for a good balance, be it bottle or building a soil.
 
Greetings of a Sunday all! I wanted to get back to the conversation we were having on organic vs. synthetic nutrients, and ions vs. ions.

Last week, @The Celt posted a response to my "ions are ions" link (and nicely did not generate a debate on which type of growing is better!). He did post a link to newer research than my article from 20 years ago. And Celt's link was an academic research paper that was pretty much beyond my understanding.

Still, I was trying to get my head around this weird coincidence in the different ways plants uptake nutes that allow us to feed them in an entirely different way from their evolutionary development, so I went back to try to read through that article. The first time I was overwhelmed while scrolling through it, and this time I thought I would start with the abstract:

"In this paper, we describe a mechanism for the transfer of nutrients from symbiotic microbes (bacteria and fungi) to host plant roots that we term the ‘rhizophagy cycle.’ In the rhizophagy cycle, microbes alternate between a root intracellular endophytic phase and a free-living soil phase. Microbes acquire soil nutrients in the free-living soil phase; nutrients are extracted through exposure to host-produced reactive oxygen in the intracellular endophytic phase. We conducted experiments on several seed-vectored microbes in several host species. We found that initially the symbiotic microbes grow on the rhizoplane in the exudate zone adjacent the root meristem. Microbes enter root tip meristem cells—locating within the periplasmic spaces between cell wall and plasma membrane. In the periplasmic spaces of root cells, microbes convert to wall-less protoplast forms. As root cells mature, microbes continue to be subjected to reactive oxygen (superoxide) produced by NADPH oxidases (NOX) on the root cell plasma membranes. Reactive oxygen degrades some of the intracellular microbes, also likely inducing electrolyte leakage from microbes—effectively extracting nutrients from microbes. Surviving bacteria in root epidermal cells trigger root hair elongation and as hairs elongate bacteria exit at the hair tips, reforming cell walls and cell shapes as microbes emerge into the rhizosphere where they may obtain additional nutrients. Precisely what nutrients are transferred through rhizophagy or how important this process is for nutrient acquisition is still unknown."

To me, that says that microbes absorb the nutrients in the soil. Those nutrients are released to the roots in response to specific chemical interactions that make the microbe's cell wall break down, allowing the roots to extract those nutrients. The microbe is then released back into the free-living soil and they obtain additional nutrients, beginning the cycle again. It also ends with: "Precisely what nutrients are transferred through rhizophagy or how important this process is for nutrient acquisition is still unknown."

When I went searching for more information, I found a number of articles from respected universities that basically say "an ion is an ion."

[Note: Bold mine in all quotes below.]

This one from Michigan State University (from the same year as Celt's article) states:
"The fundamental process of nutrient absorption by plants is well established. Irrespective of whether nutrients originate from organic or inorganic sources, plants are only capable of absorbing nutrients in certain forms. For example, nitrogen is only absorbed as nitrate (NO3-) ions or ammonium (NH4+) ions and potassium only as K+ ions. Thus, plants do not differentiate between nutrients derived from organic and inorganic fertilizer sources."

And here is a Science Daily summary of the Rutgers University article Celt posted. It boils it down into five paragraphs, including this summary:
"The rhizophagy cycle works like this: Plants cultivate -- essentially farm -- microbes around root tips by secreting sugars, proteins and vitamins, according to White. The microbes grow and then enter root cells at the tips, where cells are dividing and lack hardened walls. The microbes lose their cell walls, become trapped in plant cells, and are hit with reactive oxygen (superoxide). The reactive oxygen breaks down some of the microbe cells, effectively extracting nutrients from them. Surviving microbes spur the formation of root hairs on roots. The microbes leave the hairs at the growing hair tip, where the hair cell wall is soft, and microbes reform their cell walls as they reenter soil. The microbes acquire nutrients in the soil and the process is repeated over and over, according to White, who has been studying the sustainable cycle for seven years."

What the Rutgers' research seems to have discovered is not that plants don't absorb ions in organic grows, but the method by which they absorb them.

So after further reading, I'm going back to my original statement that plants cannot differentiate the source of the nutrient ion. Ions are involved whether the plant gets its nutrition from the microbes or directly from the soil.

I am not saying that there aren't other benefits to an organic grow as I have mentioned, but it still looks like an ion is an ion. :)

Thanks to Celt for spurring me on to do further reading on this. Everything I take the time to understand makes me that much smarter!

I hope everyone's weekend was warm and sunny. :cool:
Based on my edumacation, everybody sounds correct! :laughtwo:
 
Monday update...with plants!

I thinned the Candidas this morning as they were thirsty every other day, and I need to keep the two in plastic small because they need to fit in the isolation box when it's breeding time. And the mother was getting a bit out of control as well.

Here is the before/after pic:

And it was seed day when the mail arrived this morning! In addition to the seeds sent by @Weed Seeds Express to replace the ones damaged in shipping ( :thanks: ), I also received my MOTY prize from @CannaPot:

11 Granola Funk (GSC Forum x Wookie 15) from Bodhi Seeds and 2 bonus Grape Ape fems! Thanks for the sponsorship Cannapot. :ciao:

That's the plant news this morning. I'll get some pics of the Spring grow tomorrow as they are really starting to come into their own. And by Friday we might be able to have our preliminary round of Guess the Sex!

In other news, my wife and I have our vaccine appointments on Friday morning. :yahoo: We're not sure which shot they're giving yet, so it's either one-and-done or one-and-come-back-in-a-few-weeks! The instructions say it could be any of the three available.

Either way I'm in the queue! I'm looking forward to going back to wearing only one mask when I'm all shotted up. Simple pleasures. :)
 
Monday update...with plants!

I thinned the Candidas this morning as they were thirsty every other day, and I need to keep the two in plastic small because they need to fit in the isolation box when it's breeding time. And the mother was getting a bit out of control as well.

Here is the before/after pic:

And it was seed day when the mail arrived this morning! In addition to the seeds sent by @Weed Seeds Express to replace the ones damaged in shipping ( :thanks: ), I also received my MOTY prize from @CannaPot:

11 Granola Funk (GSC Forum x Wookie 15) from Bodhi Seeds and 2 bonus Grape Ape fems! Thanks for the sponsorship Cannapot. :ciao:

That's the plant news this morning. I'll get some pics of the Spring grow tomorrow as they are really starting to come into their own. And by Friday we might be able to have our preliminary round of Guess the Sex!

In other news, my wife and I have our vaccine appointments on Friday morning. :yahoo: We're not sure which shot they're giving yet, so it's either one-and-done or one-and-come-back-in-a-few-weeks! The instructions say it could be any of the three available.

Either way I'm in the queue! I'm looking forward to going back to wearing only one mask when I'm all shotted up. Simple pleasures. :)
Friday Yay! 7 more days for me/us and I'm fully charged and ready to go with only one mask too brother! Edit: Sweet seeds from cannapot!
 
Seems fair!

Counting those days for sure Otter! I'm looking forward to getting to that point. :slide:
I may have mentioned it somewhere else but again, it made a difference knowing if I don't get too stupid, things are going to be fine in this direction! WAY! Start scheduling the get togethers! That's right! Do it!
 
It's a bit early for me, but you go for it! I'll be happy when I don't feel weird even thinking about staying in a hotel for a night.
Ok, I'm going for "only fully vaxed folks" for a while. It's time for me. Hotels, not for a while, no control. Not that we allegedly need any but I trust other folks to be keeping lesser standards than us. Bless their journeys. I'll stay with mine for now. And I have to say Ms Otter has half say so we'll see. I think we're pretty close to being on the same page you and I.
 
Ok, I'm going for "only fully vaxed folks" for a while. It's time for me. Hotels, not for a while, no control. Not that we allegedly need any but I trust other folks to be keeping lesser standards than us. Bless their journeys. I'll stay with mine for now. And I have to say Ms Otter has half say so we'll see. I think we're pretty close to being on the same page you and I.
Next time I'm possibly scheduled to be in a hotel would be if my daughter actually gets a college graduation, so we're talking mid-June at the earliest. I hope the world is a different place by then.

And maybe by that last week of July my wife and I can take the dog and get away for a three day trip up the coast. Been since summer of 2018 since I got to do that!
 
Hey shed, all caught up again.

I read through some of the nutrient info, although very interesting to read, it was way over my head still :laughtwo: great info to see in journals none the less and coming from very knowledgeable people. Thumbs up!

Things are still moving along for you here, I'll sit back and try to learn some more. :ganjamon:

Hope you and Mrs. Shed got to take that trip to the coast. I'd love to get back to the maritime provinces and see my family, hopefully next year we will go.
 
Hey shed, all caught up again.
I read through some of the nutrient info, although very interesting to read, it was way over my head still :laughtwo: great info to see in journals none the less and coming from very knowledgeable people. Thumbs up!
Things are still moving along for you here, I'll sit back and try to learn some more.
Hope you and Mrs. Shed got to take that trip to the coast. I'd love to get back to the maritime provinces and see my family, hopefully next year we will go.
Thanks dick! The spring grow is starting to pick up and soon it will just be two plants plus the Candida for seeding. THen it won't be long before I drop the Jack Herer and the Chiquita Banana from @Weed Seeds Express for the summer!

My wife and I used to go up the coast when the kids were off at sleep away camp during the last week of July, but in 2019 we got our new puppy in June and last summer goes without saying. :) So maybe this year we'll find a nice spot? Not placing bets or reservations yet!

I hope you get to see your family before they forget who you are. ;)
 
I thinned the Candidas this morning
Nice job on the thinning :thumb:

And it was seed day when the mail arrived this morning!
Free seeds.....Woo Hoo! Well deserved on your part.

In other news, my wife and I have our vaccine appointments on Friday morning
That’s great news! It’s been over a month since my second Pfizer shot. My wife got her second Pfizer shot on Saturday. It’s a great to have that sense of safety & security, peace of mind and and a feeling of freedom.
 
Nice haircuts on the Candidas, and congrats on the new seeds!
And maybe by that last week of July my wife and I can take the dog and get away for a three day trip up the coast.
I hope that works out for you two three this year- being fully vaccinated by then will definitely make for a less stressful trip!
 
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