InTheShed Grows Inside & Out: Jump In Any Time

[dynamo1]

hey hey that's my mom ...

I wasn't referring to your mom, it was connected to my previous post. I respect moms

 

[bluter]

I wasn't referring to your mom, it was connected to my previous post. I respect moms

it's all cool. only a laugh. if you knew my parents it would be even funnier.

 

[bluter]

hey @InTheShed you know there is a turbo dodge caravan ... you can actually build the piss right out of them.. they call them racing toasters

 

[InTheShed]

Moved on to a Honda Odyssey after that one! We've had three since then I think.

 

[bluter]

odyssey is cool ... all that middle age hauling .. drool ...

but it's no racing toaster. srs you can make them blistering fast.
with added thrill of the possibility of the entire thing coming apart at speed.. usually more than a possibility

it is dodge

 

[ChefDGreen]

I'm not sure how much of this discussion you've read, but Chef doesn't believe there's a limit at all

..... when we’re talking plant to oil infusion. It’s a limit you will approach but never achieve.

Like this -> you need to walk 10 ft. Your first step is 5ft and every subsequent step is half the distance of the previous step. You can approach your goal, but you will never actually achieve 10ft.

you add to that the fact that you’re adding plant lipids to the carrier oil and you’re pushing your limit even farther every time you add plant material to your infused oil.

 

[syenite]

..... when we’re talking plant to oil infusion. It’s a limit you will approach but never achieve.

Like this -> you need to walk 10 ft. Your first step is 5ft and every subsequent step is half the distance of the previous step. You can approach your goal, but you will never actually achieve 10ft.

you add to that the fact that you’re adding plant lipids to the carrier oil and you’re pushing your limit even farther every time you add plant material to your infused oil.

That's like one of Zeno's paradoxes! And I totally get what you mean now.

 

[The Celt]

I believe I now understand where Chef was going with “no limits” after his last post, thanks @ChefDGreen

Let me see if I can put it in words and Chef can correct me if I go off tract or am completely wrong

Because we are working with oils/fats (plant and/or animal) both Cannabinoids and terpenes are oily liquids at room temperature and we are dissolving them with another oil/fat.

IMPORTANT and keep this in mind, in general, higher temperatures will allow carriers oils to dissolve greater amounts of the secondary oil.

There comes a point, where are carrier oil will not dissolve anymore THC (using this oil as our example), at a given temperature, but more can still be added. You can increase the temperature but here is what happens:

Say we have 2 containers, one containing an ounce of butter (our carrier oil) and a second containing an ounce pure THC oil. We heat both to say 170F. We add the THC oil to the butter, slowly and stirring as we go. Initially, the butter will dissolve the THC and the level in our butter pot will remain the same (just like mixing pure alcohol with water) but we will come to a point where the volume in the butter pot starts to grow. This is the point at which we reached saturation at that temperature.

If we stop at this point (saturation point at 170F) and we let things cool to room temperature, as the solution cools and the butter starts to solidify, you will see ’oils’ sweating out of the surface. These droplets would be THC oil. At room temperature, the saturation point is lower and the butter is not able to hold all the THC in solution at the lower temperature.

Equate it to RH and dew point. At higher temperatures, air holds more water but then as it cools, creates dew.

Now if we go back to our heated solution and we can add more THC oil, beyond its saturation point, but it will no longer dissolve into the butter and our volume increases. We can add the entire ounce of THC oil to our ounce of butter, and continue mixing as it cools and we get an emulsification. A mixture of 2 liquids that are not soluble in each other:

Think Italian Salad Dressing.

If you had enough cannabis oil on hand, you could try the above and it will work. As for soaking/cooking bud in an oil, I don’t believe you could get much above the saturation point at a given temperature. The Cannabinoids are not in an oil form.

@ChefDGreen being an actual chef is better suited to answer that question than I am, I am just an engineer I understand the chemistry/physics but I am no chef

 

[ChefDGreen]

What you’ve said seems pretty much on point with what I mean. You add a boiling water dunk to purge your flower material of excess oils and you’ve driven the cannabinoids that wouldn’t go into solution out of the buds at least. Being that their lipophilic and hydrophobic they should stick with the oil though they may not be “in solution.”(I put quotes cause I don’t think that’s exactly the right verbiage for the behavior of lipids)

Add to that, a decent amount of lecithin and your thc that won’t stay in solution will disperse throughout the oil. Yes, eventually it would float to the top (or sink to the bottom given relative density) but as long as you stir well before you portion some out for your recipes the concentration of cannabinoids should be even throughout the oil. Again, think salad dressing.

 

[VexGrows]

Hey hey. Checking in. So many pages, so little time! Haha

 

[HashGirl]

Phrased differently and more concretely, I wonder if anyone here has actually needed their infusions stronger and found that they couldn't achieve that desired strength?

But yes: my kingdom for a lab!

Yes, I prefer a small amount portion wise so stronger is better. I make infused chocolates to help me sleep, I don't want a lot of calories to fatten me up while I sleep.

I'll bet it's of interest to Hash Girl as well, given the number and size of capsules she takes a day.

I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious here! Whether dynamo has hit a limit or not doesn't mean we can't wonder which of our oils has the highest saturation point and what that might be.

My biggest problem with getting the strength I need consistently isn't so much the quantity of capsules I take, it's the lack of supply. As we get better and better with growing, this will improve and then I can make infusions that I can re-infuse until it's the strength I need.

 

[Heavenly Hybrid]

I'll bet it's of interest to Hash Girl as well, given the number and size of capsules she takes a da

My biggest problem with getting the strength I need consistently isn't so much the quantity of capsules I take, it's the lack of supply. As we get better and better with growing, this will improve and then I can make infusions that I can re-infuse until it's the strength I need.

Hey Hash Girl, I’m wondering if you’ve looked into making RSO? I’ve only watched a tutorial on how to make it, so I don’t know a ton about it, but it seems more in line with your level of dosage? Just a thought.

 

[The Celt]

The results of QWET are THCa (since 178ºF will not break the acid bond) and are thick resin/oily. I thought crystal THCa was produced with pressure and increasing heat.

Morning Shed, I wanted to come back and revisit this in regards to decarboxylation. As I had mentioned previously, it’s a combination of time and temperature.

Not sure if you have seen this graph before or not, it’s from 30yr old research and has been floating around for years. I had seen it many times but paid it little attention, mostly because I understood the chemistry and had no issues with potency of my oils

As you can see, at 176F, it would take much longer than the time to just boil off the alcohol. At 201F we can see a change within an hour, and at 223F we have quadrupled the levels of THC in that hour.

If you wanted to, and I may in the future, run your wash in a Soxhlet system for a few hours prior to removing the alcohol and decarboxylate without losing any of the terpenes. You could then vacuum distill with a fractionating column to remove the alcohol and maintain all the decarbed Cannabinoids and terpenes.

Here is an actual paper confirming the above graph that was published just 4 years ago. Gives the process and procedures used in there research and findings. It also has much better graphs showing the changes in THC vs THCa levels.

Decarboxylation research

 

[PK]

did i step into the math class?

 

[The Celt]

Morning @PK always seems to be science classes on the go here

 

[PK]

Morning @PK always seems to be science classes on the go here

Morning dude!

 

[BeezLuiz]

Not sure if you have seen this graph before or not, it’s from 30yr old research and has been floating around for years.

If I remember correctly, that graph is from decarb done in an open container on a hot plate, and I don't think they even used flower - was an extract of some sort. Decarb methods have changed significantly since then.

 

[The Celt]

Yes @BeezLuiz , it was as you say, an n-hexane extract. This is why I brought it up, we were discussing RHO not de-carbing during the removal of the alcohol and temperatures required to de-carb.

To the best of my knowledge, this process could not be used for de-carbing flower. Not because the chemistry is any different, there is just no way to maintain the terpenes in the flower.

 

[InTheShed]

but it's no racing toaster

Never wanted a racing toaster, so that worked out rather well!

with added thrill of the possibility of the entire thing coming apart at speed.. usually more than a possibility
it is dodge

LOL! That was my sense when I hit 100.

when we’re talking plant to oil infusion. It’s a limit you will approach but never achieve.
Like this -> you need to walk 10 ft. Your first step is 5ft and every subsequent step is half the distance of the previous step. You can approach your goal, but you will never actually achieve 10ft.
you add to that the fact that you’re adding plant lipids to the carrier oil and you’re pushing your limit even farther every time you add plant material to your infused oil.

So every time I try to infuse bud into oil I am not only never going to reach a theoretical limit, but the goal posts keep moving with the addition of plant oils to the mix?

What we're left with, it seems, is a discussion of what is the point of diminishing returns that makes the next infusion an unworthy return on investment.

There comes a point, where are carrier oil will not dissolve anymore THC (using this oil as our example), at a given temperature,
as it cools and we get an emulsification. A mixture of 2 liquids that are not soluble in each other:

Since this isn't a purely theoretical conversation, we need everything to stay mixed at storage temperatures!

As for soaking/cooking bud in an oil, I don’t believe you could get much above the saturation point at a given temperature. The Cannabinoids are not in an oil form.

And that saturation point is...?

a decent amount of lecithin and your thc that won’t stay in solution will disperse throughout the oil.

So lecithin increases the hypothetical limit of saturation.

My biggest problem with getting the strength I need consistently isn't so much the quantity of capsules I take, it's the lack of supply. As we get better and better with growing, this will improve and then I can make infusions that I can re-infuse until it's the strength I need.

Is there no way to get the buds you do have infused into less oil? That would lower the number of capsules you would need to take in a day.

Not sure if you have seen this graph before or not, it’s from 30yr old research and has been floating around for years. I had seen it many times but paid it little attention, mostly because I understood the chemistry and had no issues with potency of my oils

I have seen that graph, and I actually projected the 176º line out to see where it touched the 252º line in time. It was weeks out!

As you can see, at 176F, it would take much longer than the time to just boil off the alcohol.

Which is why I mentioned that that temperature would be too low for decarbing. Hence the need to decarb after QWET.

If you wanted to, and I may in the future, run your wash in a Soxhlet system for a few hours prior to removing the alcohol and decarboxylate without losing any of the terpenes. You could then vacuum distill with a fractionating column to remove the alcohol and maintain all the decarbed Cannabinoids and terpenes.

Hard pass, but thanks Celt! I look forward to your build though.

Here is an actual paper confirming the above graph that was published just 4 years ago. Gives the process and procedures used in there research and findings. It also has much better graphs showing the changes in THC vs THCa levels.

Damn vacuum ovens...another thing on my list of things to buy!

"Methods: C. sativa extracts were used for the studies. Decarboxylation conditions were examined at 80°C, 95°C, 110°C, 130°C, and 145°C for different times up to 60 min in a vacuum oven."

Also looks like their 176º line flattens out well below decarb too. I just did it with a ruler and graph paper.

did i step into the math class?

You never know what class might be going on here PK!

 

[dynamo1]

Damn vacuum ovens...another thing on my list of things to buy!

Add a steam oven for bread on your list, it's on mine