InTheShed Grows Inside & Out: Jump In Any Time

[The Celt]

The results of QWET are THCa (since 178ºF will not break the acid bond) and are thick resin/oily. I thought crystal THCa was produced with pressure and increasing heat.

Yes, most will be THCa dominate but the terpenes tend to be liquid and keep the entire thing ‘oily’.

That 178F is somewhat miss leading. It requires temperature AND time for decarbing. And they are inversely dependant on one another. Higher temps = shorter time, but lower temps = longer time. Bud decarbs in a jar at room temps, but is a very very slow process. It’s also not a linear process, it starts off fast, but as more and more THCa converts to THC, the process becomes slower and slower. The reason 178F is often quoted, is because this appears to be the temp that converts the most THC in the shortest time, minimizing the lose of terpenes.

Here’s the thing though, if you continue to cook oil it long enough, you can cook off a lot of the terpenes and it will become hard like shatter. Now take that hard oil, put it in a sealed container for a month, it will slowly become more resinous and settle to the bottom of the container. It will also start to develop an oily sheen on the surface, this is decarbed THC.

As for THCa crystals (diamond) they are a patience game The easiest way for the home grower to harvest diamonds is to make live resin, BHO seems to be the easiest way (I’ve never tried making them) but I think it could be done with QWET or QWISO. Make you resin from fresh, uncured bud/trim, vacuum purge the solvent keeping the temps below 100F to preserve terpenes. Leave the resin in a jar for 2+ weeks and crystals will start to form. When you decide there are enough crystals produced, do a final purge to remove any residual solvent. The longer you wait, the more crystals will form, and if you want, you can vacuum purge the terps off at a higher temp during the final purge and be left with mostly pure THCa crystal.

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks Celt, but I don't feel any need to make THCa diamonds!

That 178F is somewhat miss leading. It requires temperature AND time for decarbing. And they are inversely dependant on one another. Higher temps = shorter time, but lower temps = longer time. Bud decarbs in a jar at room temps, but is a very very slow process. It’s also not a linear process, it starts off fast, but as more and more THCa converts to THC, the process becomes slower and slower. The reason 178F is often quoted, is because this appears to be the temp that converts the most THC in the shortest time, minimizing the lose of terpenes.

178ºF is the temperature at which pure ethanol boils off (so QWET is actually heated to the mid 180ºs), and that is much too low for decarboxylation to happen. I'm not sure how much decarb happens at lower temps over how long a time, but in the time it takes to boil off the alcohol there isn't much happening. Folks who complain on the board that they don't feel the effects of their rosin almost always have skipped the decarb step.

Still, the "oil" leftover from the extraction process are plant waxes?

 

[The Celt]

Still, the "oil" leftover from the extraction process are plant waxes?

They ”can” be, depending on whether it was winterized or not, plant waxes and terpenes. Winterizing will remove the waxes but not the terpenes. I winterized washes I intend to smoke, and don’t bother if the oil is headed for edibles.

I have no doubt you made oils so I know you know the process but let me see if I can include the science behind it to help explain where I was going with temperatures and plant waxes.

First the plant waxes (lipids). These are essentially fat, just plant fat rather than from animals. Like animal fats, they are an organic solvent and can dissolve cannabinoids and terpenes just as well and likely better. Plant waxes also tend to liquify at much lower temperatures than animal fats. Think of chocolate melting in your hand. The higher the content of cocoa butter, the lower the temperature it melts.

When we make hash, we are collecting the bulbous trichome glands, which are for all intents and purposes, balls of plant wax with cannabinoids and terpenes dissolved in them. This is why I made the comment that plant fats (waxes) are likely better at dissolving Cannabinoids than animal fats, plant waxes were designed (Evolved) to hold Cannabinoids.

Making hash, we miss out on some of the terpenes, as some are formed in other types of trichomes that don’t have ”heads”, we do get them in solvent extracts though.

OK so back to the temperatures and QWET. If they are making it and only cooking until the bubbles stop, as most recommend, then yes, there is not enough time to decarb enough to notice. If they then use it as a tincture/capsule, then they would feel little if anything, it’s mostly THCa as you say. If they are smoking it, should be no different, bud contains mostly THCa. As for edibles, unless it is being used in something baked or otherwise exposed to higher/longer temps, again it would be mostly THCa.

Now on the other hand, if they cooked it 12hrs or 24hrs (which I sometimes do) you will get decarboxylation, how much i don’t know, that would require lab testing which I don’t have access to here one day maybe.

This is likely why the multiple cooking in MB machines with breaks between, like I have seen discussed earlier, are producing “rocket fuel”. As I mentioned earlier, as the ratio of THC to THCa starts to favour the THC, during decarb, the process slows. Not only are they dissolving more and more Cannabinoids, they are pushing the conversion process closer to 100%. Which btw, all the research I have come across, suggest 100% conversion is not possible by normal means because as you get closer, you start losing THC to CBN.

edit: btw, there is a fair bit of research now on THCa suggesting it may be better than THC for some issues

 

[InTheShed]

First the plant waxes (lipids). These are essentially fat, just plant fat rather than from animals.

Oh okay! So the waxes are plant fats and would be considered oil in the vernacular. So when Chef says were are pooling like solvents, that's what he's talking about.

Does any of this aid us in determining whether there is a saturation point when infusing bud (not extract) into a carrier oil?

This is likely why the multiple cooking in MB machines with breaks between, like I have seen discussed earlier, are producing “rocket fuel”. As I mentioned earlier, as the ratio of THC to THCa starts to favour the THC, during decarb, the process slows. Not only are they dissolving more and more Cannabinoids, they are pushing the conversion process closer to 100%. Which btw, all the research I have come across, suggest 100% conversion is not possible by normal means because as you get closer, you start losing THC to CBN.

I'm pretty sure that all of us using the MB have gone through the decarb process in a similar fashion. I haven't had any of my THC oils tested, but my CBD oil contains virtually no CBDa, which indicates complete decarboxylation. I think the multiple heating and cooling process on the oil (or just the length of time the bud sits in it) has more to do with its effects than any additional decarb happening over time at 160ºF, but without access to cheap testing, it's still all conjecture!

 

[The Celt]

I’ve never come across any scientific values for saturation point, I did read one article that was done with testing where clarified butter showed the best absorption and another that without testing I would consider with-a-grain-of-salt that gave 11g of THC per stick of butter which I assume is a 1/4lb. If so, that would indicate 9.7% wt/wt saturation. That’s FN potent

 

[InTheShed]

I posted a link yesterday to the clarified butter article! They also got different results from different labs. :shrugs:

 

[InTheShed]

I posted a link yesterday to the clarified butter article!

Here...

 

[The Celt]

I may order a LC test kit after Xmas to play with testing my bud to get an idea, but will be glad when they finally get some labs set up here that are willing to do private testing

 

[The Celt]

Here...

Ya, same one I read and it really doesn’t offer anything overly useful does it

 

[InTheShed]

I use a lab in SF but the oil cost me $75/test. I don't know what flower costs but if I ever pull the trigger on an electric distiller I may have some rosin tested just for interest.

I may order a LC test kit

Is that the one with the circles on paper like Chris Scorpio used to use?

Ya, same one I read and it really doesn’t offer anything overly useful does it

Srsly!

 

[The Celt]

Likely is either the same one or a similar test. Its a Thin Film Liquid Chromatography test. I have used them before, for other things, and are fairly accurate, just no overly precise. A reading of 20 could be anywhere from 17.5 to 22.5. They make a good potency indicator but useless if you want to test for dosing.

 

[The Celt]

The biggest reason I really want one, is to test Cannatonic phenos to see which plants are the high CBD.

 

[InTheShed]

Good idea! Then keep a mother and never think about it again.

 

[syenite]

For me, while it's of theoretical interest, the saturation point of carrier oils isn't otherwise very meaningful to me.

Phrased differently and more concretely, I wonder if anyone here has actually needed their infusions stronger and found that they couldn't achieve that desired strength?

But yes: my kingdom for a lab!

 

[dynamo1]

I wonder if anyone here has actually needed their infusions stronger

Yes, I prefer a small amount portion wise so stronger is better. I make infused chocolates to help me sleep, I don't want a lot of calories to fatten me up while I sleep.

 

[syenite]

Yes, I prefer a small amount portion wise so stronger is better. I make infused chocolates to help me sleep, I don't want a lot of calories to fatten me up while I sleep.

That makes sense! And you managed to hit a limit where they just weren't getting any stronger?

 

[InTheShed]

I wonder if anyone here has actually needed their infusions stronger and found that they couldn't achieve that desired strength?

I'll bet it's of interest to Hash Girl as well, given the number and size of capsules she takes a day.

And you managed to hit a limit where they just weren't getting any stronger?

I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious here! Whether dynamo has hit a limit or not doesn't mean we can't wonder which of our oils has the highest saturation point and what that might be.

 

[syenite]

I'm not sure if you're trolling or serious here! Whether dynamo has hit a limit or not doesn't mean we can't wonder which of our oils has the highest saturation point and what that might be.

Haha, sorry for the lack of clarity!

My distinction is between it being a "theoretical" limit (i.e. we know that there is a limit but no one ever encounters it), and a "practical" limit (i.e. we know there's a limit and yes we hit it all the time).

Those aren't the best terms.

It's perhaps the difference between wondering, "I wonder how fast my car can go?", and "I wonder if anyone needs to drive their car as fast as it can go?"

 

[InTheShed]

we know that there is a limit but no one ever encounters it),

I'm not sure how much of this discussion you've read, but Chef doesn't believe there's a limit at all, so there's that. Also, BeezLuiz posted info from the Nova website where they found diminishing returns rather quickly upon re-running oil, so there's that as well.

In terms of your car reference, I would definitely like to know if the top speed of my car is 90mph vs 120mph before I need to pass a truck on a two lane road.

 

[syenite]

I'm not sure how much of this discussion you've read, but Chef doesn't believe there's a limit at all, so there's that. Also, BeezLuiz posted info from the Nova website where they found diminishing returns rather quickly upon re-running oil, so there's that as well.

Ah, sorry, in my "theoretical" example, that was just an example in which there was in fact a limit. It was a theory, in theory, in my example. LOL

Haha, I did read through it, and then my face went from this



to this

In terms of your car reference, I would definitely like to know if the top speed of my car is 90mph vs 120mph before I need to pass a truck on a two lane road.

Hmm no that's still not what I mean. The question is entirely whether it would be 120mph (meaningful in certain situations) vs. 180mph (which, I'm guessing, isn't all that useful).

.....I also don't know shit about cars