How to get started growing indoors organically - No bottles

Cannabelle said:
I am so happy to encounter someone with your in depth knowledge of organics.:yahoo:
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welcome Cannabelle!!! Id like to send your statement above in quotes right back at ya! I just woke up having coffee and a bowl and read conradino's statement about inoculating the root. A true statement, and one that requires way more elaboration. I agree wholeheartedly with everything in your post (-using m.g. perlite) and appreciate you sharing your knowledge of Glomus intradices. I think "Myco" products have been marketed very well and are widely used by cannabis growers. Previously I used the great white product, but through research I find it to be snake oil for my purposes. I am in the market for a new endomycorrhizal fungi product and I have learned enough now to know what to look for. Im looking for glomus intradices and I will be evaluating products based on spore (also called propagules) count of around 3200/gram. Let me explain why I think great white is snake oil for my purposes. This is pretty interesting stuff and I would be surprised if many people understood this information.

First off, im am looking for glomus intradices because it has been proven through studies to easily colonize roots in most plants and it is available cheaper, made in America. Great white contains a glomus intradices spore count of 50 spores per cc. This is gonna get better real quick bear with me.

spores/propagules in great white:
Endomycorrhiza / cc:

Glomus aggregatum - 50 spores per cc
Glomus intraradices - 50 spores per cc
Glomus mosseae - 50 spores per cc
Glomus etunicatum - 50 spores per cc
Glomus clarum - 6 spores per cc
Glomus monosporum - 6 spores per cc
Glomus brazilianum - 6 spores per cc
Gigaspora margarita - 6 spores per cc

Ectomycorrhiza / cc:

Pisolithus tinctorious - 112,500 spores per cc
Rhizopogon luteolus - 3,125 spores per cc
Rhizopogon fulvigleba - 3,125 spores per cc
Rhizopogon villosullus - 3,125 spores per cc
Rhizopogon amylopogon - 3,125 spores per cc
Scleroderma citrinum - 3,125 spores per cc
Scleroderma cepa - 3,125 spores per cc

Beneficial Bacteria - contains 269,786 CFU’s per CC of each of the following 13 species:

Azobacter Chroococcum
Bacillus thuringiensis
Bacillus subtillus
Bacillus licheniformis
Bacillus azotoformanas
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus coagulans
Bacillus pumlis
Paenibacillus polymyxa
Paenibacillus durum
Saccharomyces Cerevisiae
Psuedomonas aureofaceans
Psuedomonas florescence

Trichoderma:

Trichoderma konigii - 93,750 spores per cc
Trichoderma harzianum - 93,750 spores per cc

A quick word on trichoderma, it eats fungi. Yeah like Glomus mosseae and Glomus intraradices, considered to be the "good" fungi to have colonize your roots. Great white has 200000 propagules per cc of trichoderma and 100 combined of Glomus intraradices and mosseae. Given this information, great white seems like a beneficial bacteria and trichoderma product with a built in fungi lunch box.

There is nothing wrong with trichoderma really other than buying it ultra expensively for the small amount of endomycorrhizal fungi, which it will just consume. tricoderma itself has been proven to colonize roots and even take hold in the soil in the absence of roots. Furthurmore, endomycorrhizal fungi has been showed in some studies, to take up to 6 weeks for full colonization (infection) of the roots. Tricoderma has been shown to be a quick colonizer and does function as a root/plant protector and may increase nutrient uptake. So trichoderma is not at all bad. In my no till containers I want endomycorrhizal fungi and I will see the full benefit of using it. Someone who is growing a quick autoflowering plant and then tossing or recycling the soil would likely be better served by using a trichoderma product, but not at the price of great white.

Now I gotta ask? what in the heck are you using miracle grow perlite for? that shit is toxic to soil microorganisms. cant u go to a local brewery and ask for spent brewers grains, purchase pumice or lava rock, or something else?

edit: dynamic accumulators (or hyper or nutrient accumulators): plants that "mine" minerals from the soil and store nutrients in their leaf tissue. wide range of uses, one could literally grow and/or gather all his fertilizer! I have a blog entry I copied from a gentleman much wiser than myself on the subject, you should check it out.
 
Hugs, COorganics

Regarding the Miracle Grow perlite and vermiculite:
It's what's available nearby. Unfortunately, I live in the city and cannot venture outside in the sun during normal business hours to make it to the country feed stores to get more organic materials. (My 420 blog describes my condition) I don't and can't drink alcoholic beverages so I have no clue what goes into brewing beer. I'll start pestering the local breweries for soil amendments. Thank you for the suggestion. Soon I'll be able to do a total shift to organic and shed the annoying Miracle Grow products!

I wholeheartedly do not recommend Miracle Grow products as they appear to stunt cannabis seedlings.

Mycorrhizal stuff:
I don't use commercial myc products because there are just silly amounts of unnecessary microorganisms that just don't work with the deciduous trees and soft botanicals that I grow. Ecto mycorrhiza work with evergreen woods. I don't know why a cannabis soil conditioner would even include ectos. It's like they used the shotgun approach with the different mycs hoping that one would get it right.

Seriously, the Trichoderma needs to be packaged separately and has better commercial value as a jean fabric enhancer. Trichoderma will also attempt to digest organic fabric pots which is why it is used commercially to make jean fabric soft and stone washed. Trichoderma not only crowds out bad fungi, but also crowds out Glomus. Glomus has better value as a temperature control agent, nutrient transport partner, soil purifier, and allelopathic partner. An allelopathic allium partner such as garlic or bunching onions should be used to lower populations of bad fungi in the cannabis rhizosphere.

Serendipitous allelopathy:
Glomus intradices and etunicatum are the endo mycorrhizzae most used in rice and bunching onion propagation in Japan, China and South Korea. Fortunately for me, Glomus and bunching onions also form a beneficial allelopathic relationship with cannabis. I found this out by accident when I stuck the chopped stalks of the bunching onions that I had used to make Japanese miso soup, into the pots of Delicious Cotton Candy and Medicann Blue Blood seedlings that were stunted by the Miracle Grow products. I wasn't about to waste good Glomus intradices spores on a failed cannabis grow. Honestly, if I hadn't used annoying Miracle Grow perlite and vermiculite products in my coco soil mix, I would never have discovered that alliums benefit cannabis. I have to look through my digital camera to post the dramatic results of this serendipitous discovery.

I'll just have to write more on allelopathy and mycorrhizal relationships in another thread because I do not want to hijack your thread. I have not found any cannabis related allelopathic research in science repositories so the information will be exclusive to 420 Magazine. I actually ventured on 420 Magazine to see if other more experienced growers practiced allelopathy.
 
yeah start another thread so this one doesn't overwhelm folks new to living soil growing. It seems like it was nice to breakdown the great white product and spread some knowledge there though, thanks for you contributions.
 
heck yeah, you'll dig I promise. Im not making this stuff up myself or winging it as I go along, quite the contrary. You must run autos outside where u are at? I tried a photoperiod plant outside in the mountains at 9000ft and you can guess how it ended up. It was 5 ft tall and covered in snow when I cut it down and just composted it.

Did you read about the great white myco product? If so what did ya think?
 
I'm in MT. We don't have enough time for photo plants unless you cover em up religiously and force flower. I did autos this year, a bunch were low quality but I found a NYCD that was excellent smoke. I did read bout the great white, and I did a side by side with 12 plants, 6 with and 6 without. I got over a QP more on the 6 I used great white on and they matured a week early so in my eyes at least 1 of the 20 something ingredients made a huge difference.
 
trichoderma. which I can find online for $9/28 grams with a spore count of 50,000,000 spores/gram. great white is just a HUGE rip off for the reasons provided above. It sure seems like so many people are content paying whatever is charged for stuff that comes in a cannabis marketed bottle without ever questioning the proprietary formulas and what function individual listed ingredients serve. Im looking for inquiring minds like my own to share this information with. I can pm you links to the information I used to compile the post on great white if you are so inclined just let me know.

you should consider something like this when you use up your existing supply of great white.
Trichoderma Inoculant – Kelp4less

a quote from the web page linked below:
"Necrotrophic mycoparasites, like the species of Trichoderma at right can be extremely destructive to other fungi. They often spread rapidly, completely surrounding and covering their hosts in a few hours or days."
Fungal parasites of other fungi

remember, great white has more trichoderma than all other various spores combined. Tricoderma is proven to destroy the other miniscule amounts of endo and ecto fungi, especially at those ratios. And it (tricoderma w/o the fungi lunchbox) is available for $9 for an ounce, with spore counts that dwarf the numbers in great white. and tricoderma has been proven on its own to boost plant/root health. that's whats up!
 
thanks for including necrotrophic mycoparasites in your myco product plant success. wonderful. lol. here is a little bit of myco and a whole shit ton of myco parasites! Nobody is questioning it because it does produce some results. I used it for a while myself. Heck, why do you think im ticked about it?, they got my hard earned money.
 
no doubt its beneficial brother, ive seen it in tlo containers where I forgot to dust a transplant hole.
that's why its so damn tricky. How many weed growers want to study fungi? Not enough to hurt great white sales, im sure they are riding around in Ferraris snortin' orca. Lol, just got a little too crazy there..

Cant argue with science though, in a lot of ways its easier to not see this info and keep using stuff like great white. Now you're like "dammit, they are screwing me, but I love how my grows are going... a conundrum for sure" :)
 
COorganics,

If you wish to try your hand at high concentration Glomus intradices, Endomaxima claims to contain at minimum 1,450,000 viable spores of Glomus intradices per pound.

I've been working with mycorrhizal fungi and other beneficial mircoorganisms in horticulture for 25 years.
 
no thanks I just ordered a 5 gallon bucket of great white for a cool $2K, just joking. thanks for the link. it reminds me of this one im looking at right now, MYKE® PRO PS3 - mycorrhizae product

I guess you cant just walk into a store and purchase either of these two. any idea on price for endomaxima?
 
COorganics said:
If you are serious about growing cannabis, and you are serious about doing it organically then you need to seriously look at the information I'm sharing with you here. This isn't just another organic soil mix, it is the best organic soil mix.
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After you initially introduced me to this soil mix I researched thoroughly and had to agree with your assessment. I have my initial batch cooking now and couldn't be more pleased with the quality I see. Thanks for starting this thread CO.
 
marzbadrock said:
4 oz jar of great white is $32.00, the price isn't horrible.
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you're right, it certainly isn't the end of the world. But, look at it from this angle. they lead consumers to believe they are getting an endo and ecto myco product when all they are effectively getting is trichoderma for fungi. You have to look at spores, not volume or weight of the package to determine value then. The trichoderma product I linked has 50,000,000 spores per gram at 9$/oz. The great white has 200,000 spores per gram at $32/4oz. When looking at it in this light, it is pretty darn expensive.

And then we have to figure out if we want trichoderma in the first place. If we in fact were intending to utilize a mycorrhizal inoculant then the science says we need to avoid trichoderma altogether.
 
Sweetsue said:
After you initially introduced me to this soil mix I researched thoroughly and had to agree with your assessment. I have my initial batch cooking now and couldn't be more pleased with the quality I see. Thanks for starting this thread CO.
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you bet, sue.
 
COorganics said:
your right it certainly isn't the end of the world. But they lead consumers to believe they are getting an endo and ecto myco product when all they are effectively getting is trichoderma for fungi. You have to look at spores, not volume or weight of the package to determine value then. The trichoderma product I linked has 50,000,000 spores per gram at 9$/oz. The great white has 200,000 spores per gram at $32/oz. When looking at it in this light, it is pretty darn expensive.

And then we have to figure out if we want trichoderma in the first place. If we in fact were intending to utilize a mycorrhizal inoculant then the science says we need to avoid trichoderma altogether.
Click to expand...

I agree with ya, I was just crunching number in my head n realized a 5 gallon bucket at 2 large would be a steal! I truly am interested in your method, after checking your link I see they offer many product that need researched on how, what, n why to use it before I actually use it.
 
Hello sir I am processing your order, Just to confirm that's 10ea of the 25lb pails of great white at $2000 for a grand total of $20,000. Now if I could just please have the c.c. number that you wish to use for this transaction?

:morenutes:

he heee he...
 

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