How not to be a salt farmer or a wasteful grower tips

[Trump]

Lab advise request;
If anyone can suggest lab(s) in CT or MA area for soil, compost and flower testing that provides detailed analysis I’d really like to get started in prep for next grow runs. I’ve never done it yet in all these years so a little direction and what I should expect it to cost estimates will be greatly appreciated.

Soil Testing Offices Instructions

portal.ct.gov

Northeast Laboratories | Analytical Testing Laboratory

Northeast Laboratories is a leading analytical testing laboratory in Connecticut, offering chemical, physical, nutritional, and microbiological testing.

www.nelabsct.com

 

[budnoob3]

Lab advise request;
If anyone can suggest lab(s) in CT or MA area for soil, compost and flower testing that provides detailed analysis I’d really like to get started in prep for next grow runs. I’ve never done it yet in all these years so a little direction and what I should expect it to cost estimates will be greatly appreciated.

Why sad @Bill284 ?

 

[budnoob3]

Ethylene is a plant hormone that can be produced in plants through a two-step biochemical pathway:

1. S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM) to 1-aminocyclopropane-1-carboxylic acid (ACC): The enzyme ACC synthase (ACS) converts SAM to ACC.
   
   
2. ACC to ethylene: The enzyme ACC oxidase (ACO) converts ACC to ethylene.

 

[budnoob3]

Environmental cues like flooding, drought, chilling, wounding, and pathogen attack can also trigger ethylene production in plants. Seeds with higher vigor produce more ethylene than seeds with lower vigor. Ethylene plays a role in the germination process of some seeds, such as increasing radicle emergence in unfavorable conditions.

Ethylene can also be produced industrially through steam cracking, a process that breaks down hydrocarbons in petroleum or natural gas.

To expose seeds to ethylene gas, you can place a ripe banana in the germination environment. This can be done in soil or in a bag with damp paper towels and seeds.

 

[budnoob3]

. Ethylene plays a key role in dormancy release in numerous species, the effective concentrations allowing the germination of dormant seeds ranging between 0.1 and 200 μL L(-1). Studies using inhibitors of ethylene biosynthesis or of ethylene action and analysis of mutant lines altered in genes involved in the ethylene signaling pathway (etr1, ein2, ain1, etr1, and erf1) demonstrate the involvement of ethylene in the regulation of germination and dormancy. Ethylene counteracts ABA effects through a regulation of ABA metabolism and signaling pathways. Moreover, ethylene insensitive mutants in Arabidopsis are more sensitive to ABA and the seeds are more dormant. Numerous data also show an interaction between ABA, GAs and ethylene metabolism and signaling pathways. It has been increasingly demonstrated that reactive oxygen species (ROS) may play a significant role in the regulation of seed germination interacting with hormonal signaling pathways. In the present review the responsiveness of seeds to ethylene will be described, and the key role of ethylene in the regulation of seed dormancy via a crosstalk between hormones and other signals will be discussed.

 

[Trump]

. Ethylene plays a key role in dormancy release in numerous species, the effective concentrations allowing the germination of dormant seeds ranging between 0.1 and 200 μL L(-1). Studies using inhibitors of ethylene biosynthesis or of ethylene action and analysis of mutant lines altered in genes involved in the ethylene signaling pathway (etr1, ein2, ain1, etr1, and erf1) demonstrate the involvement of ethylene in the regulation of germination and dormancy. Ethylene counteracts ABA effects through a regulation of ABA metabolism and signaling pathways. Moreover, ethylene insensitive mutants in Arabidopsis are more sensitive to ABA and the seeds are more dormant. Numerous data also show an interaction between ABA, GAs and ethylene metabolism and signaling pathways. It has been increasingly demonstrated that reactive oxygen species (ROS) may play a significant role in the regulation of seed germination interacting with hormonal signaling pathways. In the present review the responsiveness of seeds to ethylene will be described, and the key role of ethylene in the regulation of seed dormancy via a crosstalk between hormones and other signals will be discussed.

Starting to like the effects Ethelyne might have on cannabis seeds?

I'm really curious as to how this will affect cannabis grows. From the report they said that every seed they exposed was bigger and better. Transfer that to weed and I imagine giant colas in a 2 x 2 tent!

 

[Azimuth]

I'd like to see you do a side by side using ethylene gas exposure to seeds vs normal seeds. I've read a study talking about how exposing seeds to ethylene gas will increase their vigor exponentially. I was trying to do this experiment with some auto seeds but the weather put a stop to that.

The experiment I did was to take the seeds and put them in a plastic bag along with some banana peels. I would change out the peels every few days. I exposed the seeds for two week just like they did. I sprouted them but a heat wave, consistent 110°+ days, killed them off.

Imagine what this will do for your grows if you can fortify your seeds to be more vigorous and hardy to stress.

Accidental Discovery: How a Whiff of an Unusual Chemical Transforms Seedlings Into Super Plants

Researchers have found that treating seeds with ethylene gas increases both their growth and stress tolerance. This discovery, involving enhanced photosynthesis and carbohydrate production in plants, offers a potential breakthrough in improving crop yields and resilience against environmental stress

scitechdaily.com

@RedskinnedRhino

Sorry bud no, that sort of came out wrong I guess. I highly recommend you try it. If you want to see if you can get some seeds with a low probability of germinating to germinate, thats pretty cool stuff. It will work for sure.

Thats the part that I found funny. We already know it works.

Fruit seeds can be ripe and viable in a green fruit, but a sister fruit left to ripen will produce better seeds with a much higher germination rate and mathematically speaking, a huge advantage of being a much better plant that produces better offspring, and we know that ethylene gas that increases in both volume and exposure time on the seed regulates hormones in the seed to basically prime it and get it ready for germination, and the ethylene comes from the fruit as it ripens.

We also know that once viable, a seed isn't feeding from the fruit anymore, it's now dormant until activated, which is what ethylene does, but it is thru exposure to the ripening fruit, not from consuming it.

It's a hormonal reaction thru exposure. So we know it works. It's been used forever simply by wrapping fruit in paper before seeding and planting. It finishes the ripening process of the fruit and brings the fresh seed to peak fertility.

Some plant species reverse the process to slow germination and need a freeze or a flood, or a fire, or whatever other trigger to break dormancy.

So biohacking a seed with ethylene will work. You may not get the best offspring, but it will be better than it would have been in a less viable seed that may have germinated without help from ethylene, because the ethylene is signalling it to wake up and get ready to grow.

Just remember, it's hormonal so you can really screw a plant or seed up too, but for home science heck yeah, I love that stuff.

Got any really old seeds? Hit them all and you might get lucky on a few. Try different exposure times and different volumes of ripening fruit so exposure volume and duration are looked at. If you have lots of seeds try different fruits too.

 

[Bill284]

Why sad @Bill284 ?

Not sad Just not able to help in some areas.
How are you this morning?


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[budnoob3]

Not sad Just not able to help in some areas.
How are you this morning?


Stay safe
Bill284

Morning Bill, just waiting for some sun to continue on with painting and putting in some footings for the addition foundation so we can get to pouring

 

[Bill284]

Morning Bill, just waiting for some sun to continue on with painting and putting in some footings for the addition foundation so we can get to pouring

Be careful, I broke my back doing concrete.
It's a young mans game.



Stay safe
Bill284

 

[budnoob3]

Be careful, I broke my back doing concrete.
It's a young man game.



Stay safe
Bill284

My son is doing all the heavy labor with friends as well as ladder work. I’m mostly directing and supervising

 

[Gee64]

Seeds with higher vigor produce more ethylene than seeds with lower vigor.

This here is very important to note. Seeds of high vigor, so "properly" ripened seeds, have already produced adequate amounts of ethylene and are highly primed. Further exposure to ethylene won't have much of an effect as good exposure has already occurred.

Seeds of lower vigor, such as seeds not properly ripened, or really old seeds where the vigor has dissipated, have a good chance of showing a much higher overall increase in fertility and vigor as they are either not yet, or no longer fully primed.

All ethylene really does is knock on the seeds shell and say "Hey Buddy, get your shit together, you're about to be planted" and if the seed moves some hormones around and then gains exposure to ROS (microbes) of which most healthy seeds are already packed with, presto! you get a great seedling.

The end result is quite often this....
The experiments that succeed were generally run on less than optimal seed batches, and the ones that don't show much improvement were ones trying to make optimal seeds even better.

Just so everyone knows, popping seeds in paper towels or a glass of water kills or puts dormant a huge chunk of the ROS microbes that the seed needs to benefit from the ethylene exposure. They get trapped in the paper or drown in the glass of water. Direct sowing is what the seed has primed itself for.

Also, be aware that every seed has already been exposed to ethylene before you get your hands on it, so your work has already been done for you to some degree, and it wants direct sowing.

Some seeds from some species get primed thru ripening, mainly seeds contained inside fruits and berries, and some are environmentally triggered to produce ethylene to prime themselves, such as forest fires triggering the priming of pine cone seeds.

So if you try and don't notice a difference, there's a pretty good chance you started with a too healthy of a seed, or it needs an environmental trigger.

For many species light can also be a priming trigger as it tells the seed it is now on the ground, not inside the fruit, so wake up and grow.

You can lay seeds of some species in the warm sun on the damp soil surface instead of in a paper towel, and they will prime and pop. Then bury them as soon as you notice the 1st ones starting to split.

That's how a seedling heat mat helps indoor germination. It brings the heat to match the light above. Also thats why for some species, burying the seed too deep makes it remain dormant. No light no ethylene triggering.

So you need to play around a bit before you declare failure, and victory with one species may not translate to victory in all species.

Cannabis is classified as a vegetable, so thats a good start to narrow things down.

I can tell you from both experience and side-by-sides that direct sown seeds will give you better plants in general, as in if you paper towel 100 plants vs direct sowing of 100 plants, the direct sowing will give you better plants on the average. Noticeably better.

Don't judge this part on how quick they crack and sprout, judge it on the end product.

If farmers could up their yield by paper towelling 1 million seeds they would, but they don't, so there's a pretty good indicator of the value of exposure to ROS during the process.

Those ROS are meant to innoculate the immediate soil that the seed cracks in, and get to the roots on day 1. With paper towel you toss most of them away.

Some make it and reinnoculate the soil, but that seedling is at a disadvantage already and in natures environment it would get left behind by the ones that were directly sown.

Want to see something really cool, take some spaghnum, grind it to dust, soak it in rain water to fully hydrate it, then lay a bed of it about an eighth of an inch deep on top of your soil, place a seed on it, and cover it with an eighth of an inch more.

You will need to drip or mist water on it every few hours so it never dries, but when the seed pops and the ROS inside it are released, they go into the sterile spaghnum and have no competition, thus a far greater root innoculation success.

You get really big sproutlings, or really stinky plants, and quite often both, but you also get lots of helmet-heads as soil helps remove the seed husks, spaghnum fails here.

Just don't let them dry out. It's a real PITA for 4 days, but pretty cool results.

So there are many variables at play. I'm not trying to discourage you, just the opposite in fact. If you try and fail, or succeed but can't repeat it, the reason is probably in this post is all.

Straighten that out and consider that most cannabis seeds nowadays are rushed to the consumer, and ethylene can and likely will improve things for you, you just need to figure out how to use it properly, and like always, if you encourage nature to do it for you instead of a synthetic hack, you are likely to get the best results.

A lot of seeds can produce their own ethylene, so if you can trigger that it's better than forced exposure.

 

[Trump]

This here is very important to note. Seeds of high vigor, so "properly" ripened seeds, have already produced adequate amounts of ethylene and are highly primed. Further exposure to ethylene won't have much of an effect as good exposure has already occurred.

Seeds of lower vigor, such as seeds not properly ripened, or really old seeds where the vigor has dissipated, have a good chance of showing a much higher overall increase in fertility and vigor as they are either not yet, or no longer fully primed.

All ethylene really does is knock on the seeds shell and say "Hey Buddy, get your shit together, you're about to be planted" and if the seed moves some hormones around and then gains exposure to ROS (microbes) of which most healthy seeds are already packed with, presto! you get a great seedling.

The end result is quite often this....
The experiments that succeed were generally run on less than optimal seed batches, and the ones that don't show much improvement were ones trying to make optimal seeds even better.

Just so everyone knows, popping seeds in paper towels or a glass of water kills or puts dormant a huge chunk of the ROS microbes that the seed needs to benefit from the ethylene exposure. They get trapped in the paper or drown in the glass of water. Direct sowing is what the seed has primed itself for.

Also, be aware that every seed has already been exposed to ethylene before you get your hands on it, so your work has already been done for you to some degree, and it wants direct sowing.

Some seeds from some species get primed thru ripening, mainly seeds contained inside fruits and berries, and some are environmentally triggered to produce ethylene to prime themselves, such as forest fires triggering the priming of pine cone seeds.

So if you try and don't notice a difference, there's a pretty good chance you started with a too healthy of a seed, or it needs an environmental trigger.

For many species light can also be a priming trigger as it tells the seed it is now on the ground, not inside the fruit, so wake up and grow.

You can lay seeds of some species in the warm sun on the damp soil surface instead of in a paper towel, and they will prime and pop. Then bury them as soon as you notice the 1st ones starting to split.

That's how a seedling heat mat helps indoor germination. It brings the heat to match the light above. Also thats why for some species, burying the seed too deep makes it remain dormant. No light no ethylene triggering.

So you need to play around a bit before you declare failure, and victory with one species may not translate to victory in all species.

Cannabis is classified as a vegetable, so thats a good start to narrow things down.

I can tell you from both experience and side-by-sides that direct sown seeds will give you better plants in general, as in if you paper towel 100 plants vs direct sowing of 100 plants, the direct sowing will give you better plants on the average. Noticeably better.

Don't judge this part on how quick they crack and sprout, judge it on the end product.

If farmers could up their yield by paper towelling 1 million seeds they would, but they don't, so there's a pretty good indicator of the value of exposure to ROS during the process.

Those ROS are meant to innoculate the immediate soil that the seed cracks in, and get to the roots on day 1. With paper towel you toss most of them away.

Some make it and reinnoculate the soil, but that seedling is at a disadvantage already and in natures environment it would get left behind by the ones that were directly sown.

Want to see something really cool, take some spaghnum, grind it to dust, soak it in rain water to fully hydrate it, then lay a bed of it about an eighth of an inch deep on top of your soil, place a seed on it, and cover it with an eighth of an inch more.

You will need to drip or mist water on it every few hours so it never dries, but when the seed pops and the ROS inside it are released, they go into the sterile spaghnum and have no competition, thus a far greater root innoculation success.

You get really big sproutlings, or really stinky plants, and quite often both, but you also get lots of helmet-heads as soil helps remove the seed husks, spaghnum fails here.

Just don't let them dry out. It's a real PITA for 4 days, but pretty cool results.

So there are many variables at play. I'm not trying to discourage you, just the opposite in fact. If you try and fail, or succeed but can't repeat it, the reason is probably in this post is all.

Straighten that out and consider that most cannabis seeds nowadays are rushed to the consumer, and ethylene can and likely will improve things for you, you just need to figure out how to use it properly, and like always, if you encourage nature to do it for you instead of a synthetic hack, you are likely to get the best results.

A lot of seeds can produce their own ethylene, so if you can trigger that it's better than forced exposure.

Interesting. Curious of your background and how you've developed your knowledge base in this area. I agree about the microbes in the seed and how they help it.

I like to sprout in a paper towel so I'm curious about what you posted. I agree that the sprout has certain microbes that are beneficial to the plant overall and help in maximizing their potential. When I sprout a seed in a towel, before I plant it I tear away whatever parts of the towel don't have the tap or tertiary roots growing in it and plant the rest towel and all. I use the shittiest paper towel I can find that break down easily once water hits them. Am I still losing some of the ROS? What does "ROS" mean?

I would imagine that most of the seeds that you buy from breeders could be classified as "young" or not completely ripened going by your explanation. As you mentioned, this would mean that Ethelyne exposure would probably help in most cases unless the breeder had let the plant go to full maturity as in let the seeds drop from the plant rather than hand harvesting them.

I know that seeds in general have microbes both in and outside the seed hull. Does handling them remove some of these microbes? Should they have as little handling to preserve those microbes? Maybe use tweezers to move them around?

I know that one of the ways that seeds get distributed is through animals eating them and then pooping them out at a different location. How does this affect the ROS?

 

[Gee64]

Interesting. Curious of your background and how you've developed your knowledge base in this area.

hehe nice try.

I agree about the microbes in the seed and how they help it.

I like to sprout in a paper towel so I'm curious about what you posted. I agree that the sprout has certain microbes that are beneficial to the plant overall and help in maximizing their potential. When I sprout a seed in a towel, before I plant it I tear away whatever parts of the towel don't have the tap or tertiary roots growing in it and plant the rest towel and all. I use the shittiest paper towel I can find that break down easily once water hits them. Am I still losing some of the ROS?

Possibly, but most paper is made white thru bleaching, and that bleach is a sterilizer by design, so you are adding a sterilizer to microbes, and a sterilizers job is to kill microbes. So... But if you grow with synthetics then don't worry about it. It's more an organic thing.

What does "ROS" mean?

ROS is "reactive oxygen species". Free radicals. Unstable molecules. They are everywhere and particularly abundant in soil as they are created by microbes. Microbe poop.

Any time you see ROS, which is usually used by an article that is purposely not being fully disclosing, or doesn't really want you to know ie: trying to influence, substitute the word microbes, as microbes create ROS.

I would imagine that most of the seeds that you buy from breeders could be classified as "young" or not completely ripened going by your explanation. As you mentioned, this would mean that Ethelyne exposure would probably help in most cases unless the breeder had let the plant go to full maturity as in let the seeds drop from the plant rather than hand harvesting them.

Quite often yes. Really, the poorer the viable seed, the bigger difference ethylene has a chance to make. Old seeds can be somewhat rejuvinated.

I know that seeds in general have microbes both in and outside the seed hull. Does handling them remove some of these microbes?

It certainly can yes. It's more the hormones on your skin that can affect them tho.

Should they have as little handling to preserve those microbes? Maybe use tweezers to move them around?

It can't hurt.

I know that one of the ways that seeds get distributed is through animals eating them and then pooping them out at a different location. How does this affect the ROS?

That I'm not sure but animals poop on the ground all the time and microbes eat it and the seed is there too, so it's all part of natures way. I do know that lots of seeds use the enzymes in animal intestinal tracts to trigger the ethylene process as they are about to get pooped out in a pile of fertilizer that will attract beneficial microbes, so they need to be ready.

If you google "the effects of ethylene on seeds" there is a lot of science on it. That article is a regurgitation of science that has been around for a really long time. Its cool stuff tho. You can read for days on it literally. More importantly google "how do plants (or seeds) create ethylene". Then you will see how timings are imperitive.

 

[JiggiLotus]

Only issue is I need to make more to get preemie seeds so that will be focus right away to get indoor make going and create some.

Why do you want 'preemie' seeds for?
Do you eat em?

 

[budnoob3]

Grove bags acquired

 

[budnoob3]

Why do you want 'preemie' seeds for?
Do you eat em?

We only eat preemie humans around these parts

 

[Gee64]

Grove bags acquired

Sweet! I would love to know how well they work on organic weed

 

[Trump]

hehe nice try.

Possibly, but most paper is made white thru bleaching, and that bleach is a sterilizer by design, so you are adding a sterilizer to microbes, and a sterilizers job is to kill microbes. So... But if you grow with synthetics then don't worry about it. It's more an organic thing.

ROS is "reactive oxygen species". Free radicals. Unstable molecules. They are everywhere and particularly abundant in soil as they are created by microbes. Microbe poop.

Any time you see ROS, which is usually used by an article that is purposely not being fully disclosing, or doesn't really want you to know ie: trying to influence, substitute the word microbes, as microbes create ROS.

Quite often yes. Really, the poorer the viable seed, the bigger difference ethylene has a chance to make. Old seeds can be somewhat rejuvinated.

It certainly can yes. It's more the hormones on your skin that can affect them tho.

It can't hurt.

That I'm not sure but animals poop on the ground all the time and microbes eat it and the seed is there too, so it's all part of natures way. I do know that lots of seeds use the enzymes in animal intestinal tracts to trigger the ethylene process as they are about to get pooped out in a pile of fertilizer that will attract beneficial microbes, so they need to be ready.

If you google "the effects of ethylene on seeds" there is a lot of science on it. That article is a regurgitation of science that has been around for a really long time. Its cool stuff tho. You can read for days on it literally. More importantly google "how do plants (or seeds) create ethylene". Then you will see how timings are imperitive.

Love it! I was serious about understanding your background. Not to pick at you but to understand where your knowledge comes from. There are some books I want to read. I think the authors name is Lowenfell but I want to read them thoroughly as I only got a quick moment to thumb through the books and what I was able to read was very interesting about microbes and all and how they affect and work within the whole system.

 

[Gee64]

Love it! I was serious about understanding your background. Not to pick at you but to understand where your knowledge comes from. There are some books I want to read. I think the authors name is Lowenfell but I want to read them thoroughly as I only got a quick moment to thumb through the books and what I was able to read was very interesting about microbes and all and how they affect and work within the whole system.

Jeff Lowenfels has a bunch of good books. If you really want to know whats going on in soil they are all great reads.

His Teaming series is fantastic. It's pretty deep stuff but he makes it understandable, just have a nice quiet place to read it, it's a lot to wrap your head around, but for how deep he takes you he makes it very understandable. Go slow and digest what he tells you until it sinks in.

I believe Teaming With Microbes, then Teaming with Nutrients, then Teaming with Fungii, and finally Teaming with Bacteria, is the order to read them in if I recall. Check the copyright dates and read them in order if you can.

They are all available as e-books too if you like digital readers, and quite possibly as audio books, but it's pretty deep for audio, as there are many parts you will re-read and rereference to later on, so being able to bookmark the areas that you need to go back to during future grows or other reads is priceless.

If you are really serious about soil it's probably the best place to start.

Then when you read other material that isn't as explanatory you will be able to determine the shit from the shinola.

What you WILL find is that there are a few authors that generally agree on it all, but they also argue and conflict each other, and if you read Jeffs stuff first you will see that the arguements mostly arise because of application differences, so seeing that you can decide which application route works for you. Tilling, no tilling, that sort of thing.

Be warned tho lol, soil may sound boring, but it's likely the biggest rabbit hole you will ever go down. It's a gateway rabbit hole to a world of rabbit holes, and once your in and read a few others works it doesn't take long to realise that what makes healthy soil also makes healthy people, and a lot of what you believe to be correct right now will become wrong, and that has real implications in how you view the world, and the damage we have done to it, and how it ties to our health, which will lead to both anger and despair, but eventually freedom when you realize you can escape it all simply by growing your own food at a really high level and being responsible for your own health to avoid the system.

Soil biology and human biology are intimitely tied thru plants, and a lot of microbial stuff and nutrient balance that applies to soil applies to us too.

If you chase brix in soil, and I recommend you do, it doesn't take long to realise you can "raise human brix" too, for lack of a better way to say it.

Finally you will come to the same conclusion as Bud has said all along, our Grandparents and those before us did everything correctly, yet now we don't. What happened, and you will likely feel the need to help others find what you did.

Once you see it, it's hard to not want to share it.

Advice: after learning it don't be hard on synthetic growers, just show them a way out when they get to a place on their own, and ask you for guidance. Also have a couple years to dedicate to it. If you apply it all to growing weed 1st, that will keep you interested and soon it will spill out into your yard and your life.

We really are what we eat, and soil is where our health really begins.

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