How not to be a salt farmer or a wasteful grower tips

[budnoob3]

I've watched many comparison grows using extreme defoliation as a technique and can confirm that, done right, it can certainly increase dry yields. Why would this be if the Ferrari got a Toyota engine swapped into it, to use your analogy? Mostly because the processes that happen are much more complicated than most of us understand. The study I linked in the previous post is a good example of this. What seems like a common sense thing many times is counter to what we think is happening.

I understand your explanations and how you could come to those conclusions. I am guilty of the same things.

I've been cultivating cannabis for over 30 years, started in the early 90's, both personally and on a commercial level. I had the luxury of having testing facilities at my disposal along with getting to watch comparisons live. I still get surprised by things that I was taught early on that are not true and things I observed and came to conclusions on that I learned later were completely wrong. In my early days of cultivation all of my knowledge was based on hippy grower knowledge that was passed to me. When cultivation became legal I got to work in more controlled environments with degreed professionals that I could tap into so my cultivation knowledge base consists of anectdotal knowledge culled from years of observation and scientific knowledge.

What I've learned comparing both is that my early knowledge was based on the same principles you use to gather your conclusions. Some of that early knowledge was refuted early on pretty easily once I was in a more science based environment. Some of it proved to be accurate. Almost all the science based information proved to be true hence why I rely more on scientific information rather than anectdotal observations. Can science be wrong? Certainly. Scientific hypotheses are refuted every day but the percentage right from wrong in science is markedly less than in anectdotal observations.

Everyone should do what they think is right when growing but try and back up those observations with scientific information to confirm what you think you are seeing. Not only will you be surprised at how assumption can be a dangerous thing but how quickly your grow skills will improve after you've cleared away the inconsistencies you are using as fact.

One thing I forgot to mention, my observations and findings in many regards are based on my RSO/CCO production. When I ran tests like these I didn’t base quality on subjective opinion. I always created the CCO using the same amount of bud weight from each clone and compared my concentrate weights as a basis for my findings. For example, if I got 28 g from 4z on one but 36 from the other plants 4z it was pretty convincing to me. I’d love to hear what the scientific explanation is for what you’ve seen, guess I should start with your link… thanks

 

[Trump]

You will never see a gardener defoliating their tomato plants, etc, you’d be hard pressed to find one that could keep a straight face if asked why they’re not defoliating their fruit/vegetable plants.

BTW....I looked into your claim about gardeners not defoliating their tomato plants.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/362164627_Defoliation_impacts_on_morpho-physiological_attributes_and_yield_of_tomato_Defoliation_effect_on_yield_in_tomato#:~:text=Interestingly%2C%20photosynthesis%2C%20nitrate%20reductase%20and%20reproductive%20efficiency%20increased,defoliated%20plant%2C%20which%20resulting%20the%20highest%20fruit%20yield.

Interestingly, after reading this study, particular forms of defoliation DO increase yields. What hurt production was heavy defoliation so, as you can see, defoliation performance is more contextual than we think. To make general statements about any one technique as being bad or good needs to have context behind it just like when we do side by sides.

I've watched plants get schwazzed(heavily defoliated) and go on to produce massive yields. I've watched the same technique used and watched the plant stumble in and out of stress. What was the difference? Initial plant health. The high producer was at peak health when the technique was applied and was able to take advantage of the high stress it was put through. The other was in good health but not great. The lesson to be learned here is the initial findings would suggest that for schwazzing to be successful you first need to have the plants to be schwazzed at peak health. Context.

 

[budnoob3]

In that sense to be the devils advocate I’d argue that my policy would have do no harm applies to the vast majority of growers, especially new growers. Why promote something that is most likely to do more harm than good for non expert growers. That’s what I find so irksome truth be told…

 

[Trump]

In that sense to be the devils advocate I’d argue that my policy would have do no harm applies to the vast majority of growers, especially new growers. Why promote something that is most likely to do more harm than good for non expert growers. That’s what I find so irksome truth be told…

I agree. Which is why context is even more important for newbs. They need to understand the nuances of what they are doing rather than just mimicing what others are doing hoping to get the same results.

I see this as going along with the saying "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime".

Maybe it's just how my mind works but I need to know the why to how things work. I guess I'm a raving narcissist/control freak in wanting to understand how things work so that I can adopt or at least modify whatever technique I am trying to master.

When I first started growing my own I also failed miserably in the dry and cure portion of the grow. I just didn't understand why the flowers had to be dried so slowly. I decided to look to other industries with similar processes to see how they did it and why. I learned a lot from learning how the Germans dry and cure their hops for beer along with how the Cubans like to dry their tobacco leaves and why they both use those methods. Gave me a lot of great cues in regard to different scenarios and adjusting to them.

 

[budnoob3]

I’ve never claimed to be a master, a scientist, or any desire to outdo anyone. One of the reasons I chose to feature this grow particularly is because it’s a strain/cultivar I’ve never grown before and I wanted to showcase a simple method that has worked for me for many years for many things in my garden areas. And to help show new folks it can be done successfully year after year no matter what the plant assuming you adjust ratios accordingly. I wanted to start this season with no journals to reference etc to prove to myself more than anything I’ll still get a good harvest using grandpas methods amended with 420 knowledge gathered over the years and to help others see you don’t need a science degree or thousands of dollars in free cash to achieve it.

 

[Trump]

I’ve never claimed to be a master, a scientist, or any desire to outdo anyone. One of the reasons I chose to feature this grow particularly is because it’s a strain/cultivar I’ve never grown before and I wanted to showcase a simple method that has worked for me for many years for many things in my garden areas. And to help show new folks it can be done successfully year after year no matter what the plant assuming you adjust ratios accordingly. I wanted to start this season with no journals to reference etc to prove to myself more than anything I’ll still get a good harvest using grandpas methods amended with 420 knowledge gathered over the years and to help others see you don’t need a science degree or thousands of dollars in free cash to achieve it.

I applaud your effort. I understand your dealing more in generalities.

I'd just like to see more back up to the why's of what you do. You can say I dumped a bunch of food scraps into a hole, covered them with whatever dirt I found and planted my plant on top of it. 6 months later you'll show a large tree with a bounty of flowers and you'll attribute it to your method. Was it because of what you did or could it be that the time you planted it was more conducive to an outdoor grow? Genetics?

Where I live, from June to September, the temperature in my area rarely dips below 100°. If I used the method you or anyone else outlined as a great way to do it my plants wouldn't survive or would be seriously stunted not making it really worth it.

I want you to understand that my critiques aren't personal. I really like what you are attempting to do but if you're going to disseminate information you really need to be able to, again, explain the whys and not just the hows.

I'll shut up now and let you resume your tutorial. Sorry for the hijack.

 

[Trump]

 

[Chrondocious]

I've watched many comparison grows using extreme defoliation as a technique and can confirm that, done right, it can certainly increase dry yields. Why would this be if the Ferrari got a Toyota engine swapped into it, to use your analogy? Mostly because the processes that happen are much more complicated than most of us understand. The study I linked in the previous post is a good example of this. What seems like a common sense thing many times is counter to what we think is happening.

I understand your explanations and how you could come to those conclusions. I am guilty of the same things.

I've been cultivating cannabis for over 30 years, started in the early 90's, both personally and on a commercial level. I had the luxury of having testing facilities at my disposal along with getting to watch comparisons live. I still get surprised by things that I was taught early on that are not true and things I observed and came to conclusions on that I learned later were completely wrong. In my early days of cultivation all of my knowledge was based on hippy grower knowledge that was passed to me. When cultivation became legal I got to work in more controlled environments with degreed professionals that I could tap into so my cultivation knowledge base consists of anectdotal knowledge culled from years of observation and scientific knowledge.

What I've learned comparing both is that my early knowledge was based on the same principles you use to gather your conclusions. Some of that early knowledge was refuted early on pretty easily once I was in a more science based environment. Some of it proved to be accurate. Almost all the science based information proved to be true hence why I rely more on scientific information rather than anectdotal observations. Can science be wrong? Certainly. Scientific hypotheses are refuted every day but the percentage right from wrong in science is markedly less than in anectdotal observations.

Everyone should do what they think is right when growing but try and back up those observations with scientific information to confirm what you think you are seeing. Not only will you be surprised at how assumption can be a dangerous thing but how quickly your grow skills will improve after you've cleared away the inconsistencies you are using as fact.

2jz will blow the doors off any Ferrari.

 

[budnoob3]

Been busy helping son paint the exterior of his 3 family, at least 3 sides of it for now. We’re putting a 12’ x 25’ addition on the back for the 2nd and 3rd floor since it’s built on a hill and back of 1st floor is under ground. He only has 1br for each floor and a ridiculously small bathroom on 3rd so we’ll be adding a 2nd bedroom with walk-in closets + updating the bathrooms. Then we will either be painting that exterior with matching clapboard or as closely matching siding as can be found. If you notice I’m not updating as frequently, that is why

 

[Bill284]

Been busy helping son paint the exterior of his 3 family, at least 3 sides of it for now. We’re putting a 12’ x 25’ addition on the back for the 2nd and 3rd floor since it’s built on a hill and back of 1st floor is under ground. He only has 1br for each floor and a ridiculously small bathroom on 3rd so we’ll be adding a 2nd bedroom with walk-in closets + updating the bathrooms. Then we will either be painting that exterior with matching clapboard or as closely matching siding as can be found. If you notice I’m not updating as frequently, that is why

Hope it goes well my friend
I have a little project for you here when your done
No rush.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[budnoob3]

The bean bonanza surprise plants started 7/2 we’re looking hungry a few days back too so they got a feeding as well and looking pretty happy today

 

[budnoob3]

As for momma and her clones, we’re still not 100% sure what strain/cultivar they are yet but have some suspicions based on my buddy’s seed inventory and leaning towards a 50/50 strain he has that I personally haven’t grown before but he has. In the interest of promoting my guessing the strain game, I will now tell you we know for sure it’s not what he intended to give me which was Tora Bora so you can avoid that in your guesses. I can also tell you it’s not Kosher Kush nor Blue Dream, my two staples that are always going in my other garden areas indoor and out. That’s for momma and clones. For the bean bonanza guessing game I cannot say yet what they are or are not - so far I’m guessing not BD for any but that’s as far as I’ll go for now….. happy guessing if so inclined, maybe 420 will help me sponsor a giveaway for the first correct guess for each. I’d be happy to send some gifts to them for distribution so as to avoid any privacy concerns cheers

 

[budnoob3]

You can also rule out landrace strains, I know neither of us have any of those seeds…

 

[budnoob3]

My proposal for a guessing game with gifts would be to allow 1 guess per week which should include the plant you’re guessing for (labeled pics will be added to ease identification) and what your guess is. I’d keep track of all the guesses and timestamps in a spreadsheet and once we’ve identified 100% I’d go back and find the first correct guess based on the timestamp. There is the potential for 4 correct guesses or a minimum of 2 if all the bean bonanzas turned out to be the same. I’d be willing to pony up $100 in gifts for each 1st correct guess and would be happy to take suggestions what those gifts should be. If you know the staff well and could forward my idea along I’d greatly appreciate it

 

[budnoob3]

Grove bags ordered, hopefully it makes life as easy as I think it will I still have a bunch of 58 and 62 humidipaks and mason jars which will be relegated to longer term and backup use in my mason jars if all goes well.

 

[budnoob3]

I hope this statement is true but would like a better estimate than many years

The only properties that begin to degrade over time are the UV protectant and anti-static feature. Other TerpLoc features, like durability, humidity control, and odor control never diminish. As long as you cure in a dark room, the bags should work well for many years.

 

[budnoob3]

Now that we’re starting to talk about drying and curing I’ll mention my methods. But first, I have grown in CT, MN, NC and FL with the majority of the experience coming from CT and MN. So I do have some experience with the nuances of doing this stuff in different zones and climates. For me, when possible, I like to dedicate a spare room with a large closet for drying. In CT and MN it’s fairly easy for me to maintain around 70-72F temp and around 50% humidity year round without changing much, whereas FL and NC I needed both AC and dehumidifiers to achieve the ideal drying climate even in dry season. The important points are temp and humidity. My typical strains are usually ready for cure in 1 to 1 1/2 weeks under these conditions but that doesn’t really matter, no matter what the strain you don’t want to start curing until the branches/stems snap when bent vs bending still. Therefore around day 4 of drying I start doing the snap test and continue testing daily until ready. Then I begin cure which up to this point consisted of mason jars about 75 and no more than 80% full without any humidipacks or anything. Then I’d start burping and gently shaking 3 times a day at least for week 1, 2 times a day for week 2, 1 time a day for week 3, and then just periodically for week 4. Then I just let them be until week 6 or 7 before adding the humidipaks. I used 62 primarily and more recently added 58s to a subset of jars for a little less sticky buds for smoking. Now that I have grove bags on way I will be able to skip all the burping and not require humidipaks, but I always maintain a special reserve for long term so I will definitely transition anything that’s been curing more than 8 weeks back to mason jars with the 58s for special reserve - main cola material primarily. About 1/3 of ea plant is saved for smoking, 2/3rds of premium bud for concentrate and the remainder for some edibles for the wife and friends plus the compost and worm bins. I’m not big on edibles because of sugar content but I still enjoy a PB rice crisp treat on occasion that reminds me, ate one before a trip to SF, CA once and had to be woken to get off plane - all I remember hearing was, Sir, sir - everyone has deplaned - time to go! And as I’m coming to all I could think about was tattoo from that show love boat! But wait, doh, isn’t that show fantasy island, so baked in confusing myself right now!

 

[budnoob3]

Oh yeah, and if I did have to add anything in CT or MN it was humidity in winter months but didn’t need anything fancy, a vicks vaporizer without any Vicks always did the trick or even just a few bowls with water in the closet.

 

[budnoob3]

As for how I came upon my methods, the same buddy that mentored and guided me through scrog shared the most with me about drying and curing back in the day. He is the main reason I started the special reserve habit. He always had plants at least as big as @Bill284 and an inventory of at least 6 lbs on hand at all times. So it was easy for him to maintain special reserves at all times, he had stuff going back at least 5 years in special reserves that he only pulled out for very special occasions that he stored in smaller containers; don’t remember exactly what but they were slightly bigger than a baby food jar. The longest I’ve lasted so far is 2 years but based upon his testimonials I’m still committed to reaching the 5 year mark god willing

 

[budnoob3]

A little more talk about bugs and undesirable critters since it’s been coming up so frequently. I can share my honest perspective from my experience and what I’ve seen or witnessed so please don’t take as gospel truth. I know for a fact and seen others that have been way more successful than I at managing this issue. What I do consider truth based on my experience and what I’ve seen is that people can come very close to eliminating pest problems by at least 80%. I personally have never reached that goal, if I’m being optimistic I’d say I’ve reached at most the 65-70% level. The other truths for me are that the healthier the plant is or the higher the brix level the lower the pest problem becomes. This actually became evident to me when I was doing high brix testing. The highest I ever achieved turns out to be 22 on the refractometer and not coincidentally the period based on notes where I did the least pest management ever in my gardening journals. Problem is I only knew what directions told me to do with no real clue about ratio of contents in anything I was using. The best I’ve ever seen out of my methods was an 18 back in MN after trying to amend old knowledge with some new without leveraging a kit. I lost refractometer on move to NC and hadn’t used since but assumed I was doing ok based upon my subjective opinion of plants appearance and health over the years since. Now, a little while back I ordered a replacement and discovered I was in the sub 12 brix range which is just below where it’s supposed to be for pest management. At least recent readings have been in the 12-13 range which is good but not optimal. Hence I’m still and almost always have been doing the neem and SNS treatments. You’ll hear things like bugs hate sugar so as long as your above 12 the bugs will completely go away, or the bugs will move on to less healthy plants and so on. I do agree there’s some truth there, but I have never reached that utopian goal with kits or otherwise. I know I can get there one day if it’s possible, and even better I know we can get there all together much sooner if we all work on it together as a team! I have no desire to reverse engineer or steal someone’s recipe so I propose we figure it out together as a team