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- #201
High Pressure Aeroponics
- Thread starter PetFlora
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- #202
Quick Update: Lonely Lady is not quite finished, but close. In addition to the main cola there are half dozen lower branch buds that are now golf ball size and still growing. Also, I decided to spray her in the mornings with plain RO water. Seems like this resulted in significant pistil development.
New Grow: Maybe 2 weeks ago I raised the height of the mist heads near the top (to better mist the long roots), and put the lava rock under the grate.
Yesterday, It occurred to me that the plants 'should' be better off if I raised the grate, so I put 3 large drink cups under it, thus moving the long roots very close the mist heads. I think this will do a better job of misting them and make it easier for them to deliver the nutes to the plants.
The inside of the pod is quite warm, so I upped the amount of Zone as pr DM instructions. The lava may be part of the problem; will remove it this morning.
hth
New Grow: Maybe 2 weeks ago I raised the height of the mist heads near the top (to better mist the long roots), and put the lava rock under the grate.
Yesterday, It occurred to me that the plants 'should' be better off if I raised the grate, so I put 3 large drink cups under it, thus moving the long roots very close the mist heads. I think this will do a better job of misting them and make it easier for them to deliver the nutes to the plants.
The inside of the pod is quite warm, so I upped the amount of Zone as pr DM instructions. The lava may be part of the problem; will remove it this morning.
hth
So I just want to start off by telling you that you have inspired me. I have been looking and trying to plan my first grow. Ive always known Ive wanted to do a Cab and Scrog but could never figure out how i wanted to grow. So HPA it is. I will be using 2 5gal Lowes buckets stacked to give a tall root zone. (what do you think about this.) I will also get the Reptile basic Kit with the upgraded pump. More nozzles to accommodate 4 sets of buckets. My screen will be a 3x4 under a 600w hps. A few questions if you dont mind.
1) What should the RH be in the root chamber?
2)DTW for floweing but how many times can you recirculate the nutes for veg?
3)How many mist heads do you think will be needed for the 5 Gal bucket stack idea?
4) Would it be ok if i went from a LPA Cloner/veg to flowering in the HPA System? (Wouldn't be able to convince the wife to let me get two pumps.)
Thank you for posting all your successes as well as you failures.
1) What should the RH be in the root chamber?
2)DTW for floweing but how many times can you recirculate the nutes for veg?
3)How many mist heads do you think will be needed for the 5 Gal bucket stack idea?
4) Would it be ok if i went from a LPA Cloner/veg to flowering in the HPA System? (Wouldn't be able to convince the wife to let me get two pumps.)
Thank you for posting all your successes as well as you failures.
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- #204
nachoman: Good vibes. Let me answer your questions by saying as long as you are in the ball park you should have excellent results.
Buckets will work fine as long as you are not growing 3ft+ plants. The main concern being the air space around the root mass. You need sufficient room for the atomized mist to swirl around. The size of roots depends on the size plant you are growing.
Reptile Basics Mist heads/nozzles/fittings/tubing are great, but your timer should be capable of one second on times. In a pod as volumetrically small as stacked buckets, even 0.3 seconds using single mist heads could be way too long.
D2W Plants in early veg don't consume much of the nutes. Keep in mind you will only use ~ 200 ppms to a max of 400 ppms in full veg, so nutrient cost is very low; the safest thing to do is D2W everything.
3 X 4 Table Are you SOGing, growing full size plants, or...? I would say a max of 6 cola type plants or 3 bushes, try to stagger the rows for best mist flow
RH Very few of us have climate controlled rooms. DM Zone will allow for a broad range of RH. It's hot here and the RH/heat inside my pod is high. In addition to increasing the amount of Zone, I took some PVC (gathering dust from my spray bar days) and made a periscope (heat vent) - basically the tube with an elbow so light doesn't penetrate into the pod. I aimed the elbow away from the circulating fan; between heat rising and fan blowing past it, I expect RH to improve. (edit 4:56: it has! now a comfy 50% where it had been averaging 79- 80 with lights on.
Mist Heads I think one per stacked bucket. Position it about 1/3 from the top. I saw a photo where someone had like 3-4 rows of bucket; all his tubing was on top, with 2 mist heads on each lid. This looked like great KISS HPA set up. Stacking buckets would 'elevate' it to the next level.
Are you going with an accumulator, or using my system?
Post pics!
hth
Buckets will work fine as long as you are not growing 3ft+ plants. The main concern being the air space around the root mass. You need sufficient room for the atomized mist to swirl around. The size of roots depends on the size plant you are growing.
Reptile Basics Mist heads/nozzles/fittings/tubing are great, but your timer should be capable of one second on times. In a pod as volumetrically small as stacked buckets, even 0.3 seconds using single mist heads could be way too long.
D2W Plants in early veg don't consume much of the nutes. Keep in mind you will only use ~ 200 ppms to a max of 400 ppms in full veg, so nutrient cost is very low; the safest thing to do is D2W everything.
3 X 4 Table Are you SOGing, growing full size plants, or...? I would say a max of 6 cola type plants or 3 bushes, try to stagger the rows for best mist flow
RH Very few of us have climate controlled rooms. DM Zone will allow for a broad range of RH. It's hot here and the RH/heat inside my pod is high. In addition to increasing the amount of Zone, I took some PVC (gathering dust from my spray bar days) and made a periscope (heat vent) - basically the tube with an elbow so light doesn't penetrate into the pod. I aimed the elbow away from the circulating fan; between heat rising and fan blowing past it, I expect RH to improve. (edit 4:56: it has! now a comfy 50% where it had been averaging 79- 80 with lights on.
Mist Heads I think one per stacked bucket. Position it about 1/3 from the top. I saw a photo where someone had like 3-4 rows of bucket; all his tubing was on top, with 2 mist heads on each lid. This looked like great KISS HPA set up. Stacking buckets would 'elevate' it to the next level.
Are you going with an accumulator, or using my system?
Post pics!
hth
Im doing a 3x4 Scrog and will consist of 4 sets of stacked 5gal buckets. The Rez will be on the outside of the Cab to keep temps down. I will also be using your system and not an accumulator due to the fact that I will be running at most 8 mist heads. Im still in the planning stages and want everything to be perfect before I start. So a few more questions:
1) is an airstone inside of the rez necessary?
2) Can I clone/Veg in a LP Aero and Flower in the HPA system?
1) is an airstone inside of the rez necessary?
2) Can I clone/Veg in a LP Aero and Flower in the HPA system?
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- #207
Day/Night Feeding If you can remember, you can either reduce on time or increase dry cycle. due to issues like high RH I was running 2 second wet cycles under lights; one second when off. It was so hot/humid in the pod all my root hairs died. Now that I resolved RH, this morning I left wet cycle at one second and will monitor for new root hairs.
Since you will be running a minimum of 4 mist heads off one pump you 'may' be fine with a longer wet cycle (~ 4 seconds) but if you use dual heads then ~ 2 seconds. The key is to monitor your roots. This is where posting pics of all my mistakes comes in handy. You should be able to eliminate or at lest minimize mine.
hth
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- #209
You're welcome. After 4 grows I have learned a ton about hydro growing in general, and 'HPA" in particular. Although I use a high pressure pump, in the strictest sense my system is not True-HPA because without a holding tank (accumulator) my pressure drops as soon as the pump shuts off.
THPA provides full pressure instantly, which is critical to fully saturating a large pod in less than one second. And since my tubing is ~ 3ft from pump to head, somewhere around half way through the first second on, sufficient pressure is presented.
My single 30G pod presents less of a w/d timing issue than you will have running 4 pails (4-8 heads) and probably 10-12' of tubing off one pump. I hope your lids are easily opened as you will spend most of your time observing what's going on under the hood.
hth
THPA provides full pressure instantly, which is critical to fully saturating a large pod in less than one second. And since my tubing is ~ 3ft from pump to head, somewhere around half way through the first second on, sufficient pressure is presented.
My single 30G pod presents less of a w/d timing issue than you will have running 4 pails (4-8 heads) and probably 10-12' of tubing off one pump. I hope your lids are easily opened as you will spend most of your time observing what's going on under the hood.
hth
misterterious
New Member
Good to be following you in this forum petflora, i have been trying to gather all i can to develop my interests. One question is that i'm finding different on/off times in every thread. Is their an established timing for each phase of development. I'm thinking .5 to 1 second on with up to 5 seconds to 3 minutes off. What have you settled down to. Thank you for all your good thoughts. M_T
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- #211
I wish there was a formula, but it seems there are so many variables to consider, like the smaller the pod the shorter the wet cycles, flow rate of the mist heads, psi at the heads as soon as the pump comes on.
Basically, you want to maintain a slight dampness- neither too wet nor too dry, as either prevents root hairs. Temp and RH probably factor in as well.
The farther the pump is from the head the longer pressure takes to build up, one reason for having an accumulator, but even then long tubing necessitates having solenoids just before the heads to maintain adequate line pressure...
I imagine the number of plants (root masses) per pod factor in as well. Clearly THPA is more complicated for commercial growers.
Now that I have most of the essential parameters dialed in, I should have no problem growing 4 cola type females, each roughly 2.5ft tall in one 30G Rubbermaid tote under one ~400 watt Quantum Bad Boy (2 X 4).
Each plant should yield 2-3 ounces dry weight. I can easily add a second tote off one pump, but would need another light, and a much bigger habit. lol
hth
Basically, you want to maintain a slight dampness- neither too wet nor too dry, as either prevents root hairs. Temp and RH probably factor in as well.
The farther the pump is from the head the longer pressure takes to build up, one reason for having an accumulator, but even then long tubing necessitates having solenoids just before the heads to maintain adequate line pressure...
I imagine the number of plants (root masses) per pod factor in as well. Clearly THPA is more complicated for commercial growers.
Now that I have most of the essential parameters dialed in, I should have no problem growing 4 cola type females, each roughly 2.5ft tall in one 30G Rubbermaid tote under one ~400 watt Quantum Bad Boy (2 X 4).
Each plant should yield 2-3 ounces dry weight. I can easily add a second tote off one pump, but would need another light, and a much bigger habit. lol
hth
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- #214
Lonely Girl Update: Cut off the light yesterday and cut back 50% on wet cycle frequency: will keep her in dark until this evening when she comes down. I am amazed how much she PHATened up under a UFO 90.
Plus I was stressing knowing I had no other timer than an IGE with a minimum 30 second on cycle. Her roots did not grow much in spite of this. That said do not do this in veg, as the primary roots grew like crazy with 30 second feed cycles
Current Grow Update:
The biggest plant (BC Mango) is rockin, close to volley ball size. I pinched it about a week ago.
The 3 Bubblegum X Lowryder Xs had stalled due to high pod humidity which killed the root hairs. I figured out how to get rid of the high pod humidity with a simple pvc vent. Since installing, RH has dropped 20+ points and the AFs are growing nicely again.
Note that I put an elbow on the vent to prevent light getting into the pod. Also my circulating fan which is out of the picture, is on the right side of the vent, which helps draw hot air out.
The other 3 are AFs, from which 9-10 seeds has not been stable. Lonely Girl is from those seeds, and has taken 5 months to grow and 6 weeks to finish.
It's already hot here, jugs of frozen water not lasting very long. 4 weeks from now puts me into mid-May; 6 weeks June, so I decided to sacrifice total yield to prevent dealing with heat related issues. I cut back light three days ago to 13/11, tomorrow 12/12 to harvest, somewhere around mid-late May
Plus I was stressing knowing I had no other timer than an IGE with a minimum 30 second on cycle. Her roots did not grow much in spite of this. That said do not do this in veg, as the primary roots grew like crazy with 30 second feed cycles
Current Grow Update:
The biggest plant (BC Mango) is rockin, close to volley ball size. I pinched it about a week ago.
The 3 Bubblegum X Lowryder Xs had stalled due to high pod humidity which killed the root hairs. I figured out how to get rid of the high pod humidity with a simple pvc vent. Since installing, RH has dropped 20+ points and the AFs are growing nicely again.
Note that I put an elbow on the vent to prevent light getting into the pod. Also my circulating fan which is out of the picture, is on the right side of the vent, which helps draw hot air out.
The other 3 are AFs, from which 9-10 seeds has not been stable. Lonely Girl is from those seeds, and has taken 5 months to grow and 6 weeks to finish.
It's already hot here, jugs of frozen water not lasting very long. 4 weeks from now puts me into mid-May; 6 weeks June, so I decided to sacrifice total yield to prevent dealing with heat related issues. I cut back light three days ago to 13/11, tomorrow 12/12 to harvest, somewhere around mid-late May
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- #215
I use 1/4". It's easy to work with and I intuit that the smaller diameter helps pressure build faster
hth
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- #216
Pulled Lonely Girl this morning, unlike bldg 7, she had to come down
Privately purchased Lowryder X Bubblegum seeds. Germed in early November. Had to force flowering. Unstable genetics.-only one of 10 seeds sexed in 3 weeks- a male that hermied.
LG was on the small side height-wise at 14”s BUT she has a PHAT bottom
Entire plant is loaded with thick gooey buds.
Yielded 100 gms wet, including 3” of main stem (~6gms)
Dry weight should come in at <half
Leaving me with ~ 2.5 ozs of primo dank
If one were to buy this this locally, it would easily run $350/ and probably $400
Things I learned from this, my 4th TAG grow:
1. NUTES: Keeping low PPMS is beneficial when deep cycle feeding: Max veg 450, Max flwr 650. DM Gold nutes rock- no clogging, no pH swings
2. ROOTS: You want a timer accurate to at least one second intervals; +/- 5 seconds can allow or prevent root hair development, which are the Mother Lode of efficiency.
3. POD SIZE is critical for proper mist circulation. 30G is proving excellent for up to 4 plants
4. POD HUMIDITY about 2 weeks ago (long before normal) temperature began hitting high 80s.
Inside the pod RH was high 80s-low 90s (pre heat vent). Just noticed 3 have balls developing, probably caused by 5 -7 days of high RH inside the pod. Anybody want to swap my BC Mango pollen for some seeds? Prefer AF type for quick harvest: Max height 30”
5. WET/DRY CYCLES I was forced to use 30 second wet cycles which created the baseball bat roots seen in the current grow root shots (see previous post), where softball shaped are much more effective when atomizing nutes.
hth
Don't go away I am half way home on the current grow, which is in this thread.
Privately purchased Lowryder X Bubblegum seeds. Germed in early November. Had to force flowering. Unstable genetics.-only one of 10 seeds sexed in 3 weeks- a male that hermied.
LG was on the small side height-wise at 14”s BUT she has a PHAT bottom
Entire plant is loaded with thick gooey buds.
Yielded 100 gms wet, including 3” of main stem (~6gms)
Dry weight should come in at <half
Leaving me with ~ 2.5 ozs of primo dank
If one were to buy this this locally, it would easily run $350/ and probably $400
Things I learned from this, my 4th TAG grow:
1. NUTES: Keeping low PPMS is beneficial when deep cycle feeding: Max veg 450, Max flwr 650. DM Gold nutes rock- no clogging, no pH swings
2. ROOTS: You want a timer accurate to at least one second intervals; +/- 5 seconds can allow or prevent root hair development, which are the Mother Lode of efficiency.
3. POD SIZE is critical for proper mist circulation. 30G is proving excellent for up to 4 plants
4. POD HUMIDITY about 2 weeks ago (long before normal) temperature began hitting high 80s.
Inside the pod RH was high 80s-low 90s (pre heat vent). Just noticed 3 have balls developing, probably caused by 5 -7 days of high RH inside the pod. Anybody want to swap my BC Mango pollen for some seeds? Prefer AF type for quick harvest: Max height 30”
5. WET/DRY CYCLES I was forced to use 30 second wet cycles which created the baseball bat roots seen in the current grow root shots (see previous post), where softball shaped are much more effective when atomizing nutes.
hth
Don't go away I am half way home on the current grow, which is in this thread.
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- #218
Very good question. I have wondered myself. It's probably somewhere in my notes. Hopefully someone will provide the 411
A current grow observation: Since resolving the RH problem...
the good news- my plants have almost doubled in height;
the bad news- the high RH caused all 4 to hermie.
They are in mid flower; just checked pH this morning and it is 6.2
hth
A current grow observation: Since resolving the RH problem...
the good news- my plants have almost doubled in height;
the bad news- the high RH caused all 4 to hermie.
They are in mid flower; just checked pH this morning and it is 6.2
hth
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- #220
but what are the percentages of those seeds being female? Anyway, I will get better smoke than if they were males