Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

WOW the HGL side is going to be more then double the weight... Yeah it's a bad day for the HSS side...

This is by far the best side by side LED grow I've seen to date...

The Sun has now set on this grow.. Great job :bongrip:
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

:goodjob: Sun:welldone: and :thankyou: for showing us the vast difference between these two brands of LED. I think HGL LEDs are probably comparable to equal watt CFL's at best but certainly not HID's as once claimed by the makers. Good if you've got heat issues I guess but still way too expensive IMO. Whatcha doin for your next grow mate???:thumb::peace:
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

So the HGL light produced more bud while using less power. I'd say thats a win for the 1w led's. SS, you did say that they didn't feel wet, does that mean you'd classifly these buds as dense?

I would call this a very successful experiment. What are you gonna do next?
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Many thanks for everything you did that is a benefit for so many growers.

Kidding aside. Any thoughts on putting together a 'panel' of 420magazine moderators to sample the produce and offer a smoke report? Probably have to make a week long event in order to 'cleanse the palate' between samples.

Also, I think someone could put together a narrated slide show excerpted from this thread. I hear Tommy Chong is looking for work.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

HGL smoked the $hit out of the HSS light. great job bro.:thumb:

These are wet weights recorded immediately after trimming, so using 25% of wet weight as an estimate of final dry weight, that would wind up somewhere around 33.25g from the HSS tent, and 78.25g from the HGL tent.


hey irish if this holds up, I should start reading palms....I guess my telepathy was being kind to the HSS light.....:yahoo:

Great job SS...guess after all the trimmimg your glad you were not comparing HID grows...LOL
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wow, not looking good for my favorite HSS, I know from using the HSS lights that you could have grown 2 or 3 more plants in that tent of yours with very little loss of yield per plant. I'm pulling off 1g/w with HSS and I'm not the best grower by far, so I know it's doable.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

hey irish if this holds up, I should start reading palms....I guess my telepathy was being kind to the HSS light.....:yahoo:

Great job SS...guess after all the trimmimg your glad you were not comparing HID grows...LOL

Actually, that wasn't much trimming at all for all the buds combined. To Bad really.:smokin2:
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wow! Those numbers really do tell the tale. Given the exquisite job of growing and getting to them of course.

:thankyou::welldone::thumb::goodjob:

It will be super interesting to see what the dried weights are so we get the g/w - but judging from those numbers the HGL is about exactly what I would demand from ANY grow light and the HSS folks need to rethink their product.

The upfront cost is pretty steep on the LEDs, and it would certainly take multiple grows to recoup the difference in efficiency, but I can see where a single patient could make the LED work. They would have to smoke less than I do. And it clearly becomes more efficient over time. I guess that begs the question - will there be another technology with similar or better results that arrives before you recoup the LEDs?

Also, I think - but i don't want to put words in anyone's mouth - it seems the consensus here is that the LEDs work well for a small grow, but I don't see anyone trying to pretend that a few hundred watts of LEDs is equivalent to a 1K or 2x600s - let alone trying to grow a dispensary under them.

Thanks again SS! I really can't say enough how well done I think this journal has been. If these manufacturers had done a grow like this themselves, and documented it as well as you have - LEDs would have had a much better reputation out the gate. I really think the manufacturers shot themselves in the foot. Seems they are good at math and wiring and nanometers, but perhaps lack the years of growing experience necessary to attempt to simulate mother nature.

:thankyou::welldone:

:peacetwo:
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, Great job I am a newbie and have really learned a lot. Thanks again.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

:thankyou: Setting Sun for the patience and virtue you have shown in this grow journal. Wow, I might actually have to reconsider LED's. Supplemented with maybe 150watts of CFL's or a 150 HPS...you could for very little power grow some serious plants with height control, put both on a small mover in my closet...maybe ideal. :smokin2:Will be thinkin.

Thank you so much for showing us both companies products, I hope HSS rethinks their design (put a mover in it too, :ganjamon:) to be more competitive, because you can tell by the hit count, peeps were watchin...


I vote Setting Sun for Staff of the Month, but you all deserve an applause. :bravo: From this Mountain man. :rasta:.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wow, not looking good for my favorite HSS, I know from using the HSS lights that you could have grown 2 or 3 more plants in that tent of yours with very little loss of yield per plant. I'm pulling off 1g/w with HSS and I'm not the best grower by far, so I know it's doable.

Your grow is a perfect example of what works best with these lights, but no offense sf but 90w lights get you 90w buds!:peacetwo:
Some folks need more meds for a 3 month period.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I would like to see the LED vendors advertise their products honestly.

HGL says: "Our 126W Penetrator Full Spectrum LED Grow Light, provides results equivalent or better than a 250W HID!"

If I'm not mistaken, not long ago they said it was on par with a 400 watt HID.

HSS says: "Growing with LEDs is differnent then growing with HPS and may require a few changes to your process, but in terms of yield per watt, our lights will provide 2 to 3 times the performance of HPS."

If I'm not mistaken, until recently they claimed their light was the equivalent of a 600 watt HPS.

Again, I'm not breaking the rules by posting this info....I merely followed the links provided on the very first post of this journal. These are the exact words of the manufacturers of these lights.

This grow, in my opinion, has accomplished one very important thing: It has forced these companies to make more realistic claims about their products. Seriously, as recently as 2 weeks ago, their websites made wild claims about their lights.

SS has showed us what these lights can do. Sure, with LST and other canopy control methods the overall yield can go up. There is no doubt about that. However, in terms of total yield, watt for watt they appear to be about as efficient as an HPS.

They will last longer, and create less heat.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

That's what we can call Going Green.

Love it SS.

Thank you so much my friend.

-Go
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Wow, not looking good for my favorite HSS, I know from using the HSS lights that you could have grown 2 or 3 more plants in that tent of yours with very little loss of yield per plant. I'm pulling off 1g/w with HSS and I'm not the best grower by far, so I know it's doable.

As was pointed out - yours is one of the few that I consider a successful LED grow. So please, sf, don't think I'm picking on you. Quite the contrary. Gonna use your numbers because I respect them.

The rest of this post is not directed to sf, but to everyone. I think what's got me concerned are the two things Doc and ledtester pointed out. So I'm gonna do a little math using basic circumstances. And I'll use sf's numbers for comparison. A little bigger. A 6 plant medical grow. (No offense, sf, but what you smoke in a month would last me about a week). We'll assume the medium, pots, and nutes and all other costs not related to the lights are the same:

This is from the HGL site, describing the 126 Penetrator:

Maximum Coverage Area of 24" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 18" x 30"

I have a couple of different ways to light that area - that's even a little smaller than my smallest, but pretty damn close - but for flowering, for a very good yield one could use a 600HPS. A ducted 600 + a fan would be about the cost of the one 126 Penetrator. Which sells for $475 from their site. So that seems to me to be a fair starting point for a comparison.

Then we have all the things we all know about that makes the LED more efficient over time - lower electricity for the lamp, lower heat, less AC, etc... all that equates to : the electricity bills would be much lower for the LED setup. For me I would likely save about $50 a month. And every Year you'd have to spend $ on another bulb for HID theoretically.

BUT at the end of 8 weeks at even just .5 g/w the HID will deliver at least 300g dried almost guaranteed. And that is a VERY conservative grow. If SS did it he would get 450+ from that area almost guaranteed. McBudz is getting a POUND a month from two 6x6 areas.

6 harvests a year (1 every 8 weeks perpetual) = 1800g/yr

Now lets use $15/g as a number for a value for that smoke. If I had to go to a dispensary and buy it. Again - conservative I believe for good smoke.

Using our conservative .5 g/w: 1800g x $15 = $27K worth of meds. / yr.

Factor in the cost of the replacement bulb: $100
And the difference in the electricity / month: 12 x $50 = $600

Value of HID Meds $26,300

Now we do the same with the LEDs:

Using sfhaze's numbers of a solid 1.0 g/w. If someone can show me higher we'll use that. But I'm using a best-case scenario for the LEDs and an avg for the HIDs so seems fair.

Using that 126 Penetrator that equates to 126g of meds per grow in the same area.

6 Grows/ Yr = 6 x 126g = 1008g of Meds/yr = $15,120

We don't subtract anything cause the LEDs are more efficient.

Value of LED Meds: $15,120

$26,300
- $15,120
----------
$11,180 More meds from the HID.

And this is assuming that the site is not over hyping the square footage coverable by the LED light. A 600 could actually easily cover more than that area, I leave it to you led folks to let us know whether you think their 126 really could cover 2'x3' well.

So, as far as I'm concerned, as far as g/w - in order for the LED to really provide the same amount of meds for the same price - it would need to be slamming out a CONSISTENT 2g/w AT LEAST! If you matched best case scenario against best case - the LED would need to crank out over 3g/w to compete.



SS - I hope you don't mind my putting all this stuff about HIDs in your beautiful thread. I guess I have just sorta written off the final conclusion as far as a comparison of HSS vs HGL this time around. There's really no doubt about which light performed better. So I was trying to extrapolate from your very well documented numbers and grow to a broader comparison. As I am going to be spending some serious $ on new lights in the near future, and I'm such the technogeek - I have really been hoping that LEDs would be my answer. Your grow has really helped me nail down the numbers for myself as well as I could possibly have hoped without actually having the LEDs to test.

:peacetwo:

EDIT: I was just re-reading their site - and they compare their 345 to a 600 in terms of watts but the growing area is only 30"x30". I guess because of their flat design it gets funky figuring out optimal # of plants. So running those numbers they come out about the same as a 600HPS (again assuming you use .5 for HPS and 1.0 for LED ) but the cost of the initial light offsets any power savings or bulb the first year.

The numbers on their site simply don't make sense.

126 : Maximum Coverage Area of 24" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 18" x 30"
345: Maximum Coverage Area of 36" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 30" x 30"

almost 3x the wattage and only 30% more sf

Its like they decided what the numbers needed to be, then used those numbers for advertising.
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

As was pointed out - yours is one of the few that I consider a successful LED grow. So please, sf, don't think I'm picking on you. Quite the contrary. Gonna use your numbers because I respect them.

The rest of this post is not directed to sf, but to everyone. I think what's got me concerned are the two things Doc and ledtester pointed out. So I'm gonna do a little math using basic circumstances. And I'll use sf's numbers for comparison. A little bigger. A 6 plant medical grow. (No offense, sf, but what you smoke in a month would last me about a week). We'll assume the medium, pots, and nutes and all other costs not related to the lights are the same:

This is from the HGL site, describing the 126 Penetrator:

Maximum Coverage Area of 24" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 18" x 30"

I have a couple of different ways to light that area - that's even a little smaller than my smallest, but pretty damn close - but for flowering, for a very good yield one could use a 600HPS. A ducted 600 + a fan would be about the cost of the one 126 Penetrator. Which sells for $475 from their site. So that seems to me to be a fair starting point for a comparison.

Then we have all the things we all know about that makes the LED more efficient over time - lower electricity for the lamp, lower heat, less AC, etc... all that equates to : the electricity bills would be much lower for the LED setup. For me I would likely save about $50 a month. And every Year you'd have to spend $ on another bulb for HID theoretically.

BUT at the end of 8 weeks at even just .5 g/w the HID will deliver at least 300g dried almost guaranteed. And that is a VERY conservative grow. If SS did it he would get 450+ from that area almost guaranteed. McBudz is getting a POUND a month from two 6x6 areas.

6 harvests a year (1 every 8 weeks perpetual) = 1800g/yr

Now lets use $15/g as a number for a value for that smoke. If I had to go to a dispensary and buy it. Again - conservative I believe for good smoke.

Using our conservative .5 g/w: 1800g x $15 = $27K worth of meds. / yr.

Factor in the cost of the replacement bulb: $100
And the difference in the electricity / month: 12 x $50 = $600

Value of HID Meds $26,300

Now we do the same with the LEDs:

Using sfhaze's numbers of a solid 1.0 g/w. If someone can show me higher we'll use that. But I'm using a best-case scenario for the LEDs and an avg for the HIDs so seems fair.

Using that 126 Penetrator that equates to 126g of meds per grow in the same area.

6 Grows/ Yr = 6 x 126g = 1008g of Meds/yr = $15,120

We don't subtract anything cause the LEDs are more efficient.

Value of LED Meds: $15,120

$26,300
- $15,120
----------
$11,180 More meds from the HID.

And this is assuming that the site is not over hyping the square footage coverable by the LED light. A 600 could actually easily cover more than that area, I leave it to you led folks to let us know whether you think their 126 really could cover 2'x3' well.

So, as far as I'm concerned, as far as g/w - in order for the LED to really provide the same amount of meds for the same price - it would need to be slamming out a CONSISTENT 2g/w AT LEAST! If you matched best case scenario against best case - the LED would need to crank out over 3g/w to compete.



SS - I hope you don't mind my putting all this stuff about HIDs in your beautiful thread. I guess I have just sorta written off the final conclusion as far as a comparison of HSS vs HGL this time around. There's really no doubt about which light performed better. So I was trying to extrapolate from your very well documented numbers and grow to a broader comparison. As I am going to be spending some serious $ on new lights in the near future, and I'm such the technogeek - I have really been hoping that LEDs would be my answer. Your grow has really helped me nail down the numbers for myself as well as I could possibly have hoped without actually having the LEDs to test.

:peacetwo:

EDIT: I was just re-reading their site - and they compare their 345 to a 600 in terms of watts but the growing area is only 30"x30". I guess because of their flat design it gets funky figuring out optimal # of plants. So running those numbers they come out about the same as a 600HPS (again assuming you use .5 for HPS and 1.0 for LED ) but the cost of the initial light offsets any power savings or bulb the first year.

The numbers on their site simply don't make sense.

126 : Maximum Coverage Area of 24" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 18" x 30"
345: Maximum Coverage Area of 36" x 36" @ 12" above your canopy, with a Recommended Lighting Area of 30" x 30"

almost 3x the wattage and only 30% more sf

Its like they decided what the numbers needed to be, then used those numbers for advertising.

Lots of calculations, lots of mind changing, lots of fudjing by manuf. My friend told me he was specifically told that 3 panels would replace 1000w HID by the manuf. When we got the lights and set them up he mentioned how he wished he ordered 4 panels. Now the manuf. tells people it;s best to use four panels but the truth is it takes 6 panel to cover a 4 x4 table effectively. But at 756w and $3000 it still would have fell short in our comparison by 250 grams. LED's have their purpose of growing in small confined places. Here's my biggest beef with this whole situation ...being a medical legal grower with so many other things in life to take care of I much prefer having to deal with growing my meds for 3 months out of the year then having the constant worry and work of my grow 365 days a year. So late summer I get my 15 clones and by Christmas I have my meds for the year. I'm always under my limit and no worries for 9 months out of the year. It would cost me $5000 just for the lights and never mind all the extra work to change over to LED's. In sf's case when he's pulling 1gr/w, raise your hand if an oz / month will do you! Now will the bigger panels like the one irishboy is using pull off a gr/watt we'll have to see but my gut says no. And I say that not because of irish's ability but because my personal belief after doing a grow is that side reflection is very important with LED's or any lighting. Irish I believe is growing in a tent with at least a foot of space from the walls and light. Ok with a HID, not so good with these LED's. My opinion is this factor will drop his harvest by 30% to around .7gr/watt. And that's if this light is as good as it has been so far.JMHO
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

SS, I never thought it would end, and know you're glad it's over !! Ha !! You did a fair comparison, and no one could have did it more fair. And now you can tell me how much the two culled plants, produced under the 150 hps. My guess is those two plants probably produced more than either of the leds , with 4 plants ?? Looking forward to whatever you do next. +reps to you, if i can !!
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

The weights speak for themselves. Assuming 75% weight loss that equates to .62g per watt for HGL and .175g per watt for HSS.

.175 WTF have i done some really wacky maths or is this right????
If my maths are right the HGL results could be lived with because we know with lst or sog or scrog we could probably comfortably push it up and maybe achieve 1g per watt but could the HSS be pushed up that much.

Top job SS. Looking forward to smoke reports and final weights.

Not a good day for HSS imho.

I think your math is right... Looks like penetration and 660nm LEDs are key. With LST, CO2 and higher wattage, I think LEDs still have potential. Got to fix that footprint issue...
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

I think your math is right... Looks like penetration and 660nm LEDs are key. With LST, CO2 and higher wattage, I think LEDs still have potential. Got to fix that footprint issue...

IJHO its a big issue and I've racked my brains coming up with a solution with my limited knowledge of LED's. One easy one of course is the diodes being more spread out in bigger panels but I couldn't imagine the weight with the heatsinks and all. You would have to be calling your neighbours to help you move the lights. You think they can be water cooled in some way? They have water cooled processors why not LED's?
 
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - Haight Solid State vs. Hydro Grow LED

Harvest is done ;).


HPIM20722.JPG



These are wet weights recorded immediately after trimming, so using 25% of wet weight as an estimate of final dry weight, that would wind up somewhere around 33.25g from the HSS tent, and 78.25g from the HGL tent. They didn't feel very "wet" though, and may not lose 75%, but we'll soon know.

I'll be back after I get some rest ;).

:thankyou: :thumb:

Nice haul bro. . . I'm not surprised the HGL did better, it looked that way towards the end, but I take SF's comments to heart too, these lights have completely different distributions, and the parameters of the grow may have skewed the results in favor of one light over the other. under no constraints, the results may have been completely different.

I wish we could see a round 2 including that 150w hps, with no constraints whatsoever. or maybe add some small supplemental cfl's to each LED room. . . i think there might be great untapped potential in some sort of hybrid system to get the best of all worlds: The highly focused but discrete spectrum of LED along with the highly efficient continuous spectrum of CFL to "fill in the gaps" so to speak.

Wet weights are wet weights. . . 75% is a good way to guesstimate, but I'll reserve calculations until the dry wt's are in. ;)

still, that HGL might out-do my wheel this time. :surrender::surrender::surrender: ugh.

i still love the tric shots the most bro, will it work on dried buds too? i wanna see that!

Love'n the dry racks too, so easy right?

overall you did an outstanding job.. . . of course as always, the truth will be in the smoke report. after all, that's the point right??
 
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