- Thread starter
- #21
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 20 above ground.
If these plants were any happier they'd have to get a room.
If these plants were any happier they'd have to get a room.
Gorilla Glue Gets Going
- Thread starter Delps8
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 23 above ground!
In the life of an autoflower the 5 days since my last posting is a long time. I didn't realize how much they had changed - wow!
Wilma has always been behind Chris and I narrowed it down to being 4 days behind but she's healthy as can be.
Weather and Tent Weather
Both have been superb for the past week. Today saw temps of 97 and tomorrow will be 90'ish, compliments of the Santa Ana winds that blow through SoCal. Not to worry, just another day and then back to 60's and 70's.
Between the Pulse and Wetbird, I've been able to keep VPD on target for a very high percentage (90+) of the time. No doubt a grow room would be easier but, this part of the year seems to be ideal for my grow environment.
Having said that, EC is unchanged at 1.04 (520 PPM) and pH has changed between 5.8 and 5.9 about every other day. I do swear that if the pH levels for this grow stay that well controlled, I will build a small, tasteful, shrine to the company. Yeh, that falling pH stuff was just awful. At least with the Jack's, I've got some control over what's going in the tank. Not to knock Botanicare but, as much as I liked the convenience, there just wasn't any reason for me to keep using their nutes.
Both grown had grown to the point where they needed to be topped. Chris was already past the 5th node but Wilma had just sprouted the inner growth so I topped them both. I checked the plants this AM and they're doing great.
There was one "issue". I wasn't paying attention and, over the course of a day or maybe two, the plants grew enough to start to get light burn. In the attached pictures, you'll see one leaf turned sideways to the light and then there are two photos of the leaf gradually turning back after the light level was reduced. Each picture is about 25 minutes apart.
I'm really lucky I didn't cause any damage (that I know of). I raised the light and adjusted the dimmer to get the same PPFD. The new hang height is "safer". With the Mars and the Puck running 18/6, the plants are at a DLI of 25.
Careful, lots of pictures.
In the life of an autoflower the 5 days since my last posting is a long time. I didn't realize how much they had changed - wow!
Wilma has always been behind Chris and I narrowed it down to being 4 days behind but she's healthy as can be.
Weather and Tent Weather
Both have been superb for the past week. Today saw temps of 97 and tomorrow will be 90'ish, compliments of the Santa Ana winds that blow through SoCal. Not to worry, just another day and then back to 60's and 70's.
Between the Pulse and Wetbird, I've been able to keep VPD on target for a very high percentage (90+) of the time. No doubt a grow room would be easier but, this part of the year seems to be ideal for my grow environment.
Having said that, EC is unchanged at 1.04 (520 PPM) and pH has changed between 5.8 and 5.9 about every other day. I do swear that if the pH levels for this grow stay that well controlled, I will build a small, tasteful, shrine to the company. Yeh, that falling pH stuff was just awful. At least with the Jack's, I've got some control over what's going in the tank. Not to knock Botanicare but, as much as I liked the convenience, there just wasn't any reason for me to keep using their nutes.
Both grown had grown to the point where they needed to be topped. Chris was already past the 5th node but Wilma had just sprouted the inner growth so I topped them both. I checked the plants this AM and they're doing great.
There was one "issue". I wasn't paying attention and, over the course of a day or maybe two, the plants grew enough to start to get light burn. In the attached pictures, you'll see one leaf turned sideways to the light and then there are two photos of the leaf gradually turning back after the light level was reduced. Each picture is about 25 minutes apart.
I'm really lucky I didn't cause any damage (that I know of). I raised the light and adjusted the dimmer to get the same PPFD. The new hang height is "safer". With the Mars and the Puck running 18/6, the plants are at a DLI of 25.
Careful, lots of pictures.
- Thread starter
- #23
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 29 above ground.
Last posting was day 23. There's been a whole lotta growing goin' on since then and, I'm happy to say that the res has been very stable.
The res is 16 days old and I will swap it over the weekend. I didn't check the water level this morning but, as of yesterday, the plants had taken up just over a gallon, out of a 28 gallon res. pH has dropped from 5.8 to 5.7 twice and PPM has very gradually dropped from 520 to 500 and is now showing 490. All good signs.
The only issue that I see is that Wilma is definitely light green whereas Chris is a medium green. This res was came in at EC 1.04 (520 PPM) and I want to bump that up to EC 1.2 for this next res. If the leaves stay light green at 1.2, I'll tweak the mixture a bit by adding some CalNit. Thanks to some tutelage from @FelipeBlu I got some insight into how to manage nutrients and Jacks 3-2-1 recipe couldn't be easier.
One note - I bought a 10kg back of 5-12-26 in December for $70. The same bag is now $121. That scares the shit out of me. When I moved to the US in 1979, the country was going through the same issues that we're seeing now and it took years for the economy to recover. As much as I don't want to think that we're facing that problem again, the realist in me understands that "wishin' don't make it so", ie. we're screwed. And, on that pleasant note…
Tent weather has been really good. The temp drops to about 65 overnight and then gradually climbs to the high 70's just after lunch and stays there till lights out. My preference would be for a steady daytime temp of 78° so, with cooler weather in the forecast, I'm going to get the little heater back in the tent and keep the kids warm.
Plants are looking really good. Wilma, four days behind Chris developmentally, got her first bit of LST today. I did some CST on Chris and moved the weights further out her branches. Chris is 6" tall but she's 15" across and 15" front to back.
I've been using the blue LED puck for a few weeks and it's taken a bit to find the right way to "hang" it. I used a tripod at first but that was too cumbersome. Next up was a gooseneck phone holder held on to the light by a clip mechanism with the LED held in a set of curved jaws that normally holds the phone. The big push for blue is in veg to keep plants "compact" and, yes, that they are. Is there any reason to have blue light in flower? AFAIK, there isn't but it's worth poking around to confirm.
Light levels - Wilma is at 32 moles, Chris 38. I was going to go with 34 and 40. Wilma's leaves are out flat but Chris' leaves were drooping so I called it at 2200. 38 moles is good light for a 29 day old auto.
Strange to think of it but these plants will start to show pre-flowers in the new couple of weeks.
Nothing much to show yet but what's a journal entry without pictures?
And one thing that I finally figured out re. taking pictures. White balance is tough shooting under an LED and, in the past, I've spent some time color correcting these images. Some time last week, I decided to include the PulseOne in each shot. It's a non-shiny white color that I can use with the "curves" tool to set the while point for any picture. It's similar to using a "gray card" for color matching. Now, it takes a couple of clicks and everything looks good.
Last posting was day 23. There's been a whole lotta growing goin' on since then and, I'm happy to say that the res has been very stable.
The res is 16 days old and I will swap it over the weekend. I didn't check the water level this morning but, as of yesterday, the plants had taken up just over a gallon, out of a 28 gallon res. pH has dropped from 5.8 to 5.7 twice and PPM has very gradually dropped from 520 to 500 and is now showing 490. All good signs.
The only issue that I see is that Wilma is definitely light green whereas Chris is a medium green. This res was came in at EC 1.04 (520 PPM) and I want to bump that up to EC 1.2 for this next res. If the leaves stay light green at 1.2, I'll tweak the mixture a bit by adding some CalNit. Thanks to some tutelage from @FelipeBlu I got some insight into how to manage nutrients and Jacks 3-2-1 recipe couldn't be easier.
One note - I bought a 10kg back of 5-12-26 in December for $70. The same bag is now $121. That scares the shit out of me. When I moved to the US in 1979, the country was going through the same issues that we're seeing now and it took years for the economy to recover. As much as I don't want to think that we're facing that problem again, the realist in me understands that "wishin' don't make it so", ie. we're screwed. And, on that pleasant note…
Tent weather has been really good. The temp drops to about 65 overnight and then gradually climbs to the high 70's just after lunch and stays there till lights out. My preference would be for a steady daytime temp of 78° so, with cooler weather in the forecast, I'm going to get the little heater back in the tent and keep the kids warm.
Plants are looking really good. Wilma, four days behind Chris developmentally, got her first bit of LST today. I did some CST on Chris and moved the weights further out her branches. Chris is 6" tall but she's 15" across and 15" front to back.
I've been using the blue LED puck for a few weeks and it's taken a bit to find the right way to "hang" it. I used a tripod at first but that was too cumbersome. Next up was a gooseneck phone holder held on to the light by a clip mechanism with the LED held in a set of curved jaws that normally holds the phone. The big push for blue is in veg to keep plants "compact" and, yes, that they are. Is there any reason to have blue light in flower? AFAIK, there isn't but it's worth poking around to confirm.
Light levels - Wilma is at 32 moles, Chris 38. I was going to go with 34 and 40. Wilma's leaves are out flat but Chris' leaves were drooping so I called it at 2200. 38 moles is good light for a 29 day old auto.
Strange to think of it but these plants will start to show pre-flowers in the new couple of weeks.
Nothing much to show yet but what's a journal entry without pictures?
And one thing that I finally figured out re. taking pictures. White balance is tough shooting under an LED and, in the past, I've spent some time color correcting these images. Some time last week, I decided to include the PulseOne in each shot. It's a non-shiny white color that I can use with the "curves" tool to set the while point for any picture. It's similar to using a "gray card" for color matching. Now, it takes a couple of clicks and everything looks good.
- Thread starter
- #24
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 35 above ground.
Plants continue to do amazingly well. I've been ramping up the DLI and both plants are now vey close to 40 moles.
I did a res change over the weekend seeing that the previous res was 2 1/2 weeks old. I saw an EC drop last week so I upped the PPM to 630 and, within two days PPM was down to 600 (500 scale). The new res came in at 730 and, since Wilma had some light colored leaves, I decided to up the CalNit by 10%. The mix for this res is 3.79/2.77/0. I mixed the dry nutes but might make concentrated solutions before the next res.
Weather has been great with the majority of the temps being in the 60's and 70's. We did get a few of days of Santa Ana's, including one day that came really close to 100°, but that didn't impact the "tent weather". I've been able to maintain a VPD of 1.0 for a couple of weeks but, as of yesterday, that's changed due to the size of the plants. They're putting a lot of water into the air so I have to leave the tent open and/or run the fans.
Chris is taking up 1/2 the tent space so I'm going to let her go vertical now. I wanted to try to get the branches in the back of the plant to grow out a little more but I think it's better to try to keep an even canopy than to allow a few branches to grow an inch or two longer.
Wilma had light colored leaves for a bit. When I did the new res, the extra 10% of CalNit appears to have resulted in the leaves being darker. Overall, the Jack's has been amazingly stable. I look at pictures from the 30 - 35 day timeframe in my last grow and it was a mess back then. In 35 days of this grow, it's been nothing but smooth sailing.
What's up next?
I may do some defol to ensure good air flow and to help get RH in check. I don't like the idea of hacking off parts of a plant but I do need to get rid of some of the underbrush.
LST/CST has worked quite well. A few of the branches have 2 2oz weight on them and the canopy is very level. No sign of preflowers but that's coming up in the next week or so.
Plants continue to do amazingly well. I've been ramping up the DLI and both plants are now vey close to 40 moles.
I did a res change over the weekend seeing that the previous res was 2 1/2 weeks old. I saw an EC drop last week so I upped the PPM to 630 and, within two days PPM was down to 600 (500 scale). The new res came in at 730 and, since Wilma had some light colored leaves, I decided to up the CalNit by 10%. The mix for this res is 3.79/2.77/0. I mixed the dry nutes but might make concentrated solutions before the next res.
Weather has been great with the majority of the temps being in the 60's and 70's. We did get a few of days of Santa Ana's, including one day that came really close to 100°, but that didn't impact the "tent weather". I've been able to maintain a VPD of 1.0 for a couple of weeks but, as of yesterday, that's changed due to the size of the plants. They're putting a lot of water into the air so I have to leave the tent open and/or run the fans.
Chris is taking up 1/2 the tent space so I'm going to let her go vertical now. I wanted to try to get the branches in the back of the plant to grow out a little more but I think it's better to try to keep an even canopy than to allow a few branches to grow an inch or two longer.
Wilma had light colored leaves for a bit. When I did the new res, the extra 10% of CalNit appears to have resulted in the leaves being darker. Overall, the Jack's has been amazingly stable. I look at pictures from the 30 - 35 day timeframe in my last grow and it was a mess back then. In 35 days of this grow, it's been nothing but smooth sailing.
What's up next?
I may do some defol to ensure good air flow and to help get RH in check. I don't like the idea of hacking off parts of a plant but I do need to get rid of some of the underbrush.
LST/CST has worked quite well. A few of the branches have 2 2oz weight on them and the canopy is very level. No sign of preflowers but that's coming up in the next week or so.
- Thread starter
- #25
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 37. Not too much new to report. Everything's just rolling along.
Both plants are only 8" tall. Wilma is 18" X 18" and Chris is 24" x 24". It's a combination of just flattening the branches with fishing weights plus using the blue Puck. In any case, the picture below shows that "It's a shrubbery!"
Both plants are only 8" tall. Wilma is 18" X 18" and Chris is 24" x 24". It's a combination of just flattening the branches with fishing weights plus using the blue Puck. In any case, the picture below shows that "It's a shrubbery!"
- Thread starter
- #26
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 41 above ground.
Same old same old and zero complaints.
Swapped the res on Saturday. Res was at EC 1.46 so the new res went in at 1.66. EC started dropping within a few hours so I brought it down a bit to 1.56 and it's been happy ever since. In addition to upping Jack's Part B by 10% for this res, I added Botanicare RhizoBlast and PureBlend Tea, which were leftover from previous grows. I can't say they did anything, except that it took a few minutes longer to make the nutes. They'll be out in the trash in the next day or two, along with the other remnants from Botanicare.
I've been using the Royal Blue LED with the Mars and, while the plants are very compact, it's been a bit of a hassle to futz with the Puck. I do like it because it allows me to "spot fill" areas on the canopy. When I shut off the Mars and leave the Puck running, the blue light really stands out so that makes it easier to use.
My long terms solution is not the Mars + a Puck. I was able to pickup a ChilLED X2 veg light during their 420 sale for right at $400. This grow is in late flower so I'll be switching to the X3 pretty soon but at least I'll have the X2 for future grows.
And that means I have a Mars SP 3000 and the Puck for sale. They're both in excellent shape and, for the Mars, I've patched in a very long extension between the driver and the light. If anyone reading this is interested, please contact me off list to figure out pricing.
Wilma continues to lag behind Chris and it looks like that's the way it's going to be. She's not going to "catch up" as I'd hoped she would. Chris measures 26" x 26". Wilma is smaller, at 18" x 22".
The LST/CST has worked out really well - Chris is only 15" tall, Wilma is 13". There's lot of foliage in the center of Chris but, if you push the leaves aside, there's a 6" "hole" where you can see the main branches and the top of the res. The plants have a very uniform canopy.
I've had to adjust the nutes once and have had to add Up and Down a few times but, other than that, nothing but smooth sailing.
My thinking has been to hold off on removing "the underbrush" and, over the past few days, I've been starting to see what I suspected would happen. Now that the plants are starting to grow vertically, "underbrush" is becoming "brush" - everything is rising off of the res top as the plants move into flower. There are some very small leaves that are starting to fall off so I'll trim the little ones up but, other than that, I'm not too keen on removing foliage.
The Apogee has been put to good use but I've had to hold off a bit on light levels because Wilma just hasn't been up to the task. DLI's were in the high 30's and I've upped that to 42 and 43 over the past few days.
One question I've been pondering - when should I switch from my "veg" light (the Mars + the Puck) to my flower light? I can't find any research on that particular topic so I think it comes down to "whenever you feel like it". These plants are pretty damned compact so I think the blue photons have done their bit and it's time to box up the Mars and get the X3 cranked.
Oh, a new piece of equipment is the AC Infinity fan. I bought it because it's variable speed - a great feature. The fan does hook up the the controller (also new) that I have for the AC Infinity inline fan. However, the Infinity Controller 67 does not allow me to change fan speeds independently so I can't crank up the inline fan to dump RH unless I want to crank up the tent fan and blow the plants over. That was a bummer but, heh, first world problems. A couple of things that really are annoying is that the fan doesn't depress much below the horizontal and there's no friction setting to control the range of motion in the horizontal plane. It's nice to have adjustable fan speed but not being able to control its left and right orientation is a not insignificant oversight.
Not to short change Wilma, but Chris could be shaping up to be a beast of a plant. At 26" diameter, her canopy is 3.7 square feet or almost half of the 2' x 4' tent. That's what I was hoping to grow, no question, and it will be quite the something to see just how big she gets once she hits flower.
And, seeing this tent filling up, I'm really glad that I went with only two plants. It's much easier to deal with and I suspect that filling a tent "to the brim" is counterproductive.
As this grow hasn't required much care and feeding, I've spent time mulling over making my own res top. The current one has holes for 12 netpots which is far more than I need to grow two plants. Also, it's one large piece of plastic. Why not build my own res top, designed to my own needs? I'll refine that design over the next few months and build it in the Summer, when it's too hot to grow.
Same old same old and zero complaints.
Swapped the res on Saturday. Res was at EC 1.46 so the new res went in at 1.66. EC started dropping within a few hours so I brought it down a bit to 1.56 and it's been happy ever since. In addition to upping Jack's Part B by 10% for this res, I added Botanicare RhizoBlast and PureBlend Tea, which were leftover from previous grows. I can't say they did anything, except that it took a few minutes longer to make the nutes. They'll be out in the trash in the next day or two, along with the other remnants from Botanicare.
I've been using the Royal Blue LED with the Mars and, while the plants are very compact, it's been a bit of a hassle to futz with the Puck. I do like it because it allows me to "spot fill" areas on the canopy. When I shut off the Mars and leave the Puck running, the blue light really stands out so that makes it easier to use.
My long terms solution is not the Mars + a Puck. I was able to pickup a ChilLED X2 veg light during their 420 sale for right at $400. This grow is in late flower so I'll be switching to the X3 pretty soon but at least I'll have the X2 for future grows.
And that means I have a Mars SP 3000 and the Puck for sale. They're both in excellent shape and, for the Mars, I've patched in a very long extension between the driver and the light. If anyone reading this is interested, please contact me off list to figure out pricing.
Wilma continues to lag behind Chris and it looks like that's the way it's going to be. She's not going to "catch up" as I'd hoped she would. Chris measures 26" x 26". Wilma is smaller, at 18" x 22".
The LST/CST has worked out really well - Chris is only 15" tall, Wilma is 13". There's lot of foliage in the center of Chris but, if you push the leaves aside, there's a 6" "hole" where you can see the main branches and the top of the res. The plants have a very uniform canopy.
I've had to adjust the nutes once and have had to add Up and Down a few times but, other than that, nothing but smooth sailing.
My thinking has been to hold off on removing "the underbrush" and, over the past few days, I've been starting to see what I suspected would happen. Now that the plants are starting to grow vertically, "underbrush" is becoming "brush" - everything is rising off of the res top as the plants move into flower. There are some very small leaves that are starting to fall off so I'll trim the little ones up but, other than that, I'm not too keen on removing foliage.
The Apogee has been put to good use but I've had to hold off a bit on light levels because Wilma just hasn't been up to the task. DLI's were in the high 30's and I've upped that to 42 and 43 over the past few days.
One question I've been pondering - when should I switch from my "veg" light (the Mars + the Puck) to my flower light? I can't find any research on that particular topic so I think it comes down to "whenever you feel like it". These plants are pretty damned compact so I think the blue photons have done their bit and it's time to box up the Mars and get the X3 cranked.
Oh, a new piece of equipment is the AC Infinity fan. I bought it because it's variable speed - a great feature. The fan does hook up the the controller (also new) that I have for the AC Infinity inline fan. However, the Infinity Controller 67 does not allow me to change fan speeds independently so I can't crank up the inline fan to dump RH unless I want to crank up the tent fan and blow the plants over. That was a bummer but, heh, first world problems. A couple of things that really are annoying is that the fan doesn't depress much below the horizontal and there's no friction setting to control the range of motion in the horizontal plane. It's nice to have adjustable fan speed but not being able to control its left and right orientation is a not insignificant oversight.
Not to short change Wilma, but Chris could be shaping up to be a beast of a plant. At 26" diameter, her canopy is 3.7 square feet or almost half of the 2' x 4' tent. That's what I was hoping to grow, no question, and it will be quite the something to see just how big she gets once she hits flower.
And, seeing this tent filling up, I'm really glad that I went with only two plants. It's much easier to deal with and I suspect that filling a tent "to the brim" is counterproductive.
As this grow hasn't required much care and feeding, I've spent time mulling over making my own res top. The current one has holes for 12 netpots which is far more than I need to grow two plants. Also, it's one large piece of plastic. Why not build my own res top, designed to my own needs? I'll refine that design over the next few months and build it in the Summer, when it's too hot to grow.
- Thread starter
- #27
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 42 above ground.
One thing I didn't mention re. nutes. Wilma has light green leaves. It's exaggerated in the photos but it is something I need to resolve.
I've been pushing light levels, tempered by Wilma's leaf color but I don't think that's an issue. AS best I can tell, Wilma got 46 moles, Chris 43 yesterday. How did they react? They grew at least an inch overnight!
They are definitely starting to go vertical so I'll retire the Mars this weekend.
One thing I didn't mention re. nutes. Wilma has light green leaves. It's exaggerated in the photos but it is something I need to resolve.
I've been pushing light levels, tempered by Wilma's leaf color but I don't think that's an issue. AS best I can tell, Wilma got 46 moles, Chris 43 yesterday. How did they react? They grew at least an inch overnight!
They are definitely starting to go vertical so I'll retire the Mars this weekend.
- Thread starter
- #28
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 46 above ground and not a flower in sight.
Short posting today, with things to do in the tent and out in real life.
Seeking feedback on nutrient mix and strength so I'm going to tag @FelipeBlu and @Rexer for their wisdom. What concerns me is the color of Wilma's leaves. Her leaves have been light green since she was a seedling. I've attached quite a few pictures in hopes of showing a contrast between her color and the color of Chris' leaves.
Over the course of the grow, I've tried reducing light levels and have increased the amount of Jack's Part B (CalNit) by 10%, to no avail. Changing light levels was a few weeks ago when I inadvertently gave her 700 µmols for a good part of the day. I did see some light avoidance so I immediately lowered PPFD and called lights out an hour early. Her DLI was in the mid-30's at the time so 8 hours (±) of 700 could have been a bit much. There was no noticeable change in her color.
The other step I've taken is to increase the amount of Part B from 2.5 mg/gallon to 2.77 (10%). That change went into effect last weekend. I also added two of Botanicare's magic elixirs for that res. Again, no change in color.
TDS has dropped very slowly. It had dropped to 750 PPM* (500 scale) so I added nutes from the batch of 1100 PPM nutes that I make in a 4 gallon bucket each time I swap a res. That bumped TDS to 790 PPM and it's now down to 770 PPM. Despite the increase in N and Ca, no change in color. :-(
The plant does not display (any other) symptoms of nutrient deficiency. It might well be that this particular plant just has light green leaves. OTOH, could the light green leaves indicate a deficiency in N or some other nutrient?
I'd appreciate feedback on that.
In addition to a small drop in TDS, ph has been steady since forever but it did move from 5.8 to 5.9 this AM. That's a godsend and I'm very, very pleased that I got steered away from bottled nutes into the dry nutes camp, specifically Jack's. Thank you @FelipeBlu, tambien (or is it "encore une fois"?)
I called Jacks yesterday to get the skinny on how to mix a concentrated nute solution with 3-2-x and the answer was short and sweet mix up a batch of 100:1 and you're done. That works for me.
My question re. nutes - seeing that there's a slight drop in TDS, should I increase the strength of the new res from 800 to 900 or EC 2 and/or change the ratios in my current res which are Part A 3.79 and 2.77 Part B (that's 10% stronger than "stock") by adding another 10% of CalNit to try to get more N in the res or should I just do nothing?
*I use PPM instead of EC because my monitor reports only one decimal place so it doesn't display 790 PPM displays as the same EC as 770 PPM. It's possible that the fact that the instrument doesn't display at a more granular level is an indication that changes smaller than 0.1 do not make a difference. That thought did not escape me.
Wilma's leaves are not as light as this image displays on screen.
Wilma on the left, Chris on the right.
This is a pretty accurate rendition.
As is this.
As is this picture of the leaves on Chris.
Short posting today, with things to do in the tent and out in real life.
Seeking feedback on nutrient mix and strength so I'm going to tag @FelipeBlu and @Rexer for their wisdom. What concerns me is the color of Wilma's leaves. Her leaves have been light green since she was a seedling. I've attached quite a few pictures in hopes of showing a contrast between her color and the color of Chris' leaves.
Over the course of the grow, I've tried reducing light levels and have increased the amount of Jack's Part B (CalNit) by 10%, to no avail. Changing light levels was a few weeks ago when I inadvertently gave her 700 µmols for a good part of the day. I did see some light avoidance so I immediately lowered PPFD and called lights out an hour early. Her DLI was in the mid-30's at the time so 8 hours (±) of 700 could have been a bit much. There was no noticeable change in her color.
The other step I've taken is to increase the amount of Part B from 2.5 mg/gallon to 2.77 (10%). That change went into effect last weekend. I also added two of Botanicare's magic elixirs for that res. Again, no change in color.
TDS has dropped very slowly. It had dropped to 750 PPM* (500 scale) so I added nutes from the batch of 1100 PPM nutes that I make in a 4 gallon bucket each time I swap a res. That bumped TDS to 790 PPM and it's now down to 770 PPM. Despite the increase in N and Ca, no change in color. :-(
The plant does not display (any other) symptoms of nutrient deficiency. It might well be that this particular plant just has light green leaves. OTOH, could the light green leaves indicate a deficiency in N or some other nutrient?
I'd appreciate feedback on that.
In addition to a small drop in TDS, ph has been steady since forever but it did move from 5.8 to 5.9 this AM. That's a godsend and I'm very, very pleased that I got steered away from bottled nutes into the dry nutes camp, specifically Jack's. Thank you @FelipeBlu, tambien (or is it "encore une fois"?)
I called Jacks yesterday to get the skinny on how to mix a concentrated nute solution with 3-2-x and the answer was short and sweet mix up a batch of 100:1 and you're done. That works for me.
My question re. nutes - seeing that there's a slight drop in TDS, should I increase the strength of the new res from 800 to 900 or EC 2 and/or change the ratios in my current res which are Part A 3.79 and 2.77 Part B (that's 10% stronger than "stock") by adding another 10% of CalNit to try to get more N in the res or should I just do nothing?
*I use PPM instead of EC because my monitor reports only one decimal place so it doesn't display 790 PPM displays as the same EC as 770 PPM. It's possible that the fact that the instrument doesn't display at a more granular level is an indication that changes smaller than 0.1 do not make a difference. That thought did not escape me.
Wilma's leaves are not as light as this image displays on screen.
Wilma on the left, Chris on the right.
This is a pretty accurate rendition.
As is this.
As is this picture of the leaves on Chris.
She looks okay to me. Perhaps it’s just genetic variation.
You could try bumping Part B (CalNit) up to 3g/gal - but I wouldn’t go much higher.
You could try bumping Part B (CalNit) up to 3g/gal - but I wouldn’t go much higher.
- Thread starter
- #30
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Don't want to upset the ratios. That last grow was a less than pleasant experience.
Thank you for the advice.
- Thread starter
- #31
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 53 above ground.
Yikes, I didn't realize that I hadn't posted the results of the changed nute mix. As suggested, I changed the Jack's numbers of 3.79 gm/gallon Part A and 2.52 Part B gm/gallon to 3.79 and 3.02, the latter being a 20% bump.
After a week, I can't really tell that it made a difference in the coloration. Both plants are moving well into flower and they're changing very quickly now. When I did the res swap today, I reverted to the standard Jack's formula.
I can't imagine a grow going any more smoothly (given the tent location) than this has. One self inflicted wound where Wilma got 700µmoles of light for a good part of a day but, other than that, zero issue. The biggest win for me has been the EC and pH stability. Phenomenal. And I ascribe that to switching to Jack's 3-2-0.
Pictures attached. Plants growing very quickly now. Big change last week was to swap out the Mars in favor of the Growcraft X3. It took a bit of thinking about how to move the lights around but I was able to do the swap with less than 5 minutes of downtime. The X3 was hanging vertically in the back of the tent but it took a few minutes to figure out what to unhook and in what sequence. It worked out OK and the plants seem to be loving it. They've definitely growing very quickly and the X3 is giving pretty even light across the tent. I'm running at the same wattage as the Mars and the same hang height but am getting about 100 µmols more.
Some of the branches are outside the tent so, last night, I strung up parachute cord and hung the little Vipar Spectra XS-1500 over that front of the tent. I'll try to find something a little more robust than a piece of "string" but it's doing the job and only, what, eight weeks to go?
I bought an AC Infinity Controller 67 Bluetooth for their inline fan that I bought last year. Thanks to RTFM, I learned that that you can control two devices on that model but second device is not controlled separately. Rats. I knew that's coming up for a challenge dealing with humidity now that the plants are in flower, so picked up a second controller for the AC Infinity variable speed tent fan. That combo has proven to be very helpful in controlling RH. There are three fans in the tent and the inline fan runs at 2/10 all the time.
Infinity is coming out with a Controller 67 WiFi model that will allow each of four devices to be controlled independently. I lose connectivity at unusual times with the Bluetooth model so I'm looking forward to getting the WiFi version.
I've had to do some work LST'ing some of the stalks but a few have needed to be super cropped. It's amazing how resilient cannabis is.
At the bottom of the plants, I've cleared out some fans leaves and the spindly little stalks. Some of the fan leaves are starting to senesce. I will police those up and get rid of some more undergrowth tomorrow. These plants are just a mass of green.
Yikes, I didn't realize that I hadn't posted the results of the changed nute mix. As suggested, I changed the Jack's numbers of 3.79 gm/gallon Part A and 2.52 Part B gm/gallon to 3.79 and 3.02, the latter being a 20% bump.
After a week, I can't really tell that it made a difference in the coloration. Both plants are moving well into flower and they're changing very quickly now. When I did the res swap today, I reverted to the standard Jack's formula.
I can't imagine a grow going any more smoothly (given the tent location) than this has. One self inflicted wound where Wilma got 700µmoles of light for a good part of a day but, other than that, zero issue. The biggest win for me has been the EC and pH stability. Phenomenal. And I ascribe that to switching to Jack's 3-2-0.
Pictures attached. Plants growing very quickly now. Big change last week was to swap out the Mars in favor of the Growcraft X3. It took a bit of thinking about how to move the lights around but I was able to do the swap with less than 5 minutes of downtime. The X3 was hanging vertically in the back of the tent but it took a few minutes to figure out what to unhook and in what sequence. It worked out OK and the plants seem to be loving it. They've definitely growing very quickly and the X3 is giving pretty even light across the tent. I'm running at the same wattage as the Mars and the same hang height but am getting about 100 µmols more.
Some of the branches are outside the tent so, last night, I strung up parachute cord and hung the little Vipar Spectra XS-1500 over that front of the tent. I'll try to find something a little more robust than a piece of "string" but it's doing the job and only, what, eight weeks to go?
I bought an AC Infinity Controller 67 Bluetooth for their inline fan that I bought last year. Thanks to RTFM, I learned that that you can control two devices on that model but second device is not controlled separately. Rats. I knew that's coming up for a challenge dealing with humidity now that the plants are in flower, so picked up a second controller for the AC Infinity variable speed tent fan. That combo has proven to be very helpful in controlling RH. There are three fans in the tent and the inline fan runs at 2/10 all the time.
Infinity is coming out with a Controller 67 WiFi model that will allow each of four devices to be controlled independently. I lose connectivity at unusual times with the Bluetooth model so I'm looking forward to getting the WiFi version.
I've had to do some work LST'ing some of the stalks but a few have needed to be super cropped. It's amazing how resilient cannabis is.
At the bottom of the plants, I've cleared out some fans leaves and the spindly little stalks. Some of the fan leaves are starting to senesce. I will police those up and get rid of some more undergrowth tomorrow. These plants are just a mass of green.
- Thread starter
- #32
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 56 above ground.
Not much going on. Just steady growth, lots of buds open and maturing. There are a few orange pistils on Chris, none on Wilma yet.
Nutes are in the EC 1.9 region. I did a res change using Jack's Part A and Part B (Silica Blast first, Jack's stuff, and then HydroGuard). Wow, that's really nice. I have been using a scale to weigh out the dry nutes and, with only two items to weigh, it goes really quickly. I did mix a batch of "stock solution" (don't know if that's the right phrase) for Jack's and put them in the old (cleaned out) Botanicare nute bottles.
Thinking of which. I've got an unopened gallon jug of Botanicare CalMag. Hate to toss it out but whaddya do with nutes you that you'll never use?
The gallons of Jack's is good for 3 ½ res changes. For my next grow, which will be in Septemberish, I'm going to go to 3 gallon bottles which should take me through an entire grow.
pH is dropping slowly. When it falls to 5.7, I bump it to 6.0 and it takes a couple of days to get back to 5.8. So much more manageable than the goat rope that I went through for my previous grow.
Big news - found a third leaf that had damage from a drop of nute water. That's it — 56 days in the tent and nada. Not a damned thing gone wrong except three leaves that had a few drops of nutes on them.
I did some defol - cleaned out the under carriage and removed branches that would have produced larf. I read a comment by a commercial grower (don't know which forum it was) that their practice is to remove branches that are thinner than a pencil because branches of that size will not generate a salable product. Given the smaller size of my plants, I can't use the thickness of a pencil but I followed his advice and removed a few slender branches that were just growing into the canopy.
My "sidecar light" is working out well. The Viper Spectra is at 95 watts which is enough for 650± µmols. Speaking of light…
I'm using the sample function on the Apogee to take readings across the canopy. It's a very handy feature. Below are the PPFD's and their respective DLI values. I've gone back and forth on having values as high as 48. I want to increase yield but don't want to end up with fox tailed plants. If 45 mols is a good limit, 48 won't overwhelm them (famous last words!).
The X3 is at 14" above canopy, moved upward as the canopy grows.
Also on the topic of light - after unarchiving the tent last January, I fired up my Kind XL 600, followed the directions to the letter, and destroyed two sets of seeds. Having pissed away a few hundred dollars by doing so, I decided to do things a little differently. I tried using Photone to measure output and the readings just did not make sense. One of the many changes I made was to ditch the Kind, in favor of the Mars SP 3000, and I went with the Apogee instead of Photone.
One of the reasons why I didn't use Photone was that I couldn't calibrate it. Photone couldn't read the output from the Kind so I was betwixt and between. The vague instructions about what weight paper to use for the diffuser exacerbated the fact that you need a diffuser to get a reading. That's just not my way of doing things so I found an easy solution - throw out the Kind, get a modern light, and get a PAR meter. QED
Fast forward to recently and I decided to try Photone. Not sure why. I ended up testing Photone and the Apogee using the X3. Per the attachments, the Apogee and my iPhone were resting on piece of cardboard on a small footstool sitting on my garage floor. The X3 was 18" above the footstool so the sensors were 16" or so from the light. I took readings in increments of 25% power. The results weren't even close. I can't attach the spreadsheet so I've pasted the screenshot.
As I was taking the readings, I got a little frustrated. They were so far off that I bailed out on testing the Mars. It wasn't until I put the numbers in Excel that I saw that, even though the numbers were very different, they were amazingly consistent at 16% high for Photone.
When I emailed the programmer re. the discrepancy, he pointed out that it could be simply the inherent inaccuracies of the instruments. 5%± for the Apogee, 5%± for the iPhone, and you're almost there. I agree that's possible but that's a stretch. What is important is that Photone is always 16% higher than the Apogee. If the error is constant, I can calibrate it out.
Another issue is that I don't know how accurate the Apogee is. On their site, Apogee states that their sensor is calibrated to being 5%±. I called Apogee and explained the issue that I was dealing with. Noah, the customer service rep, knew Photone and was familiar with the consumer level products that are on the market. He was extremely helpful and he gave me the URL to part of the Apogee site that allows you to test your Apogee against a known good light source.
Check it out at this link.
The known good light source is the sun and, when you plug in the values, you get a PPFD that you can use to validate your meter. I tested my Apogee and found that it is reading 2.4% high.
One comment that Noah made about consumer PAR meters is that they tend to have a lot of variance from the Apogee products but they drift pretty quickly. One model, the Ambio-something that's on Amazon, not only varied both above and below their reference meter but, after the six months that they've had that meter, it has drifted by up to 10%.
I would love to be able to use my iPhone in lieu of my Apogee. There are times when all I want to do is take a quick reading in the tent but I've got to get the case out, extend the wand, take the reading, wrap up the cables, get thing put back in the case, etc., etc. Compare that to just launching an app on the iPhone and pressing a few buttons. Given that Photone is consistent, I might be able to calibrate it to match the Apogee. The X3 is in the tent now so I won't be able to test Photone against it until the current grow is harvested and then I'll see how thing pans out.
Not much going on. Just steady growth, lots of buds open and maturing. There are a few orange pistils on Chris, none on Wilma yet.
Nutes are in the EC 1.9 region. I did a res change using Jack's Part A and Part B (Silica Blast first, Jack's stuff, and then HydroGuard). Wow, that's really nice. I have been using a scale to weigh out the dry nutes and, with only two items to weigh, it goes really quickly. I did mix a batch of "stock solution" (don't know if that's the right phrase) for Jack's and put them in the old (cleaned out) Botanicare nute bottles.
Thinking of which. I've got an unopened gallon jug of Botanicare CalMag. Hate to toss it out but whaddya do with nutes you that you'll never use?
The gallons of Jack's is good for 3 ½ res changes. For my next grow, which will be in Septemberish, I'm going to go to 3 gallon bottles which should take me through an entire grow.
pH is dropping slowly. When it falls to 5.7, I bump it to 6.0 and it takes a couple of days to get back to 5.8. So much more manageable than the goat rope that I went through for my previous grow.
Big news - found a third leaf that had damage from a drop of nute water. That's it — 56 days in the tent and nada. Not a damned thing gone wrong except three leaves that had a few drops of nutes on them.
I did some defol - cleaned out the under carriage and removed branches that would have produced larf. I read a comment by a commercial grower (don't know which forum it was) that their practice is to remove branches that are thinner than a pencil because branches of that size will not generate a salable product. Given the smaller size of my plants, I can't use the thickness of a pencil but I followed his advice and removed a few slender branches that were just growing into the canopy.
My "sidecar light" is working out well. The Viper Spectra is at 95 watts which is enough for 650± µmols. Speaking of light…
I'm using the sample function on the Apogee to take readings across the canopy. It's a very handy feature. Below are the PPFD's and their respective DLI values. I've gone back and forth on having values as high as 48. I want to increase yield but don't want to end up with fox tailed plants. If 45 mols is a good limit, 48 won't overwhelm them (famous last words!).
The X3 is at 14" above canopy, moved upward as the canopy grows.
Also on the topic of light - after unarchiving the tent last January, I fired up my Kind XL 600, followed the directions to the letter, and destroyed two sets of seeds. Having pissed away a few hundred dollars by doing so, I decided to do things a little differently. I tried using Photone to measure output and the readings just did not make sense. One of the many changes I made was to ditch the Kind, in favor of the Mars SP 3000, and I went with the Apogee instead of Photone.
One of the reasons why I didn't use Photone was that I couldn't calibrate it. Photone couldn't read the output from the Kind so I was betwixt and between. The vague instructions about what weight paper to use for the diffuser exacerbated the fact that you need a diffuser to get a reading. That's just not my way of doing things so I found an easy solution - throw out the Kind, get a modern light, and get a PAR meter. QED
Fast forward to recently and I decided to try Photone. Not sure why. I ended up testing Photone and the Apogee using the X3. Per the attachments, the Apogee and my iPhone were resting on piece of cardboard on a small footstool sitting on my garage floor. The X3 was 18" above the footstool so the sensors were 16" or so from the light. I took readings in increments of 25% power. The results weren't even close. I can't attach the spreadsheet so I've pasted the screenshot.
As I was taking the readings, I got a little frustrated. They were so far off that I bailed out on testing the Mars. It wasn't until I put the numbers in Excel that I saw that, even though the numbers were very different, they were amazingly consistent at 16% high for Photone.
When I emailed the programmer re. the discrepancy, he pointed out that it could be simply the inherent inaccuracies of the instruments. 5%± for the Apogee, 5%± for the iPhone, and you're almost there. I agree that's possible but that's a stretch. What is important is that Photone is always 16% higher than the Apogee. If the error is constant, I can calibrate it out.
Another issue is that I don't know how accurate the Apogee is. On their site, Apogee states that their sensor is calibrated to being 5%±. I called Apogee and explained the issue that I was dealing with. Noah, the customer service rep, knew Photone and was familiar with the consumer level products that are on the market. He was extremely helpful and he gave me the URL to part of the Apogee site that allows you to test your Apogee against a known good light source.
Check it out at this link.
The known good light source is the sun and, when you plug in the values, you get a PPFD that you can use to validate your meter. I tested my Apogee and found that it is reading 2.4% high.
One comment that Noah made about consumer PAR meters is that they tend to have a lot of variance from the Apogee products but they drift pretty quickly. One model, the Ambio-something that's on Amazon, not only varied both above and below their reference meter but, after the six months that they've had that meter, it has drifted by up to 10%.
I would love to be able to use my iPhone in lieu of my Apogee. There are times when all I want to do is take a quick reading in the tent but I've got to get the case out, extend the wand, take the reading, wrap up the cables, get thing put back in the case, etc., etc. Compare that to just launching an app on the iPhone and pressing a few buttons. Given that Photone is consistent, I might be able to calibrate it to match the Apogee. The X3 is in the tent now so I won't be able to test Photone against it until the current grow is harvested and then I'll see how thing pans out.
- Thread starter
- #33
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 65 above ground.
Lots of new growth, plants are developing flowers and growing up, up, and up. Res is stable as can be. Wilma is maturing faster than Chris and the tent is full of foliage. More, later.
Lots of new growth, plants are developing flowers and growing up, up, and up. Res is stable as can be. Wilma is maturing faster than Chris and the tent is full of foliage. More, later.
- Thread starter
- #34
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 68 above ground.
I do not miss the "what's going on with this grow now?" that I've been through in previous grows. I can't say that I couldn't have had this stable a res with Botanicare but I do know that this res has been amazing. Switching brands was the right decision, no question about it.
The res is stable at 5.8. I have had to add Down a few times. My grow diary (the one I keep in Excel) shows that I've had to add Down a few times after each new res. After that, pH is very steady.
On the EC side of the world, my previous res came in a 930 (500) PPM and, over the two week lifespan of that res, PPM leveled off at 770 (500) which is the PPM for the new res, as well.
Water uptake has been significant and consistent with plants taking in over a gallon a day.
Weather has cleared up after a couple of days where we had rain. This week will have high humidity but the Walker is set for 30% and the garage is at 43% so that helps VPD stay in range. For the past week, VPD has varied from 1.1 to 1.4. I've moved lights out to 0100 to take advantage of the heat that comes on later in the day. The wall behind the tent is a southern exposure so it starts heating up just after midday but the car comes home around 1800 so pushing lights out from 2200 to 0100 gives me a few extra hours of elevated temperatures.
Below is the graph from the PulseOne, showing the time period from when the grow went into flower. I was trying to hold a VPD of 1.2 at first but switched to 1.4. The average has been 1.3, the big issue being that I can't get that last few % of RH out of the air. I can live with 1.3, no complaints.
The past few weeks have been marked by the colas/stalks growing well above the foliage that comprises the canopy. I'd really like to have a grow where the whole canopy is level. For my last grow, I had three very compact plants and one huge one, Jeff. Jeff dominated the grow space to the point where I had to cull two of the three smaller plants, leaving Mary. Mary was only 2' tall and was a dream to harvest - just cut off the branches and pluck off the nugs. Jeff fox tailed yielding no nugs, just scads of elongated flowers that I harvested by cupping my hand and stripping it off the stalks. It smokes OK but it was very disappointing.
This time around, I've got two plants and they're huge. In seedling and in veg, the plants were topped and LSt'd and they were bathed in blue light via the Mars SP 3000 + a blue LED. Despite thata, I end up with plants that are 4' tall. Some of that is due to the X3 being a flower light the seed vendor lists Gorilla Glue as being "compact" and my 2' tall Gelato was "average". How can a 2' tall Gelato be "average" when the 4' all GG's are "compact"?
I haven't put a trellis over the canopy. The test is full of the stalks and their foliage so I ran a line of parachute cord across the front. That's stopping the stalks from leaning out of the tent. I've got a couple of small boxes under some of the branches in an effort to keep the net pot level. I'll add a trellis sooner during my next grow.
Light has been interesting. Typically, I measure light in different areas - front to back and left to right. With the colas popping up light this, that approach doesn't give me the information I'm looking for. The key data is the PPFD on the colas so I sample each of the tall colas to determine DLI.
Two sets of data - the reading from the colas (with a couple of them left out) and a second set with the very low readings eliminated. From a data perspective, the low readings should be retained but I don't care about the low readings - the goal is to get as much light on the colas, erring on the side of a bit lower PPFD than a light level that's too high. As much as I want to get a big crop, I keep in mind that even if you bump PPFD to 900 µmols, a photoperiod plant gets only 38 moles and yet they provide a very good yield. The cost/benefit of pushing the DLI for these plants into the 50's just doesn't seem to be there - I suspect they'll do just fine with DLI's being in the mid-40's.
The data I've pasted in here are "all colas" on the left and "main crop" (?), where I've removed the values from the plants that are on the perimeter, on the right. "62" and "4" are the standard deviation.
I did get a good opportunity to grab and X2 veg light. It arrived on Friday and it will stay in the box until the Summer heat passes.
My diary indicates that that the first flowers appeared at day 48 and this is only day 68 so I've got quite a ways to go. I'm right at the inside of the "10 -14 weeks" timeframe but I don't see these being ready in just 4 weeks. Anyone put money on July 4?
Pictures below. The pictures are pretty meh. They don't show a whole lot. There's just a lot of stalks popping their heads up but the flowers are still in the early stages so it looks like what it really is - a lot of stalks popping their heads up but the flowers are still in the early stages.
I've super cropped at least half a dozen of the colas and, just yesterday, hung a 1 oz weight on one of the super cropped stalks. I've been removing dead and dying leaves as well as some of the tiny stalks that are underdeveloped, down in the bowels of the canopy.
On that note, just for grins and giggles, I reproduced the "experiment" that Shane @ migro did to shed some light on the idea of "penetration". Bugbee discussed light penetration, specifically he shows how blue, green, red, and far red photons penetrate a leaf to varying degrees. However, I haven't seen the idea of "penetration" mentioned anywhere except by people selling grow lights and by growers. What Shane demonstrated, and something that I realized some years ago while sitting under a tree, is that light, essentially, does not penetrate the canopy of a plant.
I put my Apogee on top of the leaf of a plant and got a reading of 523 µmols. When I put the sensor under the same leaf, it read 83 µmols. The reading was that high because the plant leaf was covering only about ½ the sensor. When I moved the sensor a few inches down and inside the canopy, PPFD was 27 µmols.
Thus, even when ½ the sensor was exposed to the light, the amount of light dropped off by 86% from the top of the leaf to the underside of the leaf. When I moved the sensor into the canopy, over 95% of the light was gone//about 5% had "penetrated" the canopy. Shane was using a broader-leaved plant and the leaf that he used was much wider than the sensor. His reading was that 5% of the PAR was available when the sensor was held against the underside of the leaf. The light compensation point for cannabis is 63 µmols so the foliage under the canopy is a net loss to the plant in terms of photosynthesis.
If you want light to "penetrate the canopy" you've got to remove the leaves blocking the light or add light that shines into the canopy. Light from above the canopy does does not enter the canopy in any usable amount if there's anything between a given location in the canopy and the light source (or reflection of the light, of course).
I do not miss the "what's going on with this grow now?" that I've been through in previous grows. I can't say that I couldn't have had this stable a res with Botanicare but I do know that this res has been amazing. Switching brands was the right decision, no question about it.
The res is stable at 5.8. I have had to add Down a few times. My grow diary (the one I keep in Excel) shows that I've had to add Down a few times after each new res. After that, pH is very steady.
On the EC side of the world, my previous res came in a 930 (500) PPM and, over the two week lifespan of that res, PPM leveled off at 770 (500) which is the PPM for the new res, as well.
Water uptake has been significant and consistent with plants taking in over a gallon a day.
Weather has cleared up after a couple of days where we had rain. This week will have high humidity but the Walker is set for 30% and the garage is at 43% so that helps VPD stay in range. For the past week, VPD has varied from 1.1 to 1.4. I've moved lights out to 0100 to take advantage of the heat that comes on later in the day. The wall behind the tent is a southern exposure so it starts heating up just after midday but the car comes home around 1800 so pushing lights out from 2200 to 0100 gives me a few extra hours of elevated temperatures.
Below is the graph from the PulseOne, showing the time period from when the grow went into flower. I was trying to hold a VPD of 1.2 at first but switched to 1.4. The average has been 1.3, the big issue being that I can't get that last few % of RH out of the air. I can live with 1.3, no complaints.
The past few weeks have been marked by the colas/stalks growing well above the foliage that comprises the canopy. I'd really like to have a grow where the whole canopy is level. For my last grow, I had three very compact plants and one huge one, Jeff. Jeff dominated the grow space to the point where I had to cull two of the three smaller plants, leaving Mary. Mary was only 2' tall and was a dream to harvest - just cut off the branches and pluck off the nugs. Jeff fox tailed yielding no nugs, just scads of elongated flowers that I harvested by cupping my hand and stripping it off the stalks. It smokes OK but it was very disappointing.
This time around, I've got two plants and they're huge. In seedling and in veg, the plants were topped and LSt'd and they were bathed in blue light via the Mars SP 3000 + a blue LED. Despite thata, I end up with plants that are 4' tall. Some of that is due to the X3 being a flower light the seed vendor lists Gorilla Glue as being "compact" and my 2' tall Gelato was "average". How can a 2' tall Gelato be "average" when the 4' all GG's are "compact"?
I haven't put a trellis over the canopy. The test is full of the stalks and their foliage so I ran a line of parachute cord across the front. That's stopping the stalks from leaning out of the tent. I've got a couple of small boxes under some of the branches in an effort to keep the net pot level. I'll add a trellis sooner during my next grow.
Light has been interesting. Typically, I measure light in different areas - front to back and left to right. With the colas popping up light this, that approach doesn't give me the information I'm looking for. The key data is the PPFD on the colas so I sample each of the tall colas to determine DLI.
Two sets of data - the reading from the colas (with a couple of them left out) and a second set with the very low readings eliminated. From a data perspective, the low readings should be retained but I don't care about the low readings - the goal is to get as much light on the colas, erring on the side of a bit lower PPFD than a light level that's too high. As much as I want to get a big crop, I keep in mind that even if you bump PPFD to 900 µmols, a photoperiod plant gets only 38 moles and yet they provide a very good yield. The cost/benefit of pushing the DLI for these plants into the 50's just doesn't seem to be there - I suspect they'll do just fine with DLI's being in the mid-40's.
The data I've pasted in here are "all colas" on the left and "main crop" (?), where I've removed the values from the plants that are on the perimeter, on the right. "62" and "4" are the standard deviation.
I did get a good opportunity to grab and X2 veg light. It arrived on Friday and it will stay in the box until the Summer heat passes.
My diary indicates that that the first flowers appeared at day 48 and this is only day 68 so I've got quite a ways to go. I'm right at the inside of the "10 -14 weeks" timeframe but I don't see these being ready in just 4 weeks. Anyone put money on July 4?
Pictures below. The pictures are pretty meh. They don't show a whole lot. There's just a lot of stalks popping their heads up but the flowers are still in the early stages so it looks like what it really is - a lot of stalks popping their heads up but the flowers are still in the early stages.
I've super cropped at least half a dozen of the colas and, just yesterday, hung a 1 oz weight on one of the super cropped stalks. I've been removing dead and dying leaves as well as some of the tiny stalks that are underdeveloped, down in the bowels of the canopy.
On that note, just for grins and giggles, I reproduced the "experiment" that Shane @ migro did to shed some light on the idea of "penetration". Bugbee discussed light penetration, specifically he shows how blue, green, red, and far red photons penetrate a leaf to varying degrees. However, I haven't seen the idea of "penetration" mentioned anywhere except by people selling grow lights and by growers. What Shane demonstrated, and something that I realized some years ago while sitting under a tree, is that light, essentially, does not penetrate the canopy of a plant.
I put my Apogee on top of the leaf of a plant and got a reading of 523 µmols. When I put the sensor under the same leaf, it read 83 µmols. The reading was that high because the plant leaf was covering only about ½ the sensor. When I moved the sensor a few inches down and inside the canopy, PPFD was 27 µmols.
Thus, even when ½ the sensor was exposed to the light, the amount of light dropped off by 86% from the top of the leaf to the underside of the leaf. When I moved the sensor into the canopy, over 95% of the light was gone//about 5% had "penetrated" the canopy. Shane was using a broader-leaved plant and the leaf that he used was much wider than the sensor. His reading was that 5% of the PAR was available when the sensor was held against the underside of the leaf. The light compensation point for cannabis is 63 µmols so the foliage under the canopy is a net loss to the plant in terms of photosynthesis.
If you want light to "penetrate the canopy" you've got to remove the leaves blocking the light or add light that shines into the canopy. Light from above the canopy does does not enter the canopy in any usable amount if there's anything between a given location in the canopy and the light source (or reflection of the light, of course).
- Thread starter
- #35
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Day 87 above ground.
[tap, tap, tap] Is this thing on?
The grow has gone really well and the res has been incredible. Regardless of the EC of a new res, pH drops a bit for a few days and then is smooth as silk. I'm loathe to blindly say that Jack's 3-2-1 is the reason but it's the same light, the same res, and seeds from the same packet as a previous grow. But, unlike my previous grows, I have had zero issues with the res. After the two day pH drop, it's almost like I have to tap the gas gauge to make sure that it's working. Really amazing.
Weather continues to have been great but we're starting to get some daily highs in the mid-80's. RH is 70's to 50's so it's a little moist for flower. By mid-afternoon, the tent was hitting 85°. Until the last few days, I was able to keep things in check but, even if I made it through the afternoon warm up, then the car comes home so I was looking at a jump of at least 5°. I read somewhere that terpene production may be hampered above 80°. I certainly don't want that and I don't want to find out how well cannabis does (or doesn') grow at those temps.
Temps do drop quickly at sunset and dip into the low 60's at night but I'm loathe to open the back door of the garage - that's how I got thrips last summer.
Technology to the rescue, once again. I fired up the room A/C. It's a Whynter 14,000 BTU monster. I fired it up yesterday afternoon and it stays at 80° with RH 50-55%. It's amazing how much easier it is to just use the AC instead of jumping through hoops to ventilate out the hot air. Except during blackouts here in California.
Plants - oh, yeh, the plants!
The plants stopped growing a couple of weeks ago, maybe. Colas are stacking up and some are a few inches in diameter. There are lots of trichs and all of the trichs are clear. Nugs are dense. Calyxes are prominent and they're getting bigger daily.
Light - Light levels were <= 50 mols primarily because that what the Photone programmer recommended. The plants are doing just fine but light levels have never gone over 700 µmols. I was looking at some lighting info (again) and watched a De Bacco University video on YouTube and it finally accepted that I should be at 900 µmols. The plants are healthy and the conditions can't get get better (this grow has been hiccough free) so I cranked up the light to 100%. It's pretty damn bright in there!
Both plants were topped and LST'd so the stems grew in a circle around the center of each plant. That means that I'm lighting the tops of the colas rather than the foliage below and there's hole in the middle of the canopy. It's not a "nice even canopy" - it's more like a bunch of castle spires sticking up.
I'll move the colas with the DLI's in red. Can't complain about the lighting, that's for sure.
And my SP 3000 officially retired when the Growcraft X2 arrived. I'm using the "full cycle/flowering optimized" version of the X3 and I think the huge amount of red is one reason for why I grow 4' tall autos.
I fired up the new light. Yup, it's blue and put it back in the box. BTW, those are some evil bastards who work at Chilled and who designed those boxes. You can get it back in the box but, it was one of those "Oh, you're kidding me!" moments when I figured out what was needed to get the Genie back in the bottle.
How Soon? - when I started this grow, I laughed about this grow taking until mid-July. That was based on my past grows. A big difference is that this grow has been problem-free. Right now, I'm aiming for end of June and, I've got to admit, I'm really looking forward to it being done.
What's next? No grows over the summer. I don't really need to grow over the summer, supply-wise. Even with the turbulence I hit in my previous two grows, there are plenty of reserves. I'd have to run the Whynter AC unit which would cost at least a few hundred dollars a month in electricity. Then there's the power outages here in SoCal. Nah, I'll skip the summer, make some changes to the grow environment, and then pick things up in the Fall.
The next question - what to grow? My 2017 grow was photos but the other three grows have been autos. I'm trying to think of why I would want to grow photos. Yield is better but I like being able to have the tent open rather than bundled up.
I'm also thinking about using a big Igloo cooler instead of my current res. Why not using something that's insulated? And there's also the idea of ditching the current res top and making one of my own. That wouldn't be all that difficult and I could create something that works just the way I want it to.
Final thoughts - I have a trellis and I'm regretting having not used it for this grow. And…I top my plants so the apical stem is gone. Stems grow vertically and, without a trellis, they fall to the outside of the tent which is where the light levels roll off. Ugh. Self-inflicted.
"Four lights. I see four lights" - yeh, back to "too many plants in the res". These autos are 4' tall and Chris is 3' in diameter. My hunch is that they're that big because of the 35 gallon res and because the Growcraft is red-heavy. Those two factors will lead to big plants so it makes sense to just grow one plant, train it the way I want, and back up the combine at harvest time.
OK, pictures.
[tap, tap, tap] Is this thing on?
The grow has gone really well and the res has been incredible. Regardless of the EC of a new res, pH drops a bit for a few days and then is smooth as silk. I'm loathe to blindly say that Jack's 3-2-1 is the reason but it's the same light, the same res, and seeds from the same packet as a previous grow. But, unlike my previous grows, I have had zero issues with the res. After the two day pH drop, it's almost like I have to tap the gas gauge to make sure that it's working. Really amazing.
Weather continues to have been great but we're starting to get some daily highs in the mid-80's. RH is 70's to 50's so it's a little moist for flower. By mid-afternoon, the tent was hitting 85°. Until the last few days, I was able to keep things in check but, even if I made it through the afternoon warm up, then the car comes home so I was looking at a jump of at least 5°. I read somewhere that terpene production may be hampered above 80°. I certainly don't want that and I don't want to find out how well cannabis does (or doesn') grow at those temps.
Temps do drop quickly at sunset and dip into the low 60's at night but I'm loathe to open the back door of the garage - that's how I got thrips last summer.
Technology to the rescue, once again. I fired up the room A/C. It's a Whynter 14,000 BTU monster. I fired it up yesterday afternoon and it stays at 80° with RH 50-55%. It's amazing how much easier it is to just use the AC instead of jumping through hoops to ventilate out the hot air. Except during blackouts here in California.
Plants - oh, yeh, the plants!
The plants stopped growing a couple of weeks ago, maybe. Colas are stacking up and some are a few inches in diameter. There are lots of trichs and all of the trichs are clear. Nugs are dense. Calyxes are prominent and they're getting bigger daily.
Light - Light levels were <= 50 mols primarily because that what the Photone programmer recommended. The plants are doing just fine but light levels have never gone over 700 µmols. I was looking at some lighting info (again) and watched a De Bacco University video on YouTube and it finally accepted that I should be at 900 µmols. The plants are healthy and the conditions can't get get better (this grow has been hiccough free) so I cranked up the light to 100%. It's pretty damn bright in there!
Both plants were topped and LST'd so the stems grew in a circle around the center of each plant. That means that I'm lighting the tops of the colas rather than the foliage below and there's hole in the middle of the canopy. It's not a "nice even canopy" - it's more like a bunch of castle spires sticking up.
I'll move the colas with the DLI's in red. Can't complain about the lighting, that's for sure.
And my SP 3000 officially retired when the Growcraft X2 arrived. I'm using the "full cycle/flowering optimized" version of the X3 and I think the huge amount of red is one reason for why I grow 4' tall autos.
I fired up the new light. Yup, it's blue and put it back in the box. BTW, those are some evil bastards who work at Chilled and who designed those boxes. You can get it back in the box but, it was one of those "Oh, you're kidding me!" moments when I figured out what was needed to get the Genie back in the bottle.
How Soon? - when I started this grow, I laughed about this grow taking until mid-July. That was based on my past grows. A big difference is that this grow has been problem-free. Right now, I'm aiming for end of June and, I've got to admit, I'm really looking forward to it being done.
What's next? No grows over the summer. I don't really need to grow over the summer, supply-wise. Even with the turbulence I hit in my previous two grows, there are plenty of reserves. I'd have to run the Whynter AC unit which would cost at least a few hundred dollars a month in electricity. Then there's the power outages here in SoCal. Nah, I'll skip the summer, make some changes to the grow environment, and then pick things up in the Fall.
The next question - what to grow? My 2017 grow was photos but the other three grows have been autos. I'm trying to think of why I would want to grow photos. Yield is better but I like being able to have the tent open rather than bundled up.
I'm also thinking about using a big Igloo cooler instead of my current res. Why not using something that's insulated? And there's also the idea of ditching the current res top and making one of my own. That wouldn't be all that difficult and I could create something that works just the way I want it to.
Final thoughts - I have a trellis and I'm regretting having not used it for this grow. And…I top my plants so the apical stem is gone. Stems grow vertically and, without a trellis, they fall to the outside of the tent which is where the light levels roll off. Ugh. Self-inflicted.
"Four lights. I see four lights" - yeh, back to "too many plants in the res". These autos are 4' tall and Chris is 3' in diameter. My hunch is that they're that big because of the 35 gallon res and because the Growcraft is red-heavy. Those two factors will lead to big plants so it makes sense to just grow one plant, train it the way I want, and back up the combine at harvest time.
OK, pictures.
- Thread starter
- #36
Delps8
Well-Known Member
An expression I mad up some years ago is "Almost all the bullets missed."
Per my previous posting, this grow has amazingly well. I'm really pleased with how things have turned out but it looks like I need to avoid the middle of the year for growing because that's when thrips abound.
Yup, I was just topping off the res and discovered that I have a thrip infestation.
I drenched most of the grow with Spinosad but, not being able to get to the underside of all of the leaves, the best I can hope for is to slow it down. I was thinking that I was a couple of weeks from done so we'll see how long the plants can hold out.
Per my previous posting, this grow has amazingly well. I'm really pleased with how things have turned out but it looks like I need to avoid the middle of the year for growing because that's when thrips abound.
Yup, I was just topping off the res and discovered that I have a thrip infestation.
I drenched most of the grow with Spinosad but, not being able to get to the underside of all of the leaves, the best I can hope for is to slow it down. I was thinking that I was a couple of weeks from done so we'll see how long the plants can hold out.
Listersmeghead
Well-Known Member
Hiya delps8.
I had thrips late in flower on one occasion, I was in the same boat running a packed tent with a res...so like yourself couldn't get the plants out to treat them.
I found that thrips aren't very good at sticking to the plant...vigorous shaking made them fall like blossom from trees.
Obviously as vigorous as can without damaging the plant...also tapping the trunk had a similar effect, again tapping firmly but not to damage.
I'd hold a sheet of paper underneath to catch the falling thrips...I was quite suprised with how many just fell off.
It kept the numbers low and managable.
amazing autos
I had thrips late in flower on one occasion, I was in the same boat running a packed tent with a res...so like yourself couldn't get the plants out to treat them.
I found that thrips aren't very good at sticking to the plant...vigorous shaking made them fall like blossom from trees.
Obviously as vigorous as can without damaging the plant...also tapping the trunk had a similar effect, again tapping firmly but not to damage.
I'd hold a sheet of paper underneath to catch the falling thrips...I was quite suprised with how many just fell off.
It kept the numbers low and managable.
amazing autos
- Thread starter
- #38
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your message. I appreciate the info.Hiya delps8.
I had thrips late in flower on one occasion, I was in the same boat running a packed tent with a res...so like yourself couldn't get the plants out to treat them.
I found that thrips aren't very good at sticking to the plant...vigorous shaking made them fall like blossom from trees.
Obviously as vigorous as can without damaging the plant...also tapping the trunk had a similar effect, again tapping firmly but not to damage.
I'd hold a sheet of paper underneath to catch the falling thrips...I was quite suprised with how many just fell off.
It kept the numbers low and managable.
amazing autos
I was just in the tent and tried shaking both plants. Quite a few leaves fell and maybe some thrips. I cleaned off the top of the res and put the paper towel in the trash can outside the garage.
I've got a lingering suspicion that this might not have happened if I had used the AC instead of opening the back door to get rid of some of the heat. On the other hand, the only thing back there is a few small bushes, a tall hedge around the HVAC unit, and a pine tree. The rest of it is just gravel. How would that environment have supported thrips?
Running that AC unit is not cheap ($200 per month) but I might have avoided thrips and I know that it would have made this grow much easier because it would be essentially zero effort to maintain VPD. Until I started running the AC I had a daily range of almost 10° + the temps taking off when the car was parked in the garage at the end of the day. VPD gets to 1.4 about an hour after lights on and just stays there. Well worth the $$ but I cheaped out and maybe now I'm paying the price.
"amazing autos" - Thank you. This grow has gone very well and I'm glad for it. I'll be starting my next grow in September. I'm tempted to grow autos again but I need to figure out how to stop them from growing out of the tent.
scottreid1966
Well-Known Member
Het there, Delp!Thank you for your message. I appreciate the info.
I was just in the tent and tried shaking both plants. Quite a few leaves fell and maybe some thrips. I cleaned off the top of the res and put the paper towel in the trash can outside the garage.
I've got a lingering suspicion that this might not have happened if I had used the AC instead of opening the back door to get rid of some of the heat. On the other hand, the only thing back there is a few small bushes, a tall hedge around the HVAC unit, and a pine tree. The rest of it is just gravel. How would that environment have supported thrips?
Running that AC unit is not cheap ($200 per month) but I might have avoided thrips and I know that it would have made this grow much easier because it would be essentially zero effort to maintain VPD. Until I started running the AC I had a daily range of almost 10° + the temps taking off when the car was parked in the garage at the end of the day. VPD gets to 1.4 about an hour after lights on and just stays there. Well worth the $$ but I cheaped out and maybe now I'm paying the price.
"amazing autos" - Thank you. This grow has gone very well and I'm glad for it. I'll be starting my next grow in September. I'm tempted to grow autos again but I need to figure out how to stop them from growing out of the tent.
Nugs are looking sweet, bro!
You wouldn't have a photo of thrips, by chance?. Can't seem to find SNS209 nor Spinosad, on Amazon. Would just neem oil sprayed onto leaves be sufficient?
Thanks
- Thread starter
- #40
Delps8
Well-Known Member
Scott:
I'll get a photo later today. I need to get away for a bit. This has really "put a hitch in my git along".
Try this: Natural Guard Spinosad Soap
Neem oil is OK for earlier in the plant lifecycle. These look to be a couple of weeks, out if all goes well, or sooner if the thrip damage necessitates it. With that short a timeline, Spinosad is the preferred solution because Neem oil has a residue.
Thrips live on the underside of leaves which means I'd have to turn each leaf over and spray it. That's not practical so the mission has changed to "die in place".