Fools Rush In: Newbie's Adventures In Suboptimal Conditions
- Thread starter syenite
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- #242
syenite
Well-Known Member
Major update part 2: Unorthodox methods for unorthodox conditions
Alright, I've had my nap, had some dinner, had a toke, and really feel stoked that you guys are around! I'll talk about the training idea. At length.
Because I'm a..
WARNING: NERD ALERT
YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE NODES REFERRED TO BY NUMBER!!
Ok please bear with me. I know this is probably overzealous-beginner type talk. At least I hope you will find the questions interesting!
The initial constraints
Because I am dealing with an unorthodox grow space, I have to consider unorthodox means. It's a small and relatively narrow space. Trying to take advantage of the horizontal canopy is for me already a lost battle. And it's weird even have to call it a "horizontal" canopy. Of course it's a horizontal canopy.
Vertical canopy
But because of the narrowness of the space and the way the lights are set up, I think it makes sense for me to try to think of the canopy "vertically" - a vertical plane rather than a horizontal one.
Strategy
So with that in mind, I borrowed what I think of as the main strategies of the quadline: 1) maximise a single topping combined with pruning; 2) create a symmetrical base; and 3) allow that base to grow upwards once well established. The difference is that I need a "vertical" version of the quadline.
Tactics
In the quadline, one typically leaves a set of adjacent nodes after topping, most commonly 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. For this training, I've chosen the alternating nodes, which all grow along the same axis: 3, 5 and 7. My plant is therefore "flat" against the lights in front of it. At each node, I'll train the growth tips down, and let them grow towards the edge of the pot, same as in the quadline.
Stadium seating
What I hope to end up with is three outstretched "rows" (pairs of branches) as my base. Think rows of seats, like in an opera house or stadium or cinema. And the lights are the stage. I keep thinking of the shape of the plant as a "powerline", in the sense of a utility post with multiple cables running across it.
Once the branches have reached the edge of the pot (a straight line as opposed to the X of a quadline), I'll allow the growth tips all along the flattened branches to grow upwards, as well as the ends of each main branch, same as with the quadline. I will probably prune any growth tips that stray from the main axis. It will probably involve more pruning than a quadline.
Vertical columns
At this point I'll allow all the growth from the three rows to grow upwards in late veg and the flowering stretch. With the space between each row, the hope is that, perhaps with some additional tying down and whatnot, I can also keep the branches and colas evenly spaced. At this point, the goal is to have every growth tip and bud site exposed uniformly to the front lights.
I think that's it. Does it make sense??
I hope that was readable at the very least. Maybe I will look back on this post and the only thing I will see is the psychic residue of a mind driven amok by small smelly plants.
Alright, I've had my nap, had some dinner, had a toke, and really feel stoked that you guys are around! I'll talk about the training idea. At length.
Because I'm a..WARNING: NERD ALERT
YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE NODES REFERRED TO BY NUMBER!!
Ok please bear with me. I know this is probably overzealous-beginner type talk. At least I hope you will find the questions interesting!
The initial constraints
Because I am dealing with an unorthodox grow space, I have to consider unorthodox means. It's a small and relatively narrow space. Trying to take advantage of the horizontal canopy is for me already a lost battle. And it's weird even have to call it a "horizontal" canopy. Of course it's a horizontal canopy.
Vertical canopy
But because of the narrowness of the space and the way the lights are set up, I think it makes sense for me to try to think of the canopy "vertically" - a vertical plane rather than a horizontal one.
Strategy
So with that in mind, I borrowed what I think of as the main strategies of the quadline: 1) maximise a single topping combined with pruning; 2) create a symmetrical base; and 3) allow that base to grow upwards once well established. The difference is that I need a "vertical" version of the quadline.
Tactics
In the quadline, one typically leaves a set of adjacent nodes after topping, most commonly 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. For this training, I've chosen the alternating nodes, which all grow along the same axis: 3, 5 and 7. My plant is therefore "flat" against the lights in front of it. At each node, I'll train the growth tips down, and let them grow towards the edge of the pot, same as in the quadline.
Stadium seating
What I hope to end up with is three outstretched "rows" (pairs of branches) as my base. Think rows of seats, like in an opera house or stadium or cinema. And the lights are the stage. I keep thinking of the shape of the plant as a "powerline", in the sense of a utility post with multiple cables running across it.
Once the branches have reached the edge of the pot (a straight line as opposed to the X of a quadline), I'll allow the growth tips all along the flattened branches to grow upwards, as well as the ends of each main branch, same as with the quadline. I will probably prune any growth tips that stray from the main axis. It will probably involve more pruning than a quadline.
Vertical columns
At this point I'll allow all the growth from the three rows to grow upwards in late veg and the flowering stretch. With the space between each row, the hope is that, perhaps with some additional tying down and whatnot, I can also keep the branches and colas evenly spaced. At this point, the goal is to have every growth tip and bud site exposed uniformly to the front lights.
I think that's it. Does it make sense??
I hope that was readable at the very least. Maybe I will look back on this post and the only thing I will see is the psychic residue of a mind driven amok by small smelly plants.
- Thread starter
- #243
syenite
Well-Known Member
Love the night time shot with the doors open on your spaces! That’s grow creep. You thought you were planning one, but ended up with two gardens. Serendipity, as I have said before, is, according to Richard Dawkins, when you are looking for a needle in a haystack, but instead you find the farmer’s daughter!
I’ll be interested to see how you train that one for your flower cabinet. I’d quad it, but that’s me. Another thing I do which you may want to - especially since you have lighting down one side - is I turn each pot in the flower room 90* every day. It feels a little OCD, but the plants seem to ‘like’ it.
Nice work, Sy. You rock
Thank you DD! Are you calling me a grow creep? Because I've definitely become one.
Hahahah yeah I knew I would find a way to justify having another wee box...
I would love to quad it but it really is impossibly narrow for a quad.
Yeah the plant disappears when you look at it from the side
It really only has two sides. So a 180 degree turn every day it is! It has direct light from above too so it should mitigate some of that unevenness.
Nice work, Sy. You rock
Oh no..
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- #244
syenite
Well-Known Member
I love a great story with a happy ending! Nice cabinet, slim.
Well done Syenite! Glad you worked out a solution.
Thanks guys! The proof will be in the pudding though eh?
It is great you've got a plan and have written it down! It sounds good, but when you have done the training and had the growth it'll then be good to see how its all panned out.
- Thread starter
- #246
syenite
Well-Known Member
Pruning for the base
And so it begins.
Here you can see nodes 3, 5 and the developing 7. 6 was just removed. I've also been gently bending down the growth tips at 3.
And here's what it looks like top-down in the box. This is the single "line" of the plant.
I'll be topping when 7 is more fully out and there's space between 7 and 8.
And so it begins.
Here you can see nodes 3, 5 and the developing 7. 6 was just removed. I've also been gently bending down the growth tips at 3.
And here's what it looks like top-down in the box. This is the single "line" of the plant.
I'll be topping when 7 is more fully out and there's space between 7 and 8.
You’re going to make an espalier!
An outstanding idea, with your constraints!
An outstanding idea, with your constraints!
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- #249
syenite
Well-Known Member
You’re going to make an espalier!
An outstanding idea, with your constraints!
OMG! It's a real thing!!
That is EXACTLY what I'm trying to do!
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- #250
syenite
Well-Known Member
More specifically, that is what the base should look like before I allow the growth upwards!
Hiya syenite!
Thought I'd come by and join in the fun. You've got a good following so you're all set. Good luck! I love the journal title btw
Thought I'd come by and join in the fun. You've got a good following so you're all set. Good luck! I love the journal title btw
- Thread starter
- #252
syenite
Well-Known Member
Hiya syenite!
Thought I'd come by and join in the fun. You've got a good following so you're all set. Good luck! I love the journal title btw
So nice to have you stop by MrS!
Yes, it's been a precarious road, and the best thing is having fellow travellers here.
Haha I'm glad you like the title. I'm no Shakespeare (or Pope I guess), but this journal has had its fair share of tragedy and comedy...
Now, let's hope I can round it off with some good growing!
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- #253
syenite
Well-Known Member
Hmmm! I might be seeing signs of magnesium deficiency on two of the plants.
They are on the lower leaves, while in one of the plants it's also crept up to the middle leaves. The branches are also purpley coloured.
If diagnosis is correct, could be due to a literal lack of magnesium in the tap water here (council site says we do indeed have soft water). Or it could be that my soil pH is too low. I did both a slurry test and a probe test with my Bluelab and both are saying the soil is acidic between 5 and 5.5. In fact, I tried a control test with just wet soil and my Bluelab's telling me it's 4.5 pH!
I know - I'm going back on my own advice to not think about soil pH. But this is a locally produced mix and I literally can't find any information about it on the internet. All I have to go on is what's on the bag. The company website doesn't exist either, lol. So I'm suspicious. I have ordered Canna Terra Pro (thanks @DonkeyDick for the recommendation), for re-potting as a last resort.
So I have a few possible routes.
If it's an actual deficiency (not caused by lockout), I could water/flush with molasses, or feed with CalMagPhos+.
If it's a soil pH problem, I have some dolomite lime to top dress with, or I could totally "re-soil" the plant with the same soil amended properly with dolomite lime. OR I could wait for the new potting mix to arrive and re-pot/up-pot with that.
Any suggestions y’all? Which should I start with? If I wanted to go lowest-risk and most reversible, I assume that's flushing/feeding with molasses?
They are on the lower leaves, while in one of the plants it's also crept up to the middle leaves. The branches are also purpley coloured.
If diagnosis is correct, could be due to a literal lack of magnesium in the tap water here (council site says we do indeed have soft water). Or it could be that my soil pH is too low. I did both a slurry test and a probe test with my Bluelab and both are saying the soil is acidic between 5 and 5.5. In fact, I tried a control test with just wet soil and my Bluelab's telling me it's 4.5 pH!
I know - I'm going back on my own advice to not think about soil pH. But this is a locally produced mix and I literally can't find any information about it on the internet. All I have to go on is what's on the bag. The company website doesn't exist either, lol. So I'm suspicious. I have ordered Canna Terra Pro (thanks @DonkeyDick for the recommendation), for re-potting as a last resort.
So I have a few possible routes.
If it's an actual deficiency (not caused by lockout), I could water/flush with molasses, or feed with CalMagPhos+.
If it's a soil pH problem, I have some dolomite lime to top dress with, or I could totally "re-soil" the plant with the same soil amended properly with dolomite lime. OR I could wait for the new potting mix to arrive and re-pot/up-pot with that.
Any suggestions y’all? Which should I start with? If I wanted to go lowest-risk and most reversible, I assume that's flushing/feeding with molasses?
I have not encountered that before so I would rather let someone else chime in with greater experience than me. Good luck!
I’ve never encountered this before either, but I’m all for hitting things with hammers to see if they will move again.Mine is one vote for fertigating the dolomite/lime in there.
This because the first time I ever used (probably the same product you have in your hand) it was after a certain amount of chin scratching. I mixed up the dose as per and thought ‘gee that’s, well you know it’s in there’ it was white. Poured it through (watered to run off) and the run off came out as clear as filtered water. I wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it. It went in looking like chalk and came out clear.
Give it a go.
On the molasses rinse/flush wotsit. I always thought the molasses was for carbs to feed the herd. Because of that I’d suggest the molasses would perhaps be of more use after the rinse to help to rebuild? Much like taking acidophilus after a course of antibiotics.
Random thoughts for the ether.
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- #256
syenite
Well-Known Member
Mine is one vote for fertigating the dolomite/lime in there.
This because the first time I ever used (probably the same product you have in your hand) it was after a certain amount of chin scratching. I mixed up the dose as per and thought ‘gee that’s, well you know it’s in there’ it was white. Poured it through (watered to run off) and the run off came out as clear as filtered water. I wouldn’t have believed it if I didn’t see it. It went in looking like chalk and came out clear.
Give it a go.
On the molasses rinse/flush wotsit. I always thought the molasses was for carbs to feed the herd. Because of that I’d suggest the molasses would perhaps be of more use after the rinse to help to rebuild? Much like taking acidophilus after a course of antibiotics.
Random thoughts for the ether.
Thanks DD!
Yup. I think feeding the plant more (directly available) magnesium is maybe the riskiest. If there actually is a pH problem with my potting mix, adding more magnesium (via CalMag) could itself create more problems.
Why I thought about molasses is that it's also a source of magnesium, but (I don't think) it's immediately available to the plant. It will need to be broken down in the soil by the herd. So that's a lower risk to me than the CalMag.
Dolomite lime I like because it would both help with the soil pH and provide a source of calcium and magnesium. Again, like molasses, I believe those minerals won't be directly available to the plant either. However, a lot of people don't recommend doing this because overzealous newbies (ahem) are apt to misdiagnose the problem and end up un-balancing their mix with dolomite. Most of the time these growers have checked the runoff pH and freaked out. But I feel I have done my due diligence by testing the actual pH of the mix with the slurry test and the Bluelab pen.
Anyway, I'm not rushing anything. I have all the stuff I could possibly need I think (dolomite lime, molasses, CalMagPhos+, and the new mix is coming).
I don't think this is critical quite yet. There are also a couple/few days until the next watering/feed, so I will take my time and also wait to see if anyone else chimes in!
Cool, Sy. I didn’t know that about molasses and magnesium.
You’ve considered Epsom salts?
You’ve considered Epsom salts?
Hola syenite
While early Mg def is a possibility, leaf tip/serration necrosis says slight to worsening K def to me. Cannabis loves K.
While early Mg def is a possibility, leaf tip/serration necrosis says slight to worsening K def to me. Cannabis loves K.
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- #259
syenite
Well-Known Member
Yup! But I figured CalMag would be better than that/makes that redundant.
Hola syenite
While early Mg def is a possibility, leaf tip/serration necrosis says slight to worsening K def to me. Cannabis loves K.
Dayuuuum!! Ok, thank you!
I will brew on all of this.
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- #260
syenite
Well-Known Member
OK - I'm more and more convinced that it's a lockout issue, caused by pH.
I can't imagine there not being enough of EITHER of these things (magnesium and potassium) in the combination of my tap water, potting mix, and nutes.
I can't imagine there not being enough of EITHER of these things (magnesium and potassium) in the combination of my tap water, potting mix, and nutes.