Fanleaf Tries For A TLO, True Living Organics, Grow With 6 Plants

henr8 said:
Hey fanleaf, glad to see your trying out organics, i've been growing weed this way indoors for a couple of years now, i've been growing vegetables for many years and own a small farm. I'm currently working on a masters degree in biology, all thanks to the initial interest in cannabis.
Anyway i read your ingredient list and must alert that you have way too much nutrients on your soil, you will run into to excess's that will cause deficency's soon enough, if not on your first run it will catch up to you, i promise. I've read the Rev's stuff for a while now...i can't argue with the results he seems to get but to me a lot of his teachings seem quacky....he himself has moved away from such a rich mix and uses mainly chicken manure now. Anyway i'v calculated you have enough nutrient for approxiamtly 30 gallons of soil. Unless i'm missing something....anyway i'm speaking from experience, i tried his methods at first, i was thought to believe cannabis was a ''special growing plant'' with special needs...well it's not, it's nutrient needs (ratio) are close to tomatoes, i've seen large scale indoor soil grows who used....wait for it...epsoma tomato-tone and rock dust. Check out the KIS organics podcast for some great scientific information on growing cannabis.
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Hello, good to have you here!
Which nutrients seem to be the most in excess? I am aware that there is far too much nitrogen just for the plants and most of the nitrogen in the mix is actually for the microorganisms to feed on? I see tons of calcium too.
 
Well TBH i would just cut mix it with more or less 16 gallons of base mix, my favorite go to base is 1/3 aeration (perlite or lava rocks etc) 1/3 peat moss and 1/3 compost (worm castings being the bees knees). And dont worry about the acidity from the peat, all that Lime you've got in the mix will take care of it. That would be a good start.
 
All nutrients your putting in the soil is for the micro organismes, roots cant uptake guano or compost, but they can uptake Ca++ and N03- and so on....and to have access to these nutrients they must first be cycled by either bacteria, protozoa, fungi...etc. So your always feeding the soil, unless your using chelated nutrients. And your microsphere will be much happier in a lighter mix
 
henr8 said:
Well TBH i would just cut mix it with more or less 16 gallons of base mix, my favorite go to base is 1/3 aeration (perlite or lava rocks etc) 1/3 peat moss and 1/3 compost (worm castings being the bees knees). And dont worry about the acidity from the peat, all that Lime you've got in the mix will take care of it. That would be a good start.
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The plan is already to cut the soil with 10-15% more castings and 10%more pumice as I did before I planted the seedlings. That cuts it 20-25% more already. So I think we are actually on the same plan here?
 
henr8 said:
All nutrients your putting in the soil is for the micro organismes, roots cant uptake guano or compost, but they can uptake Ca++ and N03- and so on....and to have access to these nutrients they must first be cycled by either bacteria, protozoa, fungi...etc. So your always feeding the soil, unless your using chelated nutrients. And your microsphere will be much happier in a lighter mix
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Right. No chelated nutrients allowed :). Again, I believe we might all be on the same page because once the soil gets cut with more ewc and pumice by 20 - 25% that seems to be on target with what you are saying, and the microlife should love it too. Right?
 
Well instead of doing all the math, ill just tell you what i put in my soil, it's pretty simple. So there's my base mix as previously stated. For every cubic foot of base soil i'll add 1 cup of kelp, and 2 cups max of mixed dried amendments. (mix all amendments (except kelp) you have in equal amounts and use it as an all around fertilizer). So that's 3 cups max of amendments per cubic foot. You won't be buying amendments for a while, but when the time comes you can just buy a bag of pre-mixed nutrients (like a gaya green 4-4-4) and use that. KISS is the way to with organics.
 
henr8 said:
All nutrients your putting in the soil is for the micro organismes, roots cant uptake guano or compost, but they can uptake Ca++ and N03- and so on....and to have access to these nutrients they must first be cycled by either bacteria, protozoa, fungi...etc. So your always feeding the soil, unless your using chelated nutrients. And your microsphere will be much happier in a lighter mix
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Greetings Henr8, glad you have joined the conversation. You are neglecting to consider that by using SubCool and The Rev's methods and recipes, we are using layers of different types of soil in our containers. There is some light soil at the top and there is super soil and compost at the bottom, and there are layers of EWC and spikes of other nutrients. We know that none of these amendments will uptake directly into the plants and that the only reason the magic happens is not because of the mix itself, but because of the microlife that we add to the system using actively aerated compost teas. You are trying to argue soil dynamics with a TLO grower, and you are totally missing the point as to why he has a LIVING organic grow and why he is not worried about having such a rich soil mix, a mix that has been carefully studied to provide the correct base pH and proper mineral interactions as shown by Mulder's chart. As long as the mineral mix is in the correct proportions so as to not lock out needed elements, TLO growers feed the microlife. The microlife feed the plants. Having 6x the nutrients needed for the grow is inconsequential... the microlife knows what to do and the roots know how to specialize.
 
henr8 said:
Anyway i read your ingredient list and must alert that you have way too much nutrients in your soil, you will run into to excess's that will cause imbalances that will cause deficency's soon enough, if not on your first run it will catch up to you, i promise.
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I have a few questions on this. If this is the case, how are TLO growers re-using their soil, adding only organic material and re-amending it and a short cook again, for 5+ years? It seems many growers are able to use the same soil as mine for near infinity if properly re-amended and cooked. Here is a current journal with TLO soil that is 6 years old right here.. 6 year old soil TLO grow
I mean, I could understand eventually things getting locked out if we were using many liquid ferts with too much hunic,fulvic phosphoric or ascorbic acids into the soil chelating things and throwing off the microbes but we are not.
I hope you do respond because afterall, you did start the conversation. I'm honestly just trying to learn here and so asking questions is how best to do it. So, if you "cannot argue with the Rev's success", how can you argue with Rev's success? There has to be something you are missing simply by saying that while seeing the success right?
 
I myself have been using the same soil for like 10+ years, the only time i've had problems is after the 3rd year, i had clawing dark green leaves and often calcium and magnesium problems, i had a soil test done and found HUGE nitrogen excess's that was imbalancing that caused a bunch of other problems. The big difference i see in the way i grow and the way the REV grows is pot size. He suggest's like 3 gallon pots...which seems completly ridiculous in my mind. I myself run 15 gallons per plant and use ''water only'' method. As i said when i started out in the basement i was led to believe you couldn't use outdoor methods indoors...but that's BS, the whole organic cannabis ''living soil'' movement is all going towards large beds. Now i'm not saying Rev's techniques wont work or won't grow killer weed, it might, hell i've seen it work, it's just way to complicated in my opinion. I don't know if you've read the Rev's blog on the skunk website, but he himself admits his old methods were way to complicated, he now uses self watering pots with kelp in the reservoir and so on. Anyway i hope this helps.
 
henr8 said:
I myself have been using the same soil for like 10+ years, the only time i've had problems is after the 3rd year, i had clawing dark green leaves and often calcium and magnesium problems, i had a soil test done and found HUGE nitrogen excess's that was imbalancing that caused a bunch of other problems. The big difference i see in the way i grow and the way the REV grows is pot size. He suggest's like 3 gallon pots...which seems completly ridiculous in my mind. I myself run 15 gallons per plant and use ''water only'' method. As i said when i started out in the basement i was led to believe you couldn't use outdoor methods indoors...but that's BS, the whole organic cannabis ''living soil'' movement is all going towards large beds. Now i'm not saying Rev's techniques wont work or won't grow killer weed, it might, hell i've seen it work, it's just way to complicated in my opinion. I don't know if you've read the Rev's blog on the skunk website, but he himself admits his old methods were way to complicated, he now uses self watering pots with kelp in the reservoir and so on. Anyway i hope this helps.
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Everything I am doing here is along his newer methods as far as I know. This is the 2.2 mix. I have read his 2nd edition and the changes he has made while tweaking his ingredients. This is what I am doing here too. Nothing I have done is his "old ways" as far as I know. Anything that has gone into my mix are still options in his most up to date stuff as far as I know. How is a 3 gallon pot ridiculous when you are only growing under a 400w MH light? I can see it being small if you are growing large plants under 1000w lights after a 8-10 week veg but the Rev himself says he grows smaller plants purposely because he has some physical limitations. I'm not sure a 3 foot tall plant in a 3 gallon pot is out of the ordinary.
 
Emilya said:
Greetings Henr8, glad you have joined the conversation. You are neglecting to consider that by using SubCool and The Rev's methods and recipes, we are using layers of different types of soil in our containers. There is some light soil at the top and there is super soil and compost at the bottom, and there are layers of EWC and spikes of other nutrients. We know that none of these amendments will uptake directly into the plants and that the only reason the magic happens is not because of the mix itself, but because of the microlife that we add to the system using actively aerated compost teas. You are trying to argue soil dynamics with a TLO grower, and you are totally missing the point as to why he has a LIVING organic grow and why he is not worried about having such a rich soil mix, a mix that has been carefully studied to provide the correct base pH and proper mineral interactions as shown by Mulder's chart. As long as the mineral mix is in the correct proportions so as to not lock out needed elements, TLO growers feed the microlife. The microlife feed the plants. Having 6x the nutrients needed for the grow is inconsequential... the microlife knows what to do and the roots know how to specialize.
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Hi Emilya, nice to finally talk, your the one who got me into KNF a couple of years ago.
The point i would like to make is that this soil mix is basically impossible to study. As a biology student doing his masters, i've studied many, many ,many soil samples. And what is incredibly difficult in studying organic farming is the infinite number of variables. The sheer amount of amendements in the soil makes it impossible to know what causes what. That's why a lot of my studies are done on sterile soil, which i then innoculate with the microorganism i want to study. If the Rev has said his mix is ''scientifically'' proven, i would really be interested in seeing the study. And then theres the whole Compost tea thing.....the science behind compost tea is a lot more complicated than he makes it sound. Go read up on Dr Ignham and microbeman if you want an effective compost tea, and youll also need a microscope. His tea's are more like a liquid fertilizer TBH.
 
As i said, to ME it seems ridiculous and a lot of work...you'll see as you get into soil science, there are really so many variables that a lot of it comes down to opinion since we can't prove anything. The Brixer's, the no-tillers, the TLO'S, KNF and the water only guys all grow using the same processes, they just have different views on whats important. I think the important thing to remember is that it works for rev because he's been doing it this way for a long time, he has clearly worked out most the problems he was encountering. When i tried his methods i had varying results. Anyway i'll be following your grow to see how it turns out, should be fun!
 
It is not impossible to understand the interactions between minerals in soil. This was a new concept to me several years ago, but I studied it and through the work of Mulder and others, I now understand cation exchange, flow through rates, absorption and the reasons that various minerals affect the availability of the other minerals in the mix. It is simply intellectual laziness to accept that a soil mix is "impossible to study or that it has infinite variables... it does not.

Yes, properly running a TLO grow is a lot of work. It is totally possible however to go to the opposite side of things and make an organic grow work with nothing but water added, a totally easy way of growing. It just depends on how much you want to put into it and how much you expect to get get out. If you are afraid of a little bit of hard work, or getting messy, TLO is not for you.
Your jumping on Rev for using 3 gallon containers is not justified either. He does not say that this is how it must be done, he just states that this is what he does. I too find that I can get perfectly great results from 3 gallon containers, but my last 7 gallon and 5 gallon projects were also done TLO style... there are no restrictions in this regard.
Yes, Rev has changed his methods over the years and SubCool has changed his recipe. I also regularly change my methods and assumptions, and I use natural fertilizers in my grows, contrary to what many organic farmers would do. The early microbiology work done by Ingram, et. al. has been added to over the years too, and we now know many other beneficial microbes that can and should be added to our grows. You don't find many scientists that have written about the use of oatmeal in their teas for a very special form of desirable bacterium, and many organic growers are light years ahead of the old research by doing experiments with the growth hormones found in 7 row barley seedlings. Then let's talk about the work Doc is doing with the High Brix movement. The state of the art is changing constantly, and the work that I and many others do on these online forums is leading the way. I refuse to listen to the argument that if there is not documentable scientific research on some aspect of this, it doesn't exist or is not valid. What do you think we are doing with our grow journals? The refusal to accept that many of us are actually marijuana cultivation scientists is head in the sand nonsense, because I like others, try hard to keep as current as I can, always researching out several things in my grows, actively trying through our experiments, hypotheses and conclusions to advance the state of the art .
 
This is a very cool conversation here. As someone just getting into TLO this all inspires me to learn more and read and research more to do so. Very good information here.
 
henr8 said:
Awesome, that's what i was hoping!
Here's the article with the simpler flowering recipe i was talking about Artisan Flowering Container Build 2.0 with Rev
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Hope you don't get in too much trouble for linking another site...
When I read the word simple, I wonder automatically, what can I do to make it better? You should see how I built my soil containers for this last grow. It took all of one day to build 6 containers and transplant into them.
 
Well, I'm about to head down into the dungeon. The lights are on and it's time to fill all of the humidifiers and take a gander in my flower room. In the small tent though, I am assuming the seedlings are pretty dry so today will be Mycos inoculation day for the TLO babies. Pictures coming up.
 
Hey i've been thinking about this....what if you used full strength soil for a couple plants and the cut down version on a couple, this would be a great oppertunity for some side by side data
 
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