Droopy girl: water?

[Papa OG]

Hmmm, really? I find my plants take much more water in flower and I give them everything they want (well not really because they drain the reservoir in my SIP on a daily basis and I fill it daily, but it's never enough...).

I'd agree that watering is one of the biggest challenges for new growers to get right. That's why I like the SIP. Perfect watering every time since the plant waters itself. And the built in air gap ensures that there is always oxygen to the lower roots which allow us to run with a wetter environment in veg.

X2

Im in soil, come flower they average 2-2.5 gal every 2 days in 5gal fabric pots. Watered in stages, about .25gal at a time, then start over. I feel like I'm water boarding them. But come last 2 weeks of flower I've noticed they only take what they want. Then I push them to drought hard 4-5days.

 

[Azimuth]

Then I push them to drought hard 4-5days.

OG, have you checked out the draughting thread? We are finding a longer draught helps increase the trichomes and therefore the cannabinoids. It's based on a scientific paper that we've expanded a bit upon.

The study said 11 days starting in week 7 and progress is tracked by measuring a targeted leaf for its wilt angle. It's a bit of a rabbit hole but some good info in there if you haven't seen it.
Draughting Thread

 

[Papa OG]

@Azimuth
Awesome! I'm gonna dig into that! I've seen a few members pushing plants into bursting trichomes. I want that. I could definitely push a few more days, I started a bit late on last run. I felt the last water was needed. I'm up for anything! Droughter it shall be!!! Lmfao

 

[Keffka]

Thank you for taking that one up @Azimuth and @OGpapa I felt like I had already thrown my opinion around enough and didn’t want to come off as a know it all more so than I already do

 

[Papa OG]

@Keffka I know nothing. I just know big pot little plant. Little water. Or know the wet dry cycle.

Most underrated issue. We have all suffered with.

 

[HopHead]

Interesting opinion on flowering. I maintain a wet dry cycle until the end of stretch, then I water to runoff every 1-3 days until she stops drinking it all. Bud rot is more of an airflow issue in my experience and comes from not having enough air moving through the flowers during this time.

You're right. With sufficient airflow one shouldn't get bud rot.

I was told to cut back on the watering during the flowering stage about thirty years ago and have never had bud rot. Back then I was growing Afghani which was very thick and full. I grew 4 plants at a time in a 4' x 4' x 4' space totally enclosed. It was illegal and hidden. The only air flow was a 2" outlet without a fan at the top to allow the heat to escape. Air came into the space through leaks. So air flow was very poor. I grew this way for about 5 years and never had any problems. I never cleaned, disinfected or took any other precautions to prevent molds except to cut back on the watering. Because it worked for me I pass it on.

An interesting side note on that grow; I had a mother that I would clone and I would replace her every so often with one of her clones. So the genetics were the same from beginning to end except for any mutations occurring during the five years. At first I did a lot of pruning during the veg stage to get them the way I wanted them for flowering. After a couple of years I did very little pruning as the plants took on the shape I wanted. My conclusion is plants don't like to be pruned and they will make changes in order for that not to happen.

 

[Keffka]

@Keffka I know nothing. I just know big pot little plant. Little water. Or know the wet dry cycle.

Most underrated issue. We have all suffered with.

So absolutely true. Through all of the reading I did and all of the videos I watched, the wet dry cycle was either never mentioned, or just barely glossed over like it’s not a huge deal if you don’t get it. They would mention watering like it was just assumed everyone knew it already when in reality a whole lot of peoples very first plants are cannabis plants.

It wasn’t until I got to this community that I understood it’s importance, and was able to find a well thought out explanation of it and it improved my grow so much I feel compelled to give knowledge back.

 

[Keffka]

You're right. With sufficient airflow one shouldn't get bud rot.

I was told to cut back on the watering during the flowering stage about thirty years ago and have never had bud rot. Back then I was growing Afghani which was very thick and full. I grew 4 plants at a time in a 4' x 4' x 4' space totally enclosed. It was illegal and hidden. The only air flow was a 2" outlet without a fan at the top to allow the heat to escape. Air came into the space through leaks. So air flow was very poor. I grew this way for about 5 years and never had any problems. I never cleaned, disinfected or took any other precautions to prevent molds except to cut back on the watering. Because it worked for me I pass it on.

An interesting side note on that grow; I had a mother that I would clone and I would replace her every so often with one of her clones. So the genetics were the same from beginning to end except for any mutations occurring during the five years. At first I did a lot of pruning during the veg stage to get them the way I wanted them for flowering. After a couple of years I did very little pruning as the plants took on the shape I wanted. My conclusion is plants don't like to be pruned and they will make changes in order for that not to happen.

Ahh yes.. in that situation I would completely agree.. you’d have to withhold water, there’s really no other choice.

What we’ve found since then is that due to the massive amount of vegetative growth the plant continues to put on during flower, she can benefit tremendously from an increase in water. Personally it looks to me like she puts on just as much if not more green growth in flower as she does in veg. The additional water will really help her bulk up, but like you mentioned, you’ve gotta have the airflow for it. All that extra water definitely increases your RH noticeably which is why so many opt for dehumidifiers as well.

I get it.. If it’s working for you it’s working no need to fix what isn’t broken. I’d suggest seeing if you can see a difference between your current method and increasing the water during flower, I have a feeling you’ll be extremely satisfied. So much of her weight is tied up in water weight, you’ll probably notice quite an increase in your yields.

 

[Azimuth]

Thank you for taking that one up @Azimuth and @OGpapa I felt like I had already thrown my opinion around enough and didn’t want to come off as a know it all more so than I already do

It's all good. He started his plant in a pretty large container off the jump so I suspect he's been unknowingly fighting it the entire time.

But they are pretty classic signs and many of us see the same thing. I'm a very accomplished overwaterer, so I have some experience in the matter.

 

[Azimuth]

I was told to cut back on the watering during the flowering stage about thirty years ago and have never had bud rot. Back then I was growing Afghani which was very thick and full. I grew 4 plants at a time in a 4' x 4' x 4' space totally enclosed. It was illegal and hidden. The only air flow was a 2" outlet without a fan at the top to allow the heat to escape. Air came into the space through leaks. So air flow was very poor. I grew this way for about 5 years and never had any problems. I never cleaned, disinfected or took any other precautions to prevent molds except to cut back on the watering. Because it worked for me I pass it on.

Bud rot is caused by environmental factors that make the plant susectible to the attack from the microbes, so I don't know how light watering would help that. Maybe it gives the plants stress that then causes it to generate a protective response? Or maybe less water equals more space between buds as they are not as filled with moisture and therefore breezes can circulate more freely?

Did you get any support for the suggestion or was it more old grower wisdom passed down?

 

[HopHead]

Bud rot is caused by environmental factors that make the plant susectible to the attack from the microbes, so I don't know how light watering would help that. Maybe it gives the plants stress that then causes it to generate a protective response? Or maybe less water equals more space between buds as they are not as filled with moisture and therefore breezes can circulate more freely?

Did you get any support for the suggestion or was it more old grower wisdom passed down?

As plants respire they give off moisture like we do. My guess is they give off less water and therefore the environment isn't quite as humid as it would otherwise be. And maybe the buds have less water so the mold doesn't find it hospitable. The plants never exhibited stress so I don't think they generated a protective response. But I don't know.

I don't know what you mean when you ask if I got any support. It was grower wisdom passed down.

 

[Keffka]

Bud rot is caused by environmental factors that make the plant susectible to the attack from the microbes, so I don't know how light watering would help that. Maybe it gives the plants stress that then causes it to generate a protective response? Or maybe less water equals more space between buds as they are not as filled with moisture and therefore breezes can circulate more freely?

Did you get any support for the suggestion or was it more old grower wisdom passed down?

Based on the reasoning I assume the logic behind it is, less water equals less transpiration equals less water in the extremely limited airflow space. It seems like back then a lot of the logic was very straightforward and predicated on simple observations without regard to complexities and knock on effects.

I know when the plants are wet my room can hold humidity better than when they’re dry.. Perhaps this was the thought process?

 

[Keffka]

As plants respire they give off moisture like we do. My guess is they give off less water and therefore the environment isn't quite as humid as it would otherwise be. And maybe the buds have less water so the mold doesn't find it hospitable. The plants never exhibited stress so I don't think they generated a protective response. But I don't know.

I don't know what you mean when you ask if I got any support. It was grower wisdom passed down.

Based on the reasoning I assume the logic behind it is, less water equals less transpiration equals less water in the extremely limited airflow space. It seems like back then a lot of the logic was very straightforward and predicated on simple observations without regard to complexities and knock on effects.

I know when the plants are wet my room can hold humidity better than when they’re dry.. Perhaps this was the thought process?

Lol yep.. A lot of the old grower wisdom was very very KISS.. What you see is what you get. You can see it with the older heads around here.. They’re intent on keeping things very very simple, which works for them. I don’t blame them at all, it’s what’s worked for them for longer than some of us have been alive and from a time when they were viewed on par with heroin dealers for growing.

I see it in the older cannabis smokers I know.. they still talk in coded language and act as if it’s illegal even though there’s a recreational dispensary on every corner

 

[Keffka]

I don't know what you mean when you ask if I got any support. It was grower wisdom passed down

I believe he was asking whether you were given reasons for cutting the water off or if it was just told to you as a don’t ask questions this is how we do it type thing.

 

[HopHead]

I believe he was asking whether you were given reasons for cutting the water off or if it was just told to you as a don’t ask questions this is how we do it type thing.

At that time I had little experience growing cannabis. I began to grow through a friend who had friends that grew hydroponically. The knowledge can from the growers via my friend. They knew what they were doing and I was a sponge. Back then the knowledge of how to grow cannabis was not widespread like it is today so when I was told something I accepted it. Back them you could get busted for a joint and feared being imprisoned for having a grow op. A much different time than today. Back then probably the best source for growing information was a book by Mel Frank 'Marijuana Grower's Insider Guide' published in 1988. Otherwise, knowledge came from friends or through just growing and learning as you go.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Your spot on cbdhemp. I do have multiple issues, after coffee an some medical Marijuana I checked her weight and if I can lift her she's dry an I could easily lift her. I'm to medicated to answer all your ?s she is in a 8 gal container and it drains really good I modified it and has gap under the bottom. I knew from the start this was going to be a challenge grow. I have very little control over heat and no control over humidity. But I persevere, all I can do is try my best

OK, I hear you.

Now I am looking at this...

A couple more quick questions...

So, it looks like this 8 gal pot has feet that elevate it maybe an inch? OK, good. Are there holes in the bottom of this pot? I see some very small holes in the feet. For a pot like this, there should be several good-size holes in the bottom of the pot, for proper drainage. One hole in the center, for example, isn't going to work, and would definitely result in a soggy bottom and could definitely result in the droop you are seeing. Things could get worse, too – stem rot. Holes in the side walls at the very base would help too.

When you give water, the proper method will be to saturate the growing medium, and you'll see plenty of runoff, enough to create a layer of water in your tray. When you water, how deep is that layer of water in the tray?

If this were my pot, I'd be giving the plant maybe 4 gallons of water with a high-N liquid fert mixed in. The runoff would be substantial. Then I would wait for some days – possibly 3 to 5 days – until it was obvious that the pot was light and needed more water. If the plant starts to droop a bit, that's the indication she is ready for more water, but of course we try to avoid that stress.

FYI, your plant would do fine in a 5 or 6 gallon pot. It's a fairly small plant. It needs sufficient nutrients and good drainage.

So, my assessment now... Each time you water, if you: 1) are watering enough – i.e. you are getting substantial runoff, 2) are removing that runoff for example with a wet/dry shop vac, and 3) you are waiting long enough before watering again – then your problem isn't related to watering.

If the answer to 1-3 is YES, then this supports the idea that the droop symptoms you are seeing are NOT related to a watering problem.

If the answer to 1 and 2 is NO, then it's a different story... I'll let you respond.

 

[Diatomacious]

With peat based potting mix like you are using it is impossible to overwater unless the pot is sitting in standing water or there are no holes in the pot and the bottom is filled with water. As long as it drains out and you do not let it sit in the runoff it is not overwatered.

 

[Emilya Green]

I just scanned through the entire journal again and I can't find where the question was ever answered. Exactly what is the medium we are growing in here?

 

[cbdhemp808]

With peat based potting mix like you are using it is impossible to overwater unless the pot is sitting in standing water or there are no holes in the pot and the bottom is filled with water. As long as it drains out and you do not let it sit in the runoff it is not overwatered.

I disagree. I had a large plastic pot, maybe 7 gal., and water didn't drain properly even though my custom soil mix with plenty of coco coir is very well-draining, and the pot had holes in the bottom.

There were not enough holes, and no holes at the base of the side walls. The problem is worsened if it's a large plastic pot. I also use 15 gal fabric smart pots, and there's never an issue like this because the fabric is porous to water and the holes are too small to get clogged.

The result was droop and ultimately, stem rot. The plant died.

The question is not *if* the water drains out, but how much water is going in, and *how much* is draining out.

I am waiting with curiosity for the OP to answer my questions.

 

[Canachris]

The soil is Coast of Maine Stonington blend. I drilled about 50-75 3/16th holes in the bottom of the container. I'm giving her 1 gal of water an nutes every 4_7 days depending on condition