Doc Bud: All Organic OG Kush SCROG

OrganicTreees said:
Got my soil all mixed up over the weekend. I think it was 12 cups of EWC that make up a 5lb bag, so I have about half a bag left over. This is what I mixed up

4cuft base soil (happy frog / roots 707 mix)
2cups: blood, bone, bloom guano, greensand, lime, azomite

16cups: EWC

8cups: mushroom compost

1cup: gypsum

1.5 cup: Soft Rock Phosphate

~.5 cup mycorrhizae

Mixed up really well on some leftover panda film I had lying around.. It actually works really well, not as good as a tarp, but as long as you're careful it isn't hard. I'm storing it in a 32 gal trash can, it fills it up to about 6-8" from the rim, then I watered it with 2 gal plain tap water and molasses with a little bit of EWC and compost mixed in which was then just dumped on top.

I've been harvesting my smaller mite damaged plants just to get them out of the way and get healthier plants in there, so all the trimmings and stems have been added to the bin over the past 2 weeks.. When I was turning the soil I could barely see any of the leaves, and the stems were barely visible too. I enjoy recycling and I hope to see some good results from this.
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That looks pretty good! I think you'll be very happy with the finished product from that soil.

You might consider getting some limestone and topping off with it as bloom starts.
 
I'm definitely excited to see how my plants respond. I can' thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and helping me out. I feel I have a nice balanced mix that I can play with in future runs to get dialed into my strains.

different limestone than the caco3 limestone? I used 2 cups in that mix, but have about 3/4 of a bag left over.. How much would you advise top dressing each pot with? I'll be flowering in 1,2,3 gallons based on plant size
 
OrganicTreees said:
I'm definitely excited to see how my plants respond. I can' thank you enough for sharing your knowledge and helping me out. I feel I have a nice balanced mix that I can play with in future runs to get dialed into my strains.

different limestone than the caco3 limestone? I used 2 cups in that mix, but have about 3/4 of a bag left over.. How much would you advise top dressing each pot with? I'll be flowering in 1,2,3 gallons based on plant size
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Perfect. I thought you used dolomite for a minute. You'll be fine.

Maybe recharge the limestone/SRP/Gypsum trio at 1/4 the original amounts on about the 2nd week of bloom. Keep the microbes happy and they'll take good care of their plants. The plants feed them candy and desert, which they crave, and all they have to do is dig in the dirt and crack rocks to get it.
 
works out to be about 1/4 cup per 4 gallons if i split it that way, so that will last a very long time.
 
Doc, I've got to put together a grow in the next couple of weeks. Ive decided to exclude OC+ completely for the first time and go full organic. You started me thinking a little while back when you were talking about your Mg deficiency. I'm ALWAYS battling Mg deficiencies in spite of the dolomite in my mix. I'm not ready to pull the trigger on High Brix just yet, since I haven't had time to fully educate myself on the method, and I don't like to try anything new until I've researched the snot out of it.

I'll won't really be able to cook the soil, maybe 2 weeks, but not much longer, so I won't be going with a super soil. Instead I'll be using a very high quality organic, compost based soil available here in the Northeast...It's already alive when you open the bag... I'll still add some extra compost and worm castings, but I'm wondering if you would still recommend mineralizing the soil with limestone, soft rock phosphate and gypsum, and if so, would you use the same amount and 6/5/3 ratio used for High Brix? I'd love to be able to conquer my magnesium deficiencies. :high-five:

:thanks:
 
Fratdogg223 said:
Doc, I've got to put together a grow in the next couple of weeks. Ive decided to exclude OC+ completely for the first time and go full organic. You started me thinking a little while back when you were talking about your Mg deficiency. I'm ALWAYS battling Mg deficiencies in spite of the dolomite in my mix. I'm not ready to pull the trigger on High Brix just yet, since I haven't had time to fully educate myself on the method, and I don't like to try anything new until I've researched the snot out of it.

I'll won't really be able to cook the soil, maybe 2 weeks, but not much longer, so I won't be going with a super soil. Instead I'll be using a very high quality organic, compost based soil available here in the Northeast...It's already alive when you open the bag... I'll still add some extra compost and worm castings, but I'm wondering if you would still recommend mineralizing the soil with limestone, soft rock phosphate and gypsum, and if so, would you use the same amount and 6/5/3 ratio used for High Brix? I'd love to be able to conquer my magnesium deficiencies. :high-five:

:thanks:
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From what I'm learning, I'd advise you thus:

1.)definitely use the 6/5/3
2.)do not add extra compost
3.)EWC are fine
4.)You must also mineralize with something like Azomite. 2tbsp per gallon.

Have the ability to do a couple feedings throughout the grow and use microbial teas and you're basically doing what I'm doing. Your results might vary, due to using different products, but the minerals will make a huge difference as long as your soil is absolutely teeming with critters.
 
DocBud said:
From what I'm learning, I'd advise you thus:

1.)definitely use the 6/5/3
2.)do not add extra compost
3.)EWC are fine
4.)You must also mineralize with something like Azomite. 2tbsp per gallon.

Have the ability to do a couple feedings throughout the grow and use microbial teas and you're basically doing what I'm doing. Your results might vary, due to using different products, but the minerals will make a huge difference as long as your soil is absolutely teeming with critters.
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Teeming it will be! That sounds like a plan... I am curious though, why you'd exclude the extra compost? When I said the soil is compost based, that's the term they use because every product they make is, or has, living compost in it. It's actually about 15% compost. Perhaps that's enough already...it definitely retains moisture much better than standard potting mixes, but it is a potting mix nonetheless with peat and perlite.

This is the product I'm planning on using, their videos all talk about the soil food web, etc. :thumb: I've been using their worm castings and lobster compost for years.Bar Harbor - YouTubeI use Air-Pots and wanted to make sure my mix retains enough moisture to keep those beasties happy!

I was planning to add Azomite, but I'm glad you mentioned it, because I normally use only half that amount! I do also have greensand on hand if you think that would be beneficial to the mix. :thankyou: again for your advice!

:Namaste:
 
Here's another take on compost:

More is not always better. My soil test showed too much compost.....

Today we live in a post-modern world. Post modernism is a worldview that completely rejects the status quo but offers nothing concrete in place of what it so soundly rejects. If that sounds like a bunch of gibberish consider two of its crowning achievements; political correctness and “globaloney warming.”

When post-modernism looks at today’s agriculture it quickly rejects toxic pesticides, GMO’s, food irradiation, implanted hormones, and other aspects of industrialized agriculture. I also find these toxic practices utterly repulsive to good stewardship. Unfortunately it is easy for zeal to outpace knowledge. When that happens non-toxic fertilizers are lumped in with the toxic practices listed above and compost takes on demigod status as a panacea for all that’s wrong with farming today.

As a point of reference our focus when dealing with backyard market gardens is the production of nutrient-dense foods—foods with the highest level of nutrition and the best taste. In other words our focus is on destination (nutrient-density) and not on the route we travel (organics vs. biological). Our philosophy when making fertility recommendations is to create the right environment so plants can achieve their full genetic potential. The sweet spot to do this is to combine the best of both organic and biological products.

With that being said lets zoom in on compost by asking a foundational question. What is compost? Very simply compost is a tool to be used when needed. It is not the only tool but, when well made, it is a good tool. To be affective it must be part of an array of various tools. Let’s move on. What properties does compost have? This is an important question. Besides providing digested organic matter and microbial activity compost is a potent supplier of potassium and a fair source of Phosphorous. Before using compost ask yourself, "Does my soil show a need for additional potassium?" If not, you may be better to avoid it. Why? Because compost has one glaring deficiency—it is chronically short on calcium and will imbalance the calcium to potassium ratio of soils in short order. To illustrate this point I need to tie two stories together.

Before using compost ask yourself, "Does my soil show a need for additional potassium?" If not, you may be better to avoid it. Why? Because compost has one glaring deficiency—it is chronically short on calcium and will imbalance the calcium to potassium ratio of soils in short order.

Now You See it – Now You Don’t

First story. International Ag Labs is a member of the Manure Analysis Proficiency Program (MAP) so naturally they test their fair share of manure. They also have a lot of customers who compost manure and so they also regularly test compost. It is interesting that when manure is tested for NPK the analysis, depending on the type of manure, averages somewhere around a 1-1-1. That is 1% Nitrogen, 1% phosphate, and 1% potash. When they test compost on average, they also find 1-1-1. This naturally leads us to an important question for which we have no answer. If manure starts out as a 1-1-1 analysis and it is composted down to somewhere between 40-50% of the original volume, and the resulting compost analyzes at 1-1-1 then, where did all the P & K go?

It is easy to understand that a fair amount of the nitrogen can be lost to the atmosphere but what about the P and K? They don’t volatilize into the air and if the compost was not waterlogged and had some clay added at the beginning of the process very little would be lost through leaching. This is a puzzling question without a clear answer. Here is my speculation: The process of composting manure must radically change the intrinsic properties of compost such that an NPK (manure) analysis does not reflect the true P & K value of compost.

Second story. At the same time while pondering this anomaly International Ag Labs had a dealer, Duane Headings, who was questioning the validity of a different lab’s potassium reading on their soil test. Consequently he began splitting soil samples and sending half to International Ag Labs. A lot of the soils he sampled were fields or gardens that had been receiving high levels of compost for several years. The other lab results were consistently coming back showing potassium on the high side of adequate but not excessive. Test results from International Ag Labs couldn’t be more striking: On the Morgan test the potassium levels were through the roof. In fact many samples showed more potassium available than calcium. This obvious discrepancy lead to a phone call from Duane and they began comparing notes.
The Bottom Line Is This

Compost, in spite of it’s seemingly low NPK analysis, is a very powerful supplier of potassium. They also learned that not all soil tests can pick up potassium equally—especially if it is being supplied through compost.

With this information in hand they began looking closely at gardens and market gardens that had high levels of compost applied over several years. They consistently found the same pattern: very high potassium, generally high levels of phosphorous and extremely low levels of available calcium. They then asked these same gardeners how their garden was doing. The answers were telling: A lot of bug pressure – It used to be much better – Really poor tasting food – Very low brix levels.

This research lead International Ag Labs to promulgate two new quality indicators based off their soil tests: the calcium-potassium ratio and the calcium-phosphorous ratio. Both should be around 18:1. They have found that if the calcium to potassium ratio is narrow, say at 3:1 or less it is a sure indicator that the garden will not be producing high brix foods until the ratio is widened. Gardens with narrow ratios can still produce abundantly but the food will not be nutrient-dense and the flavor will leave a lot to be desired. While Dr. Reams did not specifically give this ratio he did teach the principle and it is from his desired levels that these ratios are derived.

Interestingly, Dr. Albrecht was quite familiar with this concept and wrote about it. His insight can be found in volume 3 of the Albrecht Papers on page 20. I quote:

The significant truth that brings soil fertility into control of the composition of our food, and therefore our health, comes out of the facts that in soils under construction by the limited climatic forces, or those with a wide calcium-potassium ratio, proteinaceous and mineral-rich crops and foods as well as carbonaceous ones are possible, and that in soils under destruction by excessive climate forces, or those with a narrow calcium-potassium ratio, protein production is not so common while production mainly of carbohydrates by crops is almost universal.

In the paragraphs following Dr. Albrecht goes on to show that soils with a richer supply of calcium also produce foods with greater minerals, more proteins, and ultimately much better health to the consumers.

Compost is a big word that covers a lot of ground. It is quite evocative and consequently there are so many voices and “experts” that its use and application can be downright confusing. Misconceptions abound and as a result feel compelled to put compost in its place. A prime example is a quote from The Rodale Book of Composting – Easy Methods for Every Gardener. Copyright 1992. On page 218 it says: “Apply at least ½ inch to 3 inches of well-finished compost over your garden each year. There is little danger of burning due to overuse, as is the case with chemical fertilizers.” And on page 219, "Your garden will thrive if you give it liberal amounts of compost.” Remember the earlier rant about compost taking on demigod status in the land of post modernism? Well here it is.

In defense of the book it seems to be a great primer on small scale composting and it is filled with valuable information and encouragement to be proactive. It is not the intent to denigrate - but rather, to take issue only with the rates of application and the “more is generally better” philosophy of compost use. With that being said, lets look at several misconceptions people have regarding compost and a counterbalancing truth.

Misconception: It is virtually impossible to over apply compost because compost is not high analysis or burning.
Truth: Compost is a very potent supplier of potassium and can very quickly imbalance a soil's calcium to potassium ratio resulting in a decline of nutrient density.

Misconception: Compost should be applied regularly.
Truth: Compost should be applied when the soil needs it.

Misconception: Compost is really all an organic gardener needs.
Truth: Soil needs what it needs—not just what compost supplies.

Misconception: Compost is far superior to all other fertilizers and soil amendments.
Truth: Compost is a specific tool for a specific job. Other tools are also required to bring a soil to full remineralization.

Since the focus is on producing foods of the highest nutrient density i.e. destination, and not on the route to take i.e. being organic, accusations have been made of being against compost. This is not true. Compost has a place, but only when it is needed. Here are a few applications of compost where its’ use really excels.
What’s Good About Compost?

1) Compost recycles nutrients back into the carbon cycle and food chain.

2) Compost is excellent when combined with rock powders because it assists in digesting them.

3) Compost can be used as a valuable source of P & K to replace the need to purchase expensive commercial fertilizers. I suggest using 3-4 tons per acre if this is the goal.

4) Compost is extremely valuable for jumpstarting a poor soil when combined with other needed minerals.
Too Much Compost In The Garden!

Steven and Julie See live in Beggs Oklahoma. Two years ago they wanted to grow a garden producing nutrient-dense foods for their family of seven so they selected 1,000 square feet for a new garden spot. A local neighbor, Joe Esposito, strongly suggested that before they apply anything they should get their soil tested by International Ag Labs and follow the recommendations, which is what they did.

The results came back pretty dismal; very low Humus, pH, calcium to magnesium ratio, and nitrogen; extremely low calcium, phosphorous and soil conductivity; soil tending toward anaerobic; even the potassium was low. This is typical Oklahoma poverty soil. They were rather discouraged by the lab results until they were told, “This is the perfect soil to grow a high brix garden because there are no extremes—all we have to do is put back what is missing and the soil will respond extremely well. You will be amazed.” The had a custom blender put together the exact recipe and ship it to them. For 1,000 square feet they needed 128 lbs. of product to be broadcast over their garden composed of soft rock phosphate, limestone, selective commercial fertilizers, microbial inoculants, and trace minerals. They also used nutrient drenches and foliar sprays during the growing season.

…While the addition of the compost was an overall benefit and helped you in a lot of ways it also imbalanced your potassium level and ratios. Do not add any more compost or it will be to the long-term detriment of growing nutrient-dense produce…

The results were phenomenal yields, better tasting foods, and more tomatoes than they knew what to do with. Julie reported that she canned 150 quarts of tomatoes, had plenty of tomatoes for fresh eating, and even gave away a lot of tomatoes to friends and family all from 12 tomato plants.

The next year when they got their subsequent soil report they were quite pleased to see all the progress the soil made but one element just didn’t seem correct. Potassium had risen from 81 lbs. per acre to 435 per acre. It should have been somewhere under 200 lbs. according to the nutrients in the broadcast. They immediately called Julie and asked “How much compost or manure did you add to your garden?” The answer: “Quite a lot. We have horses and a supply of fish waste. We compost the horse manure with sawdust and fish waste and added this to the garden along with the broadcast you sent.” They replied that they could clearly see it in the soil report and ended the conversation with a strong warning: While the addition of the compost was an overall benefit and helped you in a lot of ways it also imbalanced your potassium level and ratios. Do not add any more compost or it will be to the long-term detriment of growing nutrient-dense produce.

Julie assured them that no more compost would be added till it was called for on the soil test which is indicated by a dropping potassium level. Incidentally the garden soil had made such impressive progress on its levels of nutrient availability that it only required 37 lbs. of fertilizers and soil amendments to be applied on the second year. She also reported that previously they could not thinking of walking anywhere on their farm (garden included) when it was muddy but now they could easily walk in their garden because the mud does not stick to their boots anymore. This is one of the beauties of Oklahoma soils—while they many times start out at the lowest level of fertility they are also about the fastest soils anywhere to respond to a remineralization program.
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HerbFarma said:
I can also feel d learning curve steepening. Gr8 info ::namaste::
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Learning how to grow weed.....and food. That's my kind of learning!!!!
 
good read doc
 
Hey Doc, I finally have enough money to pick up all of the ingredients and the base soils. Ive never made a soil like this before but after researching alot and reading your thread. I have a good understanding of how some ingredients are beneficial for the soil but not all of them.
I will be going to the hydro shop this weekend and I will be ordering the rest of the ingredients online, It wont be for a few months until I start growing so I want to get everything prepared. I cant decide whether to use Roots organic potting soil or another soil because I dont want it to be infested with mites but I dont mind treating the soil either.
Here is a list of the ingredients ill be picking up, is there anything else at all that I need or anything I should leave out? Im not sure on how much alfala meal and kelp meal I should add to the mix or if I have have a good ratio of organic ingredients, so any help is really appreciated. I am a beginner but im very ambitious, I dont want to cut any corners and after seeing your pics of frosty rock hard nugzz, it gets me motivated to do the same and it would be a dream to have results like yours because the shit I got now, well lets just say it doesnt compare at all lol, and even if i do get kush which is rare, it aint ever grown right and its always overpriced.
btw, which teas should I use to water the plants? do i need an RO sytem or is distilled water good enough?

Heres my updated list.

Base Soil:
2 bags Roots Organic

Organic Ingredients:
8 cups organic worm castings (100% pure)
4 cups organic biodynamic compost. (Bu's Blend or mango mulch)
1.5 Bone meal
1.5 High P (low N) bat guano
1.5 Jersey Greensand
1.0 Epsom Salt
.5 cup Blood Meal
.5 Dolomite lime
.5 Gypsum
.5 Azomite
.25 Pyrogrow
1 Tbs. powdered Humic acid
Kelp Meal
Alfalfa Meal

Additives:
SnowStorm Ultra
Gravity
Purple Max
Blackstrap molasses
Bud Candy

Kelp Meal (foliar/tea)
Alfalfa Tea
Guano Tea
Worm Tea
Compost Tea
Pyrogro (mineral tea)

Gnat Ingredients: treat with RO
Crab shell meal (chitlin)
Neem cake meal
Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth
Beneficial Predatory Nematodes

:peace:
 
Indicannabis said:
Hey Doc, I finally have enough money to pick up all of the ingredients and the base soils. Ive never made a soil like this before but after researching alot and reading your thread. I have a good understanding of how some ingredients are beneficial for the soil but not all of them.
I will be going to the hydro shop this weekend and I will be ordering the rest of the ingredients online, It wont be for a few months until I start growing so I want to get everything prepared. I cant decide whether to use Roots organic potting soil or another soil because I dont want it to be infested with mites but I dont mind treating the soil either.
Here is a list of the ingredients ill be picking up, is there anything else at all that I need or anything I should leave out? Im not sure on how much alfala meal and kelp meal I should add to the mix or if I have have a good ratio of organic ingredients, so any help is really appreciated. I am a beginner but im very ambitious, I dont want to cut any corners and after seeing your pics of frosty rock hard nugzz, it gets me motivated to do the same and it would be a dream to have results like yours because the shit I got now, well lets just say it doesnt compare at all lol, and even if i do get kush which is rare, it aint ever grown right and its always overpriced.
btw, which teas should I use to water the plants? do i need an RO sytem or is distilled water good enough?

Heres my updated list.

Base Soil:
2 bags Roots Organic

Organic Ingredients:
8 cups organic worm castings (100% pure)
4 cups organic biodynamic compost. (Bu's Blend or mango mulch)
1.5 Bone meal
1.5 High P (low N) bat guano
1.5 Jersey Greensand
1.0 Epsom Salt
.5 cup Blood Meal
.5 Dolomite lime
.5 Gypsum
.5 Azomite
.25 Pyrogrow
1 Tbs. powdered Humic acid
Kelp Meal
Alfalfa Meal

Additives:
SnowStorm Ultra
Gravity
Purple Max
Blackstrap molasses
Bud Candy

Kelp Meal (foliar/tea)
Alfalfa Tea
Guano Tea
Worm Tea
Compost Tea
Pyrogro (mineral tea)

Gnat Ingredients: treat with RO
Crab shell meal (chitlin)
Neem cake meal
Food Grade Diatomaceous Earth
Beneficial Predatory Nematodes

:peace:
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Lose the following:
Gravity
Purple Max
Bud Candy (what the hell is this anyways, epsom salt and sugar water?)

Compost and/or Worm tea is fine for watering.


That soil mix will grow some very nice plants! Use it only in the bottom 1/2 to 1/3 of the pots. You won't need to feed too much.....

Make an alfalfa tea by adding alfalfa to the tea when it's brewing, same with guano. Just go easy on it.

You'll have some nice results if you keep your environment in check.
 
Hey doc whats wrong with the gravity? or is it just not needed to get denser nugs?
 
gittergreen said:
Hey doc whats wrong with the gravity? or is it just not needed to get denser nugs?
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I don't think it's needed. With the snowstorm and purple max, you're adding lots of plant growth regulators. I don't know that you need all that, especially with the soil, which will produce some dense, fat nugs. (my recipe :cheertwo: )

The Snow Storm is adequate!
 
whats the highest ml you can go on the snow storm 10ml and also when mixing teas with high phos bat guano 1 10 1 and using snow storm not at same time of course how many tbs of the guano would you use per gallon? Sorry for the 20 questions your first edition
Docbud's Cannabis connoisseur grow manual has not arrived on shelves yet. lol I wish!
thanks!
 
gittergreen said:
whats the highest ml you can go on the snow storm 10ml and also when mixing teas with high phos bat guano 1 10 1 and using snow storm not at same time of course how many tbs of the guano would you use per gallon? Sorry for the 20 questions your first edition
Docbud's Cannabis connoisseur grow manual has not arrived on shelves yet. lol I wish!
thanks!
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My 2 cents. I've used Snow Storm Ultra twice.......my buds got more snowy. Other than that I saw no difference.
 
Thanks for the info, im excited to start but I know I have to be patient. Only reason I added Gravity and PurpleMaxx is because the guy at the hydro shop gave me free bottles with the snowstorm, but thats why I asked, Ill leave them out and maybe try them on another plant and compare. As for the budcandy, ive seen growers using it for supersoil in the flowering phase to feed the plants and increase flavor. But I guess its not necessary for my soil if ill be watering with teas right?
 
Indicannabis said:
Thanks for the info, im excited to start but I know I have to be patient. Only reason I added Gravity and PurpleMaxx is because the guy at the hydro shop gave me free bottles with the snowstorm, but thats why I asked, Ill leave them out and maybe try them on another plant and compare. As for the budcandy, ive seen growers using it for supersoil in the flowering phase to feed the plants and increase flavor. But I guess its not necessary for my soil if ill be watering with teas right?
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I can't speak for Doc Bud, but I think his answer would be yes on the teas.
 
gittergreen said:
whats the highest ml you can go on the snow storm 10ml and also when mixing teas with high phos bat guano 1 10 1 and using snow storm not at same time of course how many tbs of the guano would you use per gallon? Sorry for the 20 questions your first edition
Docbud's Cannabis connoisseur grow manual has not arrived on shelves yet. lol I wish!
thanks!
Click to expand...

I always start at 5ml/gal with the snowstorm, and then increase it to 10 ml when stretch is over and buds are forming.

When mixing a tea, always think in terms of how many plants you're watering. If you're going to water 10 plants and you want all 10 to get some nutrition from the guano, I'd use 20 to 40 tbsp of guano depending on the size of the plants and their containers.

Depending on what kind of tea and how strong you're brewing it, brew more than enough. This type of soil needs microbial action to really do it's thing.

Try top dressing ONCE with the following:

1/2 cup high calcium limestone
1/3 cup Soft Rock Phosphate
1/4 cup gyspsum.

(dont use this whole amount on each plant, you might need to mix up more. Maybe a quarter cup per 3 gallon pot.)

Mix these all together and sprinkle on the top of the pots and water in with tea only. This will mineralize your soil and raise the pH a bit, and also make your soil residents very happy.

This is exactly what I did with the OG's on this journal. The addition of the rock powders was key. It killed all the gnats and cleared up a magnesium deficiency.

Just remember that this soil is designed to feed the plant from start to finish. You won't have to feed much at all. Kelp meal in the tea a couple times, maybe one guano brew. That's all you're gonna need unless you're in very small containers, which I do not recommend.
 
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