Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Kicknitup1]

I think terpenes are more water soluble than oil. You could just steam them out of the buds without hurting the cannabinoids before decarb. But you would then have to figure out how to get them out of the water and into the oil without destroying them. Also, with them comes the chlorophyll. Just thinking random out loud.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Sorry guys, been a hectic weekend and today is Church of the NFL so today is a no go

I'll make pretty pictures tomorrow for the crew

Also, head cheeses, do we want a public drop box for the files ???? Or I can also do a private one a few can have access to

Let me know

 

[Scientific]

Also, head cheeses, do we want a public drop box for the files ???? Or I can also do a private one a few can have access to

I have been following this thread for a while now because it's a subject of interest, but I haven't gotten much out of it. It seems like there's been lots of chatter, but not much real information

As I've said before, it has kind of looked like key information is only being shared between a select few(?) This post would seem to confirm that.

If everything isn't going to be shared, I'm gonna just drop off the thread. No hard feelings, but standing outside the clubhouse doors grows tedious...

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

I have been following this thread for a while now because it's a subject of interest, but I haven't gotten much out of it. It seems like there's been lots of chatter, but not much real information

As I've said before, it has kind of looked like key information is only being shared between a select few(?) This post would seem to confirm that.

If everything isn't going to be shared, I'm gonna just drop off the thread. No hard feelings, but standing outside the clubhouse doors grows tedious...

No I'm sharing it, was wondering if the Excell files wanted to be shared for anyone to use and edit

All I'm doing is making em purty

Everything has been posted here, these are Excell files , or final ones, canyon has done

Not one bit if info has not been public or discussed behind the scenes....

All been public bro

 

[Bucudinkydow]

I think terpenes are more water soluble than oil. You could just steam them out of the buds without hurting the cannabinoids before decarb. But you would then have to figure out how to get them out of the water and into the oil without destroying them. Also, with them comes the chlorophyll. Just thinking random out loud.

Steam fractional distillation is one of the commercial extraction methods for terpenes. As you say, reclamation without detriment with home available processes would be questionable and most likely impossible. FWIW, I have some information and recent positive experience with terpene isolates I'd be glad to share if there's interest. I feel I've been off topic and possibly interrupted the agenda here as well as a sister thread and don't want to be guilty a second time.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Steam fractional distillation is one of the commercial extraction methods for terpenes. As you say, reclamation without detriment with home available processes would be questionable and most likely impossible. FWIW, I have some information and recent positive experience with terpene isolates I'd be glad to share if there's interest. I feel I've been off topic and possibly interrupted the agenda here as well as a sister thread and don't want to be guilty a second time.

I think we all would love to see your info bud

 

[Scientific]

Re: Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

No I'm sharing it, was wondering if the Excell files wanted to be shared for anyone to use and edit

All I'm doing is making em purty

Everything has been posted here, these are Excell files , or final ones, canyon has done

Not one bit if info has not been public or discussed behind the scenes....

All been public bro

OK, thanks for clarifying. Not to be critical, but I have been reading this discussion for quite a while now and really haven't learned very much. There have been over 700 posts in this discussion and it still feels like it's in the planning phase...

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Lots of issue happened during testing when kicken traveled 2000 miles to do it
Tcheck was bad
Oven wasnt stable
Early testing at lab was delayed due to equip updates

So the full spectrum of tests didn't happen, so it's been a bit of piecing the info together

I think the final files, comparisons on spreadsheets I'll get posted, maybe now, but soon

They actually have $200 of free tests due to the agency's delays, so next round d will be more efficient

 

[Scientific]

Lots of issue happened during testing when kicken traveled 2000 miles to do it
Tcheck was bad
Oven wasnt stable
Early testing at lab was delayed due to equip updates

So the full spectrum of tests didn't happen, so it's been a bit of piecing the info together

I think the final files, comparisons on spreadsheets I'll get posted, maybe now, but soon

They actually have $200 of free tests due to the agency's delays, so next round d will be more efficient

Thanks again for clarifying, Scorpio. Enquiring minds want to know!

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Ok the Purty Pics


Im sure Canyon or Kickin can explain as needed

Rock and Roll

 

[Scientific]

Thanks! Any chance of scaling up that second image? (I think there's an option for that in the photo selection process.)

 

[Scientific]

> Im sure Canyon or Kickin can explain as needed

If someone could give the big picture, that would be great. Here are some questions I have.

• What was the goal?
• What was the method?
• What do you think these results tell you?
• What questions remain?
• Anything definitely learned that we didn't know before?
• Any best practices? Things to avoid?

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Thanks! Any chance of scaling up that second image? (I think there's an option for that in the photo selection process.)

See if thats better

If Not Ill work on it later

FOOTBALL time

 

[Oldbear]

Steam fractional distillation is one of the commercial extraction methods for terpenes. As you say, reclamation without detriment with home available processes would be questionable and most likely impossible. FWIW, I have some information and recent positive experience with terpene isolates I'd be glad to share if there's interest. I feel I've been off topic and possibly interrupted the agenda here as well as a sister thread and don't want to be guilty a second time.

Im pretty sure there was a PARDON issued for that

Some months back I was playing with some old dried up bud. First I did a bud wash. Then I warmed it up in the microwave.

The result was a significant load of terpene smells in the air which mdw didnt enjoy. It was almost like an allergic reaction for her.

The relevance here is that is seems rather easy to extract terpenes from the plant using moisture.

My science brain hypothesizes that a simple condensing coil would be sufficient to create a water based concentrate with lots of terpenes in it. I can think of lots of uses for that.

Another option available is to buy terpene isolates or terpene blends which match different strains. Its an easy and cheap way to test the effects of a terpene boost, almost to the point where trying to retain them via different curing and extraction methods isnt worth the effort at some point.

I know I would like to know more about your experiences with terpene isolates.

 

[Canyon]

Well, I was not going to bring it up but, the NFL has caused delays in the past.

I have not used Drop box in years so I don't know what the options are. Are they two way?

This is my thinking. If we limit access to a core group, we start losing the open source aspect of the thread.

From the beginning I have been struggling with what data to collect and how to present it. What I sent Scorpio are executable Excel files. You can drop some data in and it fills in some blank spots. So far it is just the essentials. We can add more info like time, temp later.

With what we have now we can compare tests without shuffling a lot of paper.

I have no problem with everyone having the files and playing around with them. The problem of how to know what version and what changes have been made is a concern though. I added a version number on the last file I sent Scorpio. I would like to get ideas from everyone, add those into the charts and publish newer versions rather than having members make changes and pass them around. This way we can keep the newest files available and anyone who can open the files can use them, modify them, and add their own strains or whatever for their use.

I feel the need to editorialize a little.
"Decoding The Holy Grail", it sounds a little elusive, doesn't it. We have lots of viewers. Adding what information they want to offer to what we have should start showing benefits.

The mushroom factor concerns me. First, I have been reluctant to ask members to send me there e-mail address in a PM so I can send you a file. Second, I am somewhat reluctant to offer up my address to everyone on the site. The best I am willing to offer is this. If you have been active on this thread and want to have the main file before Scorpio has it available, send me a PM with your e-mail address.

One project I want to work on over the next few days is making a terpene chart of all that I can find listed and add the atomic weight and boiling points. There is going to be a pattern there as far as retention is concerned.

 

[Scientific]

The mushroom factor concerns me. First, I have been reluctant to ask members to send me there e-mail address in a PM so I can send you a file. Second, I am somewhat reluctant to offer up my address to everyone on the site. The best I am willing to offer is this. If you have been active on this thread and want to have the main file before Scorpio has it available, send me a PM with your e-mail address.

A Google docs spreadsheet would make all this a lot simpler. As I mentioned before, I have used those on other collaborative projects and it worked great.

 

[Bucudinkydow]

Thanx for the interest, fellows. This is probably going to be classified as a TMI post so I'll give those with limited patience a little tease and say I'm enamored enough with these additives that I'm not going to be too concerned with terpene retention in my cannabis processing any longer.

I'm one of the biggest cynics you'll ever encounter but often an inquisitive mind will be the overruling factor. So is the case in this instance but I'm still a bit anal about putting unknown chemicals in my body. So I did a good bit of research and would like to share what I've found.

I'm a big fan of Dr Ethan Russo. While I don't think he's considered the "father" of the entourage effect, he's been a very instrumental proponent and researcher of the theory. In a recent interview, I was a little disillusioned when he rather emphatically came down against terpene isolates. Being pressed a bit further, he confessed it wasn't so much the terpenes themselves that garnered his concerns, but the unknown contaminants that they contained.

Purity ratings of terpene isolates range from 95-99%. There's no legal mandate for manufacturers to identify that remaining 1-5% mystery ingredient, a definite point of concern. Excluding synthesized terpenes, isolates can be derived from three sources; cannabis, various plant matter and byproducts of petroleum distillation. Contamination from the residue of petroleum distillation is a little alarming and something I'd prefer to steer clear of. Unfortunately, manufacturers aren't required to divulge the source their product and some liberties taken by some of the marketers can be a bit misleading. In fact, I ran across one brand that touted their product was organic even though it was derived from a petroleum product. Their rationale was crude oil was organic! Additionally, beware of Chinese imports. They are typically the lowest purity rating and who knows what these contaminates are or from what the isolates are derived.

While I initially thought I'd prefer an isolate extracted from cannabis, I can find no conflicting evidence that terpenes are terpenes are terpenes! When I started sourcing some cannabis extracts, the price convinced me to consider alternative products. Check Blue River Terpenes site. At $60-150 for .25ml, that figures out to $15-20 per DROP and up! Thanx but I'll pass.

My quest turned quickly to finding a domestic source for a product derived from plant matter other than cannabis. A lot of companies are marketing a product from True Terpene. I think this company wholesales to these various marketers and gives them some type of licensing agreement for their product, but you can also buy directly from True Terpene at a fairly reasonable price.

In spite of this rather alarming warning on their site, after some research I did place an order with them:

DANGER

Flammable liquid and vapor. Store in a well-ventilated place. Keep cool. Store locked up. Keep away from heat / sparks / open flames / hot surfaces. No smoking. Keep container tightly closed. Ground / bond container and receiving equipment. Use explosion-proof electrical / ventilating / lighting / equipment. Use only non-sparking tools. Take precautionary measures against static discharge. In case of fire: Use dry sand, dry chemical or alcohol-resistant foam for extinction. May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways. Causes skin irritation and may cause an allergic skin reaction. Avoid breathing dust / fume / gas / mist / vapours / spray. Wash skin thoroughly after handling. Contaminated work clothing should not be allowed out of the workplace. Avoid release to the environment. Wear protective gloves / eye protection / face protection. IF SWALLOWED: Immediately call a POISON CENTER or doctor / physician. IF ON SKIN (or hair): Remove / Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water / shower. Do NOT induce vomiting. If skin irritation or rash occurs: Get medical advice / attention. Take off contaminated clothing and wash before reuse. Harmful to aquatic life. Dispose of contents / container to an approved waste disposal plant.

A bit unsettling, huh?!? They go to great lengths in their FAQ section in an attempt to reassure safety. Still a bit dubious but Ben Cassidy, the COO, says it's a legal MSDS requirement for bulk amounts. Also, he contends the 1% impurity in their product is simply an alternate terpene due to less than 100% refraction efficiency of the steam distillation process. They also have a GRAS certification for oral ingestion or topical use. Inhalation, however, doesn't have a comparable blessing.

Gotta take a break for a while. I'll let this digest and post later on my experience with my initial order of Limonene and Alpha-Pinene.

 

[Scientific]

DANGER
Flammable liquid and vapor. Store in a well-ventilated place. Keep cool. Store locked up. Keep away from heat / sparks / open flames / hot surfaces. No smoking. Keep container tightly closed. Ground / bond container and receiving equipment. Use explosion-proof electrical / ventilating / lighting / equipment. Use only non-sparking tools. Take precautionary measures against static discharge. In case of fire: Use dry sand, dry chemical or alcohol-resistant foam for extinction. May be fatal if swallowed and enters airways. Causes skin irritation and may cause an allergic skin reaction. Avoid breathing dust / fume / gas / mist / vapours / spray. Wash skin thoroughly after handling. Contaminated work clothing should not be allowed out of the workplace. Avoid release to the environment. Wear protective gloves / eye protection / face protection. IF SWALLOWED: Immediately call a POISON CENTER or doctor / physician. IF ON SKIN (or hair): Remove / Take off immediately all contaminated clothing. Rinse skin with water / shower. Do NOT induce vomiting. If skin irritation or rash occurs: Get medical advice / attention. Take off contaminated clothing and wash before reuse. Harmful to aquatic life. Dispose of contents / container to an approved waste disposal plant.

That's from the legal department, no doubt.

I think Chinese products are much more of a concern.

But supplements in the US are pretty much unregulated, so who knows what you're getting?

Probably the best bet is to by high purity terpenes from a known-good chemical supplier (=$$$).

 

[Canyon]

A Google docs spreadsheet would make all this a lot simpler. As I mentioned before, I have used those on other collaborative projects and it worked great.

Thanks, let's see what Scorpio does. I quit my day job 20 years ago and I am close to 70. If we go with Google, I am going to need some hand holding.

 

[Scientific]

Thanks, let's see what Scorpio does. I quit my day job 20 years ago and I am close to 70. If we go with Google, I am going to need some hand holding.

If you follow the link to the site, you'll see that it really easy to set up a shared spreadsheet.