Calling all martians

nachooo said:
Hi again from Spain...
Regarding the issue of compact red party cfls...
I have seen two kinds of this bulbs in my country, one is the twisted one that appears in the pics above..it gives a red-orange color..this bulb has the twisted glass painted.
The other one that i think is from a french factory (label is in french) and the code product is EC215RE, this cfl is 15 watts and has a tipical compact cfl rectangular shape.This last bulb is more common here, but it gives a differnt light althought it says red light in its label, It gives a red light, but with some purple in it, more blueish to understand better...This bulb has a white glass, not coated... So i think that in some way the phosphor formulation here doesnt need a coated glass cause it gives better light lets say..internally... but..there is aproblem with the blueish issue...Anyway the light that gives i think will be good to make clones or use it as veg light cause the balance between red and blue in it seems to my eyes a good spectrum to grow. link to the product
MD-TRADING - Eclairage à économie d'énergie
As you see in the link there are black light cfls on sale too, as nobody speaks about them here, I assume that they dont give any far red light, and this feature occurs only if the bulb is incandescent..am i all right?
Just my two cents..

Sorry about my english again

Nacho
Click to expand...

I think floro black lights give off ultra violet and some blue wavelength but no far red, the only sources of 730nm seem to be inc. black lights, inc. regular bulbs and 730nm LED...

for simple rauber you should be able to use any reddish cfl regardless of whether there is any blue leakage since it is always on during blue signal, but for advanced you would need a red source with no blue...
 
bizz said:
I think floro black lights give off ultra violet and some blue wavelength but no far red, the only sources of 730nm seem to be inc. black lights, inc. regular bulbs and 730nm LED...

for simple rauber you should be able to use any reddish cfl regardless of whether there is any blue leakage since it is always on during blue signal, but for advanced you would need a red source with no blue...
Click to expand...

Well said...
 
yo dog

Thinking things over, I've decided on this plan...

These philips BLB give off too much blue light which I suspect is the problem. Going to pick up a zilla black light bulb from pet store after work to see if it has any blue light, if i see no blue light from the zilla bulb then i will try those in my setup... if i see blue then i return the zilla bulb and put my set up on 12/12... maybe look for some high temp paint to mask the philips BLB better to keep blue in...

12/12 will feel a little like defeat, but atleast I learned some and will get to try rauber substitution method by just replacing BLB with clear inc's... also red LED should give trichs a nice tweak over just HPS...

for 12/12 I was thinking, red LED for 12 hours on and HPS for 10 hours with red on for an hour before and after... then later add clear inc's when flowers coming in...

or would I be better off doing red LED for 30min before and after HPS, then maybe a few 30 min red LED night breaks?
 
Well, I have been looking at Zilla bulbs site, and i have come to this halogen bulbs..
Zilla | Products Halogen Bulb

I have a couple of quetions to you...if possible..
Are the black light halogens they offer better than black light clasical old bulbs?
Are the night red halogens a usefull alternative to red leds in pad?
What do you think in general of this halogens? I think that a cooltube with the halogens in it...maybe is a easier setup...

Thanks again...
 
nachooo said:
Well, I have been looking at Zilla bulbs site, and i have come to this halogen bulbs..
Zilla | Products Halogen Bulb

I have a couple of quetions to you...if possible..
Are the black light halogens they offer better than black light clasical old bulbs?
Are the night red halogens a usefull alternative to red leds in pad?
What do you think in general of this halogens? I think that a cooltube with the halogens in it...maybe is a easier setup...

Thanks again...
Click to expand...

those halogen bulbs look interesting, i would think they are better than classic inc BLB

the night red halogen will produce 660 & 730, you can use them but they will change time factor compared to red LED and red CFL due to the 730

i just checked zilla BLB at pet store, holding up to bright sky I saw no light coming thru bulb, held up philips BLB at hardware store and i could clearly see defined shapes from the sky light in the store, they are totally different products as far as i can tell($4 vs $9), i'd imagine the zilla gives off no blue light as this would probably kill or hurt your animals by giving them blue light 24/7, will check with my blue light filter at home tonight...
 
added 2 more red cfl, now just need to work on better placement

sr1_3.jpg
 
dogsnova said:
Sweet... I need to check out those zilla BLB bulbs..
Click to expand...

the zilla bulbs are much better

pet store by my work had a ton, near home i had trouble finding a store with 5... 1 store had 3, 1 had none, and another had several but no returns on bulbs, i got 3 from store where i can return them and i got 2 from the store with no returns... just my luck the 2 bulbs from that store, 1 fizzles after powering on for 5 seconds and the other was actually cracked inside... hopefully i can exchange...

the 3 that work... 2 75w have small amounts of blue compared to the philips bulb, 1 100w seems to have more blue but it is coming from a spot on side near base which isnt good since i was going to put that one in middle on top without reflector, so gonna return that one... prob just get another 75w...

the 2 75w zilla's put out much less blue light and in general much less visible light... for instance the philips bulbs throw enough visible light on panda film so i can see shade region from reflector's shadow, with the zilla's i can barely see the shadow on full dimmer... philips i could see shadow on 1/3 dimmer...
 
so i tied the girls back last night and this morning under HPS i was inspecting some of the newer growth from the last 2 weeks

i found a few mutated leaves and a couple spots were it looked like calyx's got pulled apart, half at the node the other bit halfway between the node and the leaf... i had seen more of this before previously.... when i started out with BLB on full... then dimmer very low and then BLB got unplugged... so with BLB on full maybe too much blue was contaminating the area... maybe dimmer on too low wasnt the issue that caused reveg like i thought, maybe it was blue light from BLB, cause i am still seeing alittle of this growth now after 2 weeks of dimmer in middle, with my current 5/19 time cycle, i would think i am getting enough dark... and my problem would then be blue light contamination... also most of the mutant bits are on branches getting the focused BLB light, which means those bits getting lots of blue...

so i'll give these zilla bulbs a go... the girls look ready to pop IMO, so i am hopefull if the blue issue is contained then they should be popping soon... ei yi yi, yi yi, yi yi... lol
 
found this post from sal on TY, i underlined part relating to my situation

Blue Light contamination, from light leaks into the flowering area or even light leaks from the ends of Red Fluorescent tubes, can phototrigger Cannabis's Blue Cryptochrome photoreceptors that that trigger the genes for vegetative morphology. This Blue light trigger may be at a very low levels under continuous illumination, lower than shorter duration "Nightbreak" treatments used to intentionally trigger a Short Night (~Long Day, LD) reponce in many crops.

One example example of such a contamination problem was with using Red Fluorescent sign tubes, since there was a short clear gap in the end of the pigmented glass. The pigmented glass is used to filter out the Blue/Green low pressure Mercury emission lines from the lamps light output, leaving only Red and various amounts of Far Red depending on the phosphor used. As in other experiments, the plants closest to the Blue light source showed the most tendency towards vegetative growth (and wouldn't flower), and plants closest to the Blue contamination source were progressively more vegetative and less floral, while the plants were progessively more floral and less vegetative as they got farther away from the contaminated end of the tubes (the regular Red filtered end).

An excellent tool for checking for light leaks, is to use a Blue filter to look for the leaks, since average human eyes are roughly twice as sensitive to Red light as to Blue light, and average human eyes are roughly four times as sensitive to Green light as Blue light. Also average human pupils constrict in responce to Red and Green light, but average human pupils do not constrict to Blue Light, which literally blinds you with the glare of Red (and Green) light while you look for Blue (which looks dimmer anyways).

A Blue filter allows you to visually scan for even faint Blue light sources in a garden otherwise lit by Red and/or Far Red light during the "Martian Method" Red Night treatment.
 
zilla makes 2 kinds of regular inc black light bulbs, one has a silicone exterior coating that is supposed to make it shatter proof to protect pets... visible light from these bulbs is more red than blue when compared to zilla's regular inc black light bulbs without the silicone exterior coating and they seem to be darker in general, at some angles looking thru blue filter i see no blue light at all on full power

the silicone exterior coating bulbs seem to be sold in blister wrap packaging where as the ones without the silicone exterior coating are sold in paper boxes

almost all bulbs seem to have a spot that gives off more visible light than rest of bulb, most have spot on base which doesnt seem too bad altho reflector directs this visible light forward, i returned 1 bulb that had spot on top of bulb... by turning dimmer down rather low and directing reflectors up and over plants but where filaments are still visible to plants, i figure with 5 sources of weak 730nm i might be ok and the small amount of visible light isnt being directed towards plants anymore...

a few days of this and if no results its def time for 12/12...
 
Yes something is definitely wrong here.. Running a 5/19 PAD schedule even with the small amount of blue light contamination that might be coming from those BLB bulbs, you should easily be seeing at a min 1/2 veg 1/2 flower type buds.. IMO for the amount of time flowering so far you should have some kind of popcorn buds... Something is causing a much bigger blue light contamination then those BLB bulbs IMO..

I no this is a stupid question, but I have to ask....Are you 100% sure there is none/no light leaks in your area during your PAD on time?

If YES 100% is the answer to the above question...Here is something else to consider.. Look at those red led's (when on) through your blue cellophane and see if you can see any sign of blue light.. I know this sound weird but I remember sal talking to Mother in one of his post about cheep china red led's having blue light contamination.. Now remember this is coming from my memory on my part LOL.. But based on what he was telling Mother, I would think it's worth a look.. If you want to look for the post, it's toward the end of one of her (two) treads.. I think the post is in the second tread, but ya it could be in the first one.. Sorry...
 
Hi again...
I have a couple of questions to dogsnova..concerning the rauber`s substitution method

In a before post, you wrote:

"The funny thing is... IMO using a big HID setup 400w,600w,1,000w. Those big HID's are better served using rauber's substitution method. 6 hours of the HID and then 6 hours of a mixture of clear incandescent light bulbs and some 27k cfl's for a 6hr HPS/6hr inc/cfl/12 SID type of flowering. I like to make the clear inc/cfl mixture aprox a 100w less then the HID bulb I'm using.. That method is a lot easer to setup IMO and I guarantee this will give you better results then using your HPS alone for the full 12 hours of a normal 12/12 flower. Again just something to think about.."

But in the manual chapter 10, says that the incandescent 6 hours, must be before the 6 hours HID... I am confused at this point...

Also i think the manual doesnt speak about adding a cfl light to the incandescent...
How much wattage of incandescent are needed if a cfl light is added...I mean wich ratio cfl-incandescent in relation with the HID wattage?

Again..thank you very much for your time

Nacho
 
nachooo said:
But in the manual chapter 10, says that the incandescent 6 hours, must be before the 6 hours HID... I am confused at this point...

Also i think the manual doesnt speak about adding a cfl light to the incandescent...
How much wattage of incandescent are needed if a cfl light is added...I mean wich ratio cfl-incandescent in relation with the HID wattage?

Again..thank you very much for your time

Nacho
Click to expand...
Yes the inc's/cfl's in my rauber substitution setup come on first. I think I just typed it wrong.. Sorry my bad..

No the manual doesn't talk about adding cfl's. I just found my strain worked better when I added 27k cfl's into the mix.. I added them without asking...LOL... But it turns out Sal has confirmed my findings and by adding cfl's to the inc's in a rauber's substitution setup is better.. So it turns out my testing on this was correct..I love it when that happens..

Sal recommends using the same amount of inc's/cfl wattage as the HID wattage that is being used..

The inc/cfl wattage in my setup is 200w of GE revel Halogen inc's and 100w of 27k cfl's witch = 300w total. The HID wattage is a 400w HPS. My 300w inc/cfl/400w HPS setup gives my flowers a much better taste and many more trich's. The yield IMO is also a little better (better calyx to leaf ratio). Plus this setup finishes my flowers one week faster. And this inc's/cfl setup is using 100w less per hour (at least for the first 6 hours) then I would be using if I was using the 400w HPS the fisrt 6 hrs.. i.e. 400w the full 12 hrs.. So this setup is a win win IMO...

As far as how much wattage of inc's and how much wattage of cfl's to use. I think it depends on the strain.. You need to play around a little. The minimum inc/cfl wattage I would recommend is 100w less then your HID setup. But feel free to use watt for watt if you want.. i.e. 400w inc/cfl and 400w HPS

I hope this explains how I use rauber's substitution method a little better for ya..
 
Sal wanted me to post this email response also..

My question....

"Sal I can't seem to get full PAD flowering over at my uncle house ether.. Not sure what's up with that setup.. We CAN get it to flower but the tops look like they are half flower/half veg. But it's just the tops of the flowers only and the buds just below the canopy look fine.. That's why I thought the blue coming through the BLB bulbs were causing it.. "

His answer....

The tops being half flower/half veg, and the buds just below the canopy looking fine is actually a trend I do recognize, but it keeps slipping my mind when I type all this stuff down. It's the surface affect of the spectrum compared to the sub-canopy affect, which is notable normal budding as the trichomes inside buds that develope below the surface rather than on the outter surface. So yes this trend is always there, it just gets exaggerated a bit more with Far Red affects using PAD. (It indicates that more PAD time is needed to turn the tips to full bud. The 4/20 finishes off the tips.)

All of which is related to something that keeps bugging me about what I'm seeing with Bizz's grow, it looks like the top of his grow space is coverred in black plastic film. For best results, we need to stress the use of a total aluminium type reflecting enclosure. We take a lot for granted that may need to be stressed more in the next edition of the PAD Manual. Any holes for light to leak out causes this slow down the clock effect on the Far Red's performance. Otherwise more Far Red must be used. Off the top of my head, I think Rauber stated that "uniform volumetric light distribution" is assumed or at least an "Ideal" target. I think Bizz is using Panda and it also bugs me that there is so little Far Red 700nm to 800nm refection data on so many reflection products.

Take Care. Sal.
 
this thing is 850nm, but i wonder how much 730nm it puts out?

Amazon: YY Trade Inc - IR100 - 98 LED Indoor/Outdoor Long Range 300ft IR Illuminator With Free 3A 12VDC Adaptor (value:$20)
 
Thanks Dognova for your quick asnwer.
Do you think can i use this setup for the rauber`s substitution method?
first 6 hours 2 incandescents bulbs of 40 watts each one plus a britelux sylvania 250 watss MH(which is more like a CMH with more red than a normal MH)
second 6 hours..the same 250 MH lamp plus 72 watts of red leds (1 watt each one) 640 nm, 40 lumens per watt each one

Thanks again
Im most concerned about avoid streching and quality of product than to safe money in the electricity bill at this moment...

Nacho
 

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