Calling all martians

[Bandit420]

Thanks Bizz! There's alot of talk about this light vs that light but I've always taken the approach of try everything and if you throw enough pasta at the wall, some is bound to stick.
I dont know if LEDS are there yet as far as a true economical replacement for hid but I believe they "fill in the blanks" that hid does not have and when the two are blended it produces a plant growing power that can only be topped by the Sun.

 

[bizz]

I dont know if LEDS are there yet as far as a true economical replacement for hid but I believe they "fill in the blanks" that hid does not have and when the two are blended it produces a plant growing power that can only be topped by the Sun.

Big wattage LED units are definitely not cheap! But think about this. I know a grower in northern california who has 6 400w MH for veg. That's 2400w not including fans. From what I have seen I would think 6 90w blue ufo(actually 100w with 3 little fans) would equal if not out perform the 6 400w MH for veg and with no heat... less water needed which means less nutrients too... I havent considered larger wattage units yet as most are tri/quad band.

So 2400w vs 600w @ top tier pricing, $0.47 per kwh, if you are running 24/7... its 2.4kw x 24h = 57.6kwh per day vs 0.6kw x 24h = 14.4kwh x 30 days per month = 1782kwh per month vs 432kwh, @$0.47 $837 vs $203 ? is this right?

so in 1 month, hypothetically if 6 90w blue UFO's equal the VEG output of 6 400w MH, then the energy saving in this area would be over $600 in first month... if blue UFO available for $150 then 6 x $150 = $900, they would pay for themselves in 2 months...

this isnt even taking into consideration heat issues since he said his setup was running 72'F in winter/january, so I dont know what he is gonna do come summer when temps are above 90... so money saved on air cooling equipment and energy costs to run multiple inline fans...

all good theory I suppose, but what do I know...

also for flower, I dont think LED compete economically, altho they compete when you compare GPW, however PAD is supposed to improve yield... my set up isnt true PAD, so it wont prove LED PAD, but I think it should be interesting results...

 

[dogsnova]

"saturation signal strength", so at some point for a given grow space, there is an amount of 730nm where higher wattage levels would not have an effect whatsoever?

Does this "saturation signal strength" apply to 660nm and blue as well?

I believe there is a saturation point for all three spectrums IMO..Were that is I have know clue..As far as having higher wattage and having no effect..No.. I think it can only give so much effect so too much wattage is probably a waste.

What does time related mean? Does this mean .5/.5 might not be optimial for my setup/strain and maybe I should be doing .7/.3(more red=shorter night) or .3/.7(more far red=longer night)?

I'm sure he meant to say timing related. So you can over shoot your SID target by having too much 730nm or having your red/blue/730nm timing off..
No,No.. Don't do anything but as close to .5/.5 schedule as you can get..Trust me..

Interesting, so it sounds like running black lights during HPS would lower time factor and increase ripening time, I might do this altho I would prefer clear inc's during HPS since same wattage... but thats even more gear...

When Sal refers to 730nm as in (incandescent form).. He is talking about clear inc's for the day and black inc's for the night.. He refers to them both as 730nm. He just uses the clear for the day and black for the night.. I guess you could run the black inc's on during the day.. But just remember clear inc's will do much better for the day time 730nm.... Now LED's on the other hand is were the magic could happen.. NO heat and you would use the same 730nm led's for both the day and the PAD night 730nm.. That's most of the trick right there.. Now tell me were I can get a LED 730nm only unit, or hell even just some 5w screw in bulb ones...LOL...I can't find them I've tried, but who knows maybe soon I will look on the bay and BAM there they will be......I doubt it though..

I think most my 1,2,3 finger leaves were started when plants were under 1 blue UFO, 2 red UFO, with 300w black light up full, running PAD. Seems like since moving plants into HPS chamber they started growing 5 finger leaves in most places, altho a few spots on edges have some odd looking singleton growth. My timers are set same, so maybe it has to do with time factor of different spectrums (HPS vs 452nm)or too much 730 before since I have dimmer now, or maybe just the phase of plant growth cycle. Seems like PAD and single spectrum LED light really bring out the extremes in gene expression and thus as the plants cycle thru the different phases drastically different looking morphology displays. Just my 3 week old theory...

Ya keep an eye on the leaf morphology.. Let's see what your setup dose..

I'm wondering if I go to 19/5 or 20/4 and growth slows down, does that just mean the plant stops exhibiting signs of growth but is still maturing properly, so if I went to 19/5 and after week things slowed down and I went back to 18/6, would the plant have lost any flower time or would it still be on schedule for harvest? Would I have lost a week or just have less overall growth? Because plant height could become an issue for me so freezing them with 19/5 or 20/4 has a certain appeal.

My uncle and I started one crop out with a 4/20 schedule, My uncle did it for like 5 weeks of flower time. It made small pop corn buds that ya were starting to ripen.. But when he moved his PAD lighting up to (I think he went) 17.5/6.5 and BAM the buds started growing like wild.. But since it had already been about 7 weeks at that point into the flower he just chopped them at like 9.5 weeks and NO they weren't done like they should of been..

So changing the timing schedule made it just like it would of been if he had changed his normal HPS HID timing.. i.e.. If he would of started a flower with a 10/14 type of HID schedule and then after 6 weeks ramped up the HID to 12/12 schedule, it would of given him similar results IMO..

Now as for a PAD setup. Having the adjustability of the 730nm spectrum. One could have done this type of flowering method and IMO got the speed back up after the stretch phase.

So starting out SLOW might be a good trick.. Based on my experience with a 4/20 start it defiantly could be very useful in terms of making the plants short and phat..LOL.... But instead of doing it for like 6 weeks such as my uncle did. The grower would only do this 4/20 type of flowering for the stretch phase.. So ya there is something to starting out with a PAD 4/20 flowering schedule and moving up the timing schedule, and of course back down for ripping. But you need to know your 730 pretty good IMO.. Because 730 would play a big role in speeding back up the flowering time.. This is even more advanced PAD stuff...And you thought it couldn't get any more complex...LOL

How would you know the plants Photo neutral DNA? Trial and error? Are some strain more or less inclined or is it individual plant specific? Are 6 week strain more/less than 10 week strain?

Whats the benefical effect?

I think this is a typo..I think he is saying (a detrimental effect). I think it was what I refer to as a brain fart..LOL We shall see if he responds..

I hoped 18/6 would hit 12/12 and I wouldnt have to mess around, without having my head totally wrapped around the PAD concepts I'm nervous to make changes...

Ya IMO I would say leave you PAD timing were it's at.. If anything go down with the blue (on time) if things aren't progressing to your liking..

In the dark no way, Your doing a fine job..

 

[dogsnova]

Ya I would like to no Sal's opinion of using all blue LED's for veg..

 

[bizz]

some pics of 3 finger leaves, the middle fingers are huge!

 

[dogsnova]

How far along into flower are those girls? We need see some white hairs in those pic's. Take the pic's under white light during your HPS (on time)..I need to see those girls up close...LOL

 

[bizz]

How far along into flower are those girls? We need see some white hairs in those pic's. Take the pic's under white light during your HPS (on time)..I need to see those girls up close...LOL

still no hairs

lots of fat looking calyx's... internode development looks like another 1 or 2 need to pop out on the tops to form the cola's, HPS is on during morning time, I'll try to take some pics tomorrow...

tonight will be 3 weeks...

they were in the all LED/black light set up for 1.5 weeks and now 1.5 in HPS/LED, I wonder if switching set ups stalls things...

looking at pics from last run it looks like I started seeing hairs/bud formations at end of 3rd week and during 4th week... cold temps...

yesterday when I checked on room after work, the black lights had come unplugged from the timer, I think this might have happened on sunday but I wasnt in there on monday during blacklights so dont know, potentially the girls were not getting any 730nm for 48+ hours, if I understand things, this would be like I gave them 14/10 the last 2 days... so that might set bud formation back a bit...

I expect to see things soon, if I dont see hairs by end week 4 I might go to 12/12...

 

[dogsnova]

still no hairs

lots of fat looking calyx's... internode development looks like another 1 or 2 need to pop out on the tops to form the cola's, HPS is on during morning time, I'll try to take some pics tomorrow...

tonight will be 3 weeks......

Ok.... Maybe your strain will need a little more 730nm intensity then I'm used to..So IMO turn up your dimmer switch a little more..

they were in the all LED/black light set up for 1.5 weeks and now 1.5 in HPS/LED, I wonder if switching set ups stalls things......

Ya.. I would think the LED/black light setup might have been slower then the HPS/LED, not sure though...

looking at pics from last run it looks like I started seeing hairs/bud formations at end of 3rd week and during 4th week... cold temps......

Is this a 10+ week flowering strain?

yesterday when I checked on room after work, the black lights had come unplugged from the timer, I think this might have happened on sunday but I wasnt in there on monday during blacklights so dont know, potentially the girls were not getting any 730nm for 48+ hours, if I understand things, this would be like I gave them 14/10 the last 2 days... so that might set bud formation back a bit......

Yes SID is slower then the 730nm would be..This will also cause some flowering delay..But you got an adjustable 730nm setup .. You can speed things up..I think it will take a couple of days to notice anything but ya start ramping up your 730nm..

I expect to see things soon, if I dont see hairs by end week 4 I might go to 12/12...

Ya sal talked about some growers starting out 12/12 until the flowering started to kick in, then switching to a PAD setup..

 

[bizz]

Turned dimmer up a bit...

The strain is OG Headband, its supposed to be 8-9 weeks, but I went 10 last run and still didnt see any amber trichs, mosty cloudy with some clear. I've heard of people going 8, 9 and even 11 weeks... Both friends I know who have grown it have seen flowering progress faster than I did as far as bud development earlier, but they still saw 4+ weeks of stretch... I figured it was the cold temps of my attic during dec/jan in chilly california that was causing them to flower slower, but it might be my nutes or diff bulbs... ?? I've actually tinkered a bit with my nutes compared to last run so the lighting setup/timing are not the only variable to change.

I actually have a couple of mutated looking leaves that I was originally thinking was 660/730 related but now I'm wondering if the nutes could be at fault, I'll try to get some pics when HPS is on. Everything else looks good which made me think it was spectrum related, but not really sure.

 

[bizz]

 

[bizz]

Looking thru girls, I found 2 calyx on twisted mutated bits that had white hairs sticking out as the twisting action opened them up, tried to photo but they came out blurry, so I know the hairs are in there, they just need a lil mo time...

 

[dogsnova]

Looking thru girls, I found 2 calyx on twisted mutated bits that had white hairs sticking out as the twisting action opened them up, tried to photo but they came out blurry, so I know the hairs are in there, they just need a lil mo time...

Sweet on the white hair visual.. Now let's make sure we keep the Black lights plugged in and we should start to see some action soon....

I personally try to get in the room once a day..I know it's hard sometimes..

The girls look like they will throw some nice flowers for ya based on the pic's I'm seeing.. Can't wait for some bud porn from ya....

 

[bizz]

Sweet on the white hair visual.. Now let's make sure we keep the Black lights plugged in and we should start to see some action soon....

even tho I saw them on mutated bits, it was a relief to see some hairs

I personally try to get in the room once a day..I know it's hard sometimes..

Normally, I like to check at least once daily also, with this martian setup I've been checking multiple times a day since the red light provides enough light to do a check when I get home from work and then again before bed, then I check in morning when HPS is on... I really like being able to monitor 24/7.

I only check during blacklight half hour to adjust dimmer or if I am in there during red to far red switch over... So even tho I checked 3 times on monday it just wasnt during blacklight... on tuesday, I got home during blacklight on and randomly checked on things, noticed no blacklights... on sunday I know they were on and I had moved the power strip a little such that the plug was still in the timer but had apparentlly lost contact with power pins...

The girls look like they will throw some nice flowers for ya based on the pic's I'm seeing.. Can't wait for some bud porn from ya....

I hope you are right...

Any idea about the mutated claw leaves? Red/far red related or nute def/too much sodium?

Everything else looks good except for a few odd looking bits here and there, seems like deficiency or too much sodium would show everywhere...

 

[dogsnova]

Any idea about the mutated claw leaves? Red/far red related or nute def/too much sodium?...

I think it's red/far red and timing related. I have gotten that effect if my timing is off just a little. But it's the red/far red timing that's off... Not the HPS time, unless your over 7hrs of HPS on time (and your not).. That's why I say it's kind of both red/far red and timing.. If you only got a little mutation then your timing was only off just a little IMO.. More then likely it was a few different things, so it's hard to pin point it to one thing..

If you can afford the extra electricity, I might think about running the black lights during the day time for 5 to 7 days just to help get the speed (plants flowering clock) back on track.. Maybe just try it for a week and see what the girls look like. If it's too hot in the area then bail on that idea...LOL You also could cycle the 730 every 1/2hr during your HPS time...Just a thought..

 

[bizz]

I started using the dimmer 1 week ago yesterday. Seems like mutations started after that. Prior to that I was seeing some stretching that did not seem normal so it definitely seems like there is a sweet spot on the 730 for pre flower. I might turn it up a bit more...

I might do the day time thing, heat shouldnt be a prob for now...

 

[dogsnova]

Yes the 730 sweet spot IMO is based on the amount of 660 wattage used..Too much of one or the other spectrum during PAD will causes some weird stuff to happen...Not so much with too much red.. Although too much red 660 and not enough 730 would cause a slow flowering reaction..So ya there is a sweet spot for sure..


Ya the heat with the black lights need to be watched closely IMO..

I'm thinking that starting out with a 4/20 schedule is looking more like the correct way to do this....Although I guess the grower should know were the PAD timing 12/12 sweet spot is. So when the timing is moved up the grower doesn't go past the PAD timing 12/12 sweet spot...And of course the timing needs to go back down to 4/20 to ripen.... But re-setting those timers three deferent times sucks..LOL

 

[bizz]

Left black lights on for whole HPS today, seems like it might have caused some extra stretch... maybe better to cycle, but since I have 18 time settings now, I can only do 2 more... not enough to cycle during HPS...

You mentioned before selecting best blacklights from several... are the coating that much different? I notice one of my blacklights has a more blue tint compared to the other 3 which look more purple. Do you think any blue light could be coming from black light bulb?

 

[dogsnova]

Black lights bulbs do have some differences in the glass color from bulb to bulb.. Not sure how much..


When I was talking about selecting the best bulb. I was talking about red party cfl's, not black light bulbs.. I have seen a little difference in the black inc's bulbs, The difference in the glass color for (black inc bulbs) is supposed to change the timing slightly from bulb to bulb.

If the bulb is letting blue light through.. Your buds will look real leafy and stretchy.
your flowers will look like they are 1/2 flowering and 1/2 growing.. You will be able to clearly see this effect..IMO

If the black inc bulbs are letting blue light through. There is a way for us to see it. You use 3D glasses.. I bought two pairs of the red/blue cellophane lens ones and cut them in half right at the nose. Then I taped them back together so each pair of glasses has ether blue cellophane lenses or red cellophane lenses.. I use the blue lens ones to look for blue light contamination in the flower room. I use the red lens pair to see how red the lighting setup is.. I use the blue pair more because blue light contamination is a no,no with a PAD lighting setup.

The blue light contamination that I'm seeing with black inc's is right at the base, were the glass has very little color.. But unless the girls are right up against that part of the bulb I personally have not see any affect from the lack of color at the base of the bulbs..

 

[bizz]

I decided the stretch was good stretch... so I turned BLB on during HPS again today... bumped dimmer up too...

The bulb I saw blue tint from was angled so I was looking thru side/base. I noticed that when I looked headon at that bulb it looked more purple. I still want to replace it tho...

I cant freaking believe this... a while back, I read some posts from you and others about 3d glasses and such, I thought you all were nuts... now I'm trying to think where I can go buy some... LOL

Where do you get them? I think h.depot has 4" or 6" colored lenses for recessed lighting, wonder if they are close enough to 3d, or is 3d even ideal?

 

[dogsnova]

Ya I had to buy my 3D glasses on the Internet somewhere for $2 each..LOL..I would think blue cellophane by itself will work if you can find it..

Sal also talked about using some other stuff related to film, but I can't seem
to recall what it was.. I know he talked about it Mothers first tread. But ya seeing blue light contamination from PAD lighting is important..