featherdusta
New Member
Nitrofication spelt it wrong bloody spell checka thing not nitrogation ooooops 
Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes
- Thread starter SweetSue
- Start date
Atulip
New Member
Well I don't compost, worm castings can't be found locally so they're a bit pricey until I swing for a worm farm.
I wanted to diversify from the standard mix and coco has better aeration than peat, and nutrient holding capacity. I can get mushroom compost locally, unsure about incorporating it. And I'm sure I'm not 100% organic, although my bag of perlite does have an OMRI label on it. Same for vermiculite. Trying to cut costs and maintenence mostly(currently they're bottom watered with a dehumidifier drain hose self filling it. So I can neglect my plants for a 2 weeks+ at a time(depending on humidity) and they still grow happily)
Therm-O-Rock West, Inc. | Organic Materials Review Institute
I wanted to diversify from the standard mix and coco has better aeration than peat, and nutrient holding capacity. I can get mushroom compost locally, unsure about incorporating it. And I'm sure I'm not 100% organic, although my bag of perlite does have an OMRI label on it. Same for vermiculite. Trying to cut costs and maintenence mostly(currently they're bottom watered with a dehumidifier drain hose self filling it. So I can neglect my plants for a 2 weeks+ at a time(depending on humidity) and they still grow happily)
Therm-O-Rock West, Inc. | Organic Materials Review Institute
Crushed Lava rock, folks. Cheaper and longer lasting than vermiculite or perlite. More nooks and crannies too.
I like coco over peat, though I've settled on a blend of the two. Well, I think I settled lol. Peat is way more hydrophobic once dry.
Atulip, you said you wanted more aeration. What pots are you using? Indoor or out? I mix different for each. Aeration requirements are very different for an outdoor fabric pot vs indoor plastic, for instance.
Your amendment list looks like my inventory list, lol. Happy to see gypsum on there. It's under rated IMHO. Calcium and sulfur with out buffering PH? Yes please! Just picked up 400lbs of it
Hells yes on the mushroom compost!
I like coco over peat, though I've settled on a blend of the two. Well, I think I settled lol. Peat is way more hydrophobic once dry.
Atulip, you said you wanted more aeration. What pots are you using? Indoor or out? I mix different for each. Aeration requirements are very different for an outdoor fabric pot vs indoor plastic, for instance.
Your amendment list looks like my inventory list, lol. Happy to see gypsum on there. It's under rated IMHO. Calcium and sulfur with out buffering PH? Yes please! Just picked up 400lbs of it
Hells yes on the mushroom compost!
Atulip
New Member
Fabric pots, indoors. DIY smart pots made with DeWitt pro landscape fabric. It's more of a plastic like feeling than the smart pot felt. They're mostly square shape, but 8"x8"x12-14"(tall design for more soil, 3.5-4gals) drainage is similar to smart pots but roots can't actually grow through(and into my perlite bed). Feels like too much moisture halfway down, and a bit too much soil compaction. Might be the design also. They're packed together to make better use of space, but the sides aren't exposed to air as much, so they may not be performing as well.
Gotta look up lava rocks. If I can find em locally that'll be great. Only thing I can seem to find is perlite and vermiculite.
I can get mushroom compost for like $4 a 40lb bag, if I can cut it half and half with worm castings that'd save a forture. I've got bins and supplies to make a nice big worm tray but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
Ammendments was everything I could scrape together locally, it's all so rediculously cheap too, I was buying the premixed Coots stuff from buildasoil. I tried to go for alfalfa as my main ammendment since I use General organics(alfalfa based) on Coots soil and it just does so well. Alfalfa over blood meal also should help keep from burning if it's too hot also, and gets a bit more K in there. It should be fairly balanced as far as NPK, the other stuff I'm less sure of, just loaded a little of everything together.
Soil won't be cooked really, reammend weekly(or with each harvest(perpetual setup)) and it'll spend 1-2weeks in the pot while seedlings are started in plugs or a light seedling mix made up right in the pots.
Jiffy plugs are doing great. My soil got a bit hot and It looks like I stunted my previous seedlings directly in Coots soil ammended at 3cups per cu ft and 1/4 cup seabird guano. Decided to just scratch the Coots kit when I started finding so much stuff locally. (Did most my soil shopping before in the off season)
Gotta look up lava rocks. If I can find em locally that'll be great. Only thing I can seem to find is perlite and vermiculite.
I can get mushroom compost for like $4 a 40lb bag, if I can cut it half and half with worm castings that'd save a forture. I've got bins and supplies to make a nice big worm tray but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
Ammendments was everything I could scrape together locally, it's all so rediculously cheap too, I was buying the premixed Coots stuff from buildasoil. I tried to go for alfalfa as my main ammendment since I use General organics(alfalfa based) on Coots soil and it just does so well. Alfalfa over blood meal also should help keep from burning if it's too hot also, and gets a bit more K in there. It should be fairly balanced as far as NPK, the other stuff I'm less sure of, just loaded a little of everything together.
Soil won't be cooked really, reammend weekly(or with each harvest(perpetual setup)) and it'll spend 1-2weeks in the pot while seedlings are started in plugs or a light seedling mix made up right in the pots.
Jiffy plugs are doing great. My soil got a bit hot and It looks like I stunted my previous seedlings directly in Coots soil ammended at 3cups per cu ft and 1/4 cup seabird guano. Decided to just scratch the Coots kit when I started finding so much stuff locally. (Did most my soil shopping before in the off season)
Lava rock is available at hardware stores and big box stores. They sell it in bags as a landscape/zeroscape decoration. You can also get it by the yard at a landscape supply place, usually. Comes in red or black. The rock is too large, so I have to crush it. A steel tub and dropping a sledge on it works great.
The reason I go through that is verm/perl degrades in a (relative to lava rock) short time, and is usually cheaper. Expanded clay balls are expensive and float to the top, so does pumice. Lava rock stays in place and gives a great purchase for roots because of the nooks created by the volcanic gasses during formation. Also, it's a great enviro for the micros.
The reason I go through that is verm/perl degrades in a (relative to lava rock) short time, and is usually cheaper. Expanded clay balls are expensive and float to the top, so does pumice. Lava rock stays in place and gives a great purchase for roots because of the nooks created by the volcanic gasses during formation. Also, it's a great enviro for the micros.
Atulip
New Member
How's the aeration compared to perlite? Found em at lowes for $3.5/.5 cu ft and I don't mind a little smashing.
If I could use it primarily that'd be great. Maybe do like a 15% peat, 15% coco, 35% lava rock, 10% vermiculite, 25% ewc/shroom compost blend. That should lean heavy on the aeration with good moisture&nutrient retention still.
If I could use it primarily that'd be great. Maybe do like a 15% peat, 15% coco, 35% lava rock, 10% vermiculite, 25% ewc/shroom compost blend. That should lean heavy on the aeration with good moisture&nutrient retention still.
I don't SWICK (or whatever, not sure if that's right even), so you'll have to experiment with it. That sounds to me like way too much, but I can't really judge. For my soil I started with a standard base mix of 1 part peat/coco, 1 part worm castings and 1 part lava rock. 33% rock was way too much for outdoor fabric pots, and a little too much for indoor. I'm down to about 15% indoor mix and 10% outdoor...for fabric pots.
Biochar may be an interesting addition to a system like yours. It's wicking and holds just the right amount of moisture. Maybe make a 50/50 blend of rock and char, then blend that in to your base mix.
What ever happens, be sure to pass that knowledge along to others!
Biochar may be an interesting addition to a system like yours. It's wicking and holds just the right amount of moisture. Maybe make a 50/50 blend of rock and char, then blend that in to your base mix.
What ever happens, be sure to pass that knowledge along to others!
Robert Celt
New Member
Good morning Atulip 
I don't see anything "wrong" with your ingredient list, you are using a greater variety than I do but that is not a bad thing. I also don't see why you would need to "feed" but that may be in the amounts you are using and the preparation of your mix or maybe even pot size.
Last year I built my soil "by the seat of my pant" so to speak. I had good results but there was no science behind what I used.
Here is the recipe I intend to use this year, based on science and cation exchange:
3.8 cuft bale of peat
545g of agricultural lime (NOT dolomitic)
3.2Kg Epsom salts
4kg Kelp meal
3kg Alfalfa meal
1kg Bone meal
500g Blood meal
1kg Diatomaceous earth
2 cuft Perlite
3kg Worm castings
1 cup ground eggshell
3kg used coffee grounds
Preparation notes:
Compressed peat is NOT easy to wet out. I now use ground whole Aloe plant mixed with water to wet out my peat. Aloe is a natural surfactant and helps water penetrate the peat fibers. (its also a good rooting hormone)
First break up the peat, add the lime and Epsom salts, then add the water/Aloe mixture and mix well until it is uniform in texture and wetness.
After the peat, lime and Epsom salts are well mixed, add the rest of your ingredients and mix well. Let cook for 2 weeks or more, until the soil is cool to the touch.
The science behind this recipe:
This is based on the cation exchange of peat (no other base) and the Ca:Mg:K ratios of soil that have been researched and developed over the last 100 years. It was found that the best producing soils have a Ca:Mg:K ratio of approximately 65% calcium, 15% magnesium, 12% potassium, and the remaining percentage being available to the other required nutrients.
By mixing the lime and Epsom salts in first, we lock up the calcium and magnesium sites in the proper ratios (approx 65% and 15%) The amounts of the remaining amendments are of less importance, providing we ere on the side of TOO much.
The reason we can do this is due to the way plants and organic soils react to one another. In an organic soil, so long as we have the nutrients in the soil the plant will regulate what it needs, when it needs it.
For example: when a plant requires potassium, it will exude malic acid. The malic acid creates a cation exchange site that will be filled by potassium which the plant can then access. Think of it as an array of lockers at a bus depot and the malic acid is the key to the locker.
Why I chose some of the amendments I did:
The main one here that some may not understand is the DE. DE is a form of silicon that is more readily available to our plants than other sources and is relatively cheap compared to "pre-prepared" silicon sources. The silicon is used by our plants to grow stronger stems and stalks.
Some other tips and tricks:
Pot size - most agree that pots should be approx 1 gallon for every month of growth (or 1 liter per week). This is a good rule of thumb, but pot shape can make a big difference. We have been conditioned to think of pots that are taller than they are wide. For many plants, including cannabis, this is not the most efficient design for optimum growth. Cannabis will root deep, but for water, not for nutrients. Most of the nutrients used by our favorite plant, are taken up in the top 8" or so of soil. Wider shallower pots will grow bigger plants. Do a search for Jorge Cervantes or some of the other videos that showcase monster outdoor plants. You will notice that these giants are all in wide shallow beds or grow bags.
Hope this helps all who are interested and fell free to ask if there is more you would like to know
I don't see anything "wrong" with your ingredient list, you are using a greater variety than I do but that is not a bad thing. I also don't see why you would need to "feed" but that may be in the amounts you are using and the preparation of your mix or maybe even pot size.
Last year I built my soil "by the seat of my pant" so to speak. I had good results but there was no science behind what I used.
Here is the recipe I intend to use this year, based on science and cation exchange:
3.8 cuft bale of peat
545g of agricultural lime (NOT dolomitic)
3.2Kg Epsom salts
4kg Kelp meal
3kg Alfalfa meal
1kg Bone meal
500g Blood meal
1kg Diatomaceous earth
2 cuft Perlite
3kg Worm castings
1 cup ground eggshell
3kg used coffee grounds
Preparation notes:
Compressed peat is NOT easy to wet out. I now use ground whole Aloe plant mixed with water to wet out my peat. Aloe is a natural surfactant and helps water penetrate the peat fibers. (its also a good rooting hormone)
First break up the peat, add the lime and Epsom salts, then add the water/Aloe mixture and mix well until it is uniform in texture and wetness.
After the peat, lime and Epsom salts are well mixed, add the rest of your ingredients and mix well. Let cook for 2 weeks or more, until the soil is cool to the touch.
The science behind this recipe:
This is based on the cation exchange of peat (no other base) and the Ca:Mg:K ratios of soil that have been researched and developed over the last 100 years. It was found that the best producing soils have a Ca:Mg:K ratio of approximately 65% calcium, 15% magnesium, 12% potassium, and the remaining percentage being available to the other required nutrients.
By mixing the lime and Epsom salts in first, we lock up the calcium and magnesium sites in the proper ratios (approx 65% and 15%) The amounts of the remaining amendments are of less importance, providing we ere on the side of TOO much.
The reason we can do this is due to the way plants and organic soils react to one another. In an organic soil, so long as we have the nutrients in the soil the plant will regulate what it needs, when it needs it.
For example: when a plant requires potassium, it will exude malic acid. The malic acid creates a cation exchange site that will be filled by potassium which the plant can then access. Think of it as an array of lockers at a bus depot and the malic acid is the key to the locker.
Why I chose some of the amendments I did:
The main one here that some may not understand is the DE. DE is a form of silicon that is more readily available to our plants than other sources and is relatively cheap compared to "pre-prepared" silicon sources. The silicon is used by our plants to grow stronger stems and stalks.
Some other tips and tricks:
Pot size - most agree that pots should be approx 1 gallon for every month of growth (or 1 liter per week). This is a good rule of thumb, but pot shape can make a big difference. We have been conditioned to think of pots that are taller than they are wide. For many plants, including cannabis, this is not the most efficient design for optimum growth. Cannabis will root deep, but for water, not for nutrients. Most of the nutrients used by our favorite plant, are taken up in the top 8" or so of soil. Wider shallower pots will grow bigger plants. Do a search for Jorge Cervantes or some of the other videos that showcase monster outdoor plants. You will notice that these giants are all in wide shallow beds or grow bags.
Hope this helps all who are interested and fell free to ask if there is more you would like to know
Atulip
New Member
If 33% was too much for you indoors, around there is probably what I need for a swick system for extra aeration. The peat/compost/vermiculite all aide in wicking up the water for the bottom. Just have to make sure I get enough aeration but can still wick up to the top of a taller pot like I have now.
Biochar looks great l, from Wikipedia at least lol. Ill see if I can find and add it in my soil mix. Might need to test different base mixes to see what works best on the swick system. Then test different nutrient ammendment strengths to see what works best with my mix.
Biochar looks great l, from Wikipedia at least lol. Ill see if I can find and add it in my soil mix. Might need to test different base mixes to see what works best on the swick system. Then test different nutrient ammendment strengths to see what works best with my mix.
I would like a soil recipe for seedlings and clones.
I start seeds and rooted clones in 4" pots that hold about 1qt /1 lt of soil.
I transplant them into build-a-soil cc mix based recycled soil.
My current seedling mix is too hot.
I use only water during veg.
I need about 2 quarts/liters per month of seedling soil.
Soil building ingredients on hand:
Peat
perlite
used cc-mix soil
lobster compost
worm castings
compressed coco
plus:
neem oil
TM-7 (humic)
bat guano
manure
mycorrhizal cocktails
I start seeds and rooted clones in 4" pots that hold about 1qt /1 lt of soil.
I transplant them into build-a-soil cc mix based recycled soil.
My current seedling mix is too hot.
I use only water during veg.
I need about 2 quarts/liters per month of seedling soil.
Soil building ingredients on hand:
Peat
perlite
used cc-mix soil
lobster compost
worm castings
compressed coco
plus:
neem oil
TM-7 (humic)
bat guano
manure
mycorrhizal cocktails
Atulip
New Member
I was feeding before with Coots base recipe to get more growth/yield. I've been able to give up to a 1.5x strength feeding with General Organics line before seeing any burn or n tox. Pot size was 5gal before and 4gal now, can drop height and be at 3gal. Those are actual gallons with the DIY 3-4gal pots, not "5gal is really 4gal" nursery sizes. Read about cannabis liking wider roots, but I want to incorporate more plants in a smaller space, so 8-9" wide is about as big as I can go.
Cant get everything locally and most stuff is pricey to ship, so I'm trying to incorporate everything I could get my hands on. I was going for like a 5:1 ca:mg, and a slightly higher k than n and p. Sounds like I'm on the right track. Need to chart out NPKs of everything and see where I'm at and what I can do.
Maintaining some vermiculite should keep the CEC up with dropping the peat to 15% for coco. And our ewc & shroom compost should have a nice high cec.
I'm thinking
15% peat
15% coir
30% lava rocks
10% vermiculite
15% EWC
15% mushroom compost
I'll see if I can get a hold of a few things and see how this mix looks next week. On paper so far, it's looking like a good cec, medium-high air porosity, and medium water retention. Gotta get my hands in there and feel it to know for sure though.
Thanks for bringing up cec, RC, I didn't account for it before with the peat to coco downgrade of cec for increased aeration. Getting rid of the low cec perlite for a better cec lava rocks also helps bring that back up. Thanks heirloom for that suggestion.
Cant get everything locally and most stuff is pricey to ship, so I'm trying to incorporate everything I could get my hands on. I was going for like a 5:1 ca:mg, and a slightly higher k than n and p. Sounds like I'm on the right track. Need to chart out NPKs of everything and see where I'm at and what I can do.
Maintaining some vermiculite should keep the CEC up with dropping the peat to 15% for coco. And our ewc & shroom compost should have a nice high cec.
I'm thinking
15% peat
15% coir
30% lava rocks
10% vermiculite
15% EWC
15% mushroom compost
I'll see if I can get a hold of a few things and see how this mix looks next week. On paper so far, it's looking like a good cec, medium-high air porosity, and medium water retention. Gotta get my hands in there and feel it to know for sure though.
Thanks for bringing up cec, RC, I didn't account for it before with the peat to coco downgrade of cec for increased aeration. Getting rid of the low cec perlite for a better cec lava rocks also helps bring that back up. Thanks heirloom for that suggestion.
Atulip
New Member
I'd think 40-50% peat with 20-30% perlite and 30% ewc makes a good seedling mix. More perlite if you want more aeration. Mycos may help but I haven't bought into that yet. Should be impossible to burn seedlings in that mix.
featherdusta
New Member
I found three quarters fill pot with usual medium ,my case coija perlite then i put seed pointy end up( so root will go down and turn) then sprinkle perlite over seed to emulate darkness.Mist perlite with rain water so dust disappears and moist.I found the seedlings find it much easier to move the perlite instead of moist coija,as perlite is much lighter and easy to move.This way seed is in media no transplanting required.Tap root dives down into media providing good anchorage for the ladies.Its up to u scrape away perlite replace with media or just let em be,also because of me reading this thread i was mixing media and ran out of perlite so i went to kitchen and knocked off a packet of soup mix.It has pearl barley red lentles green lentles split peas etc etc roughly same size as perlite c wat happens they retain moisture to cant hurt unless absorbs nutes hopefully if needed can release em too not sure time will tell
Ha. I was thinking the same thing.
I like the finer peat or coco for the seedlings, so a bit of sifting might be in order. A dash of kelp meal would fit in the mix nicely too, if you can get some.
Myco at will Radogast!
That conditioning is a spill over from landscaping and nursery practices. Every square foot matters in a retail enviro, so the foot print of each pot is reduced in diameter and increased in depth.
This is why I decided to rework in ground holes for this year. Instead of just a hole, I've decide to build a burmed ring 8" high about 1 foot out and around the holes. Then will fill to the top of the ring level. Ultimately a cross section of a hole will look like the cross section of a muffin.
These holes will end up with an excavated hole 20" deep and 4 feet in diameter. Then there's the 6ft diameter, 8" on top of that. Depth for water management, surface area for feeder roots. Calculating the volumes it comes to 39 cubic ft, or about 270 gallons of soil...each.
Whatcha think of them apples Celt?
Speaking of apples and building soil....
I got a load of road apples! (Horse manure)
Robert Celt
New Member
Good morning Heirloom
WELL DONE Mate
I am planning fabric pots again this year but square rather than round (both indoor and outdoor). The outdoor ones will be 3 foot square and 12" deep, but will have a deep narrow diameter hole below (like a post hole) filled with peat and stone dust to allow deep rooting for water.
Indoors the pots will be 18" square with 8" of soil allowing me about 11 gallons of soil
As for "road apples", I can get more than I would need in a life time LOL my wife's best friend boards horses and her son barrel races. I brought my old tractor home from my woodlot for the winter and will be taking it to their place this spring to move the manure pile for them, and bring a few loads home to build a large compost pile
WELL DONE Mate
I am planning fabric pots again this year but square rather than round (both indoor and outdoor). The outdoor ones will be 3 foot square and 12" deep, but will have a deep narrow diameter hole below (like a post hole) filled with peat and stone dust to allow deep rooting for water.
Indoors the pots will be 18" square with 8" of soil allowing me about 11 gallons of soil
As for "road apples", I can get more than I would need in a life time LOL my wife's best friend boards horses and her son barrel races. I brought my old tractor home from my woodlot for the winter and will be taking it to their place this spring to move the manure pile for them, and bring a few loads home to build a large compost pile
Timmo
Well-Known Member
I've been contemplating making fabric pots too, using woven weed-blocking fabric. I'm also thinking about making small starter pots out of burlap, with the idea that I get the benefits of air pruning and can just plant the whole thing into the bigger pot when it's time, minimizing transplant shock. Has anyone tried that? Burlap has a pretty loose weave, so roots shouldn't have any trouble penetrating it.
Nice Robert! I like the post hole idea. So much easier than excavating a half cubic meter or more, lol.
I've learned to hedge my bet growing outdoors and double up. So besides the planted girls I will have some 20 gal root pouches going too. I can bring them in out of freak hail storms, 3"/hr rainfall or provide shade and airflow when it's 99 degrees F, 1287% humidity and no breeze.
I used to be less enthused about the manure, but since I left So. Cal it's been impossible to find. Used to be I had 5 yards delivered for free, they just wanted it gone. Everyone around here keeps it or sells it, and they always sell out to the same people. I got lucky on the fresh egg trade deal.
I decided to give a pre-made garden mix a try. Mostly for my veggies, but I'm gonna run with it in the other garden.
What would you do with this? Have 20 yards coming tomorrow.
Holy Cow Garden Mix
I asked how much WC they used, it's 20%.
I was thinking add some peat for the acid, biochar, kelp and rock dust at the start. Dole out nitrogen as needed with Alaska fish 5-1-1, foliar with basic manure teas and humic/fulvic.
Well. What ever happens should be ready, lol. I'm better stocked than every garden store around here
Always good to see you around!
I've learned to hedge my bet growing outdoors and double up. So besides the planted girls I will have some 20 gal root pouches going too. I can bring them in out of freak hail storms, 3"/hr rainfall or provide shade and airflow when it's 99 degrees F, 1287% humidity and no breeze.
I used to be less enthused about the manure, but since I left So. Cal it's been impossible to find. Used to be I had 5 yards delivered for free, they just wanted it gone. Everyone around here keeps it or sells it, and they always sell out to the same people. I got lucky on the fresh egg trade deal.
I decided to give a pre-made garden mix a try. Mostly for my veggies, but I'm gonna run with it in the other garden.
What would you do with this? Have 20 yards coming tomorrow.
Holy Cow Garden Mix
I asked how much WC they used, it's 20%.
I was thinking add some peat for the acid, biochar, kelp and rock dust at the start. Dole out nitrogen as needed with Alaska fish 5-1-1, foliar with basic manure teas and humic/fulvic.
Well. What ever happens should be ready, lol. I'm better stocked than every garden store around here
Always good to see you around!
Hi Timmo, welcome to the site and to the discussion!
I have not tried burlap, though I suspect it will work as you are thinking. I also suspect it will be a bit messy because of the loose weave, letting finer particles fall out any time it's moved. Cow pots, peat pots etc are fairly cheap if you pony up a little and buy a quantity from a greenhouse supply company.
If you make fabric pots and are planning on transplanting out of them, I suggest you add velcro to the vertical seam, from the bottom to the top. It makes getting the root ball out WAY easier and less traumatic (for you and the plant).
Timmo
Well-Known Member
I've grown a plant in a burlap bag before and didn't have any problems with it being messy. The main advantage of burlap over peat or cow pots is that I can make them whatever shape or size I want. I'm planning to make them wider than typical starter pots, experimenting with a variety of sizes.
Velcro--excellent idea....
Velcro--excellent idea....