Autos - How Much Will Reduced Light Hours Hurt Yield?

[TorturedSoul]

Well, I guess I'll find out what kind of yield I can get under the conditions I described. I just had a peek and it appears that the "mix" auto-flower seed I tossed into a cup has cracked and the merest hint of a tap root has emerged. I'm not going to have time to mess with it this evening, but I'll add a few drops of H₂O₂ to the water for a little O₂ boost. No change to the other two (not auto-flowering strains) that I dropped at the same time - but it's still early, yet. I do have all three cups covered and placed up high, so the cats cannot wreak havoc upon them. I think.

I think I might end up with more plants than I have space/light. Whoops....

 

[dick23rk]

Oh what a problem to have lol I'm sure you will come up with some sort of training to make it work.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Oh what a problem to have

Yeah, I know, it sucks. I mean... If you have an overabundance of well-lit space, but only one plant, you can keep it in vegetative longer, root a bunch of cuttings, or both. But if you have too many plants for your space/lighting, well... I mean, they're not exactly kids, but... I've got two cats and if at some point I come to the conclusion that I'll only be able to feed one of them, which one do I shoot? Or do I just fail to shoot either one and see them both end up extremely malnourished (which is how I ended up with them, if you can imagine a couple of cats so starved and underweight - well, plus tortured in one case - that coming to live with ME was a clear step up in their lives :rolleyes3 ) .

I'd hate to turf any of my pe-- err, plants. Because that might be the... one .

 

[Greenracer192]

Thanks for that. I knew this forum would help me learn. I really was led to believe leds saved cash on bill. I was thinking of giving them a try. But my son t grow hps grows great for me. Thanks heaps. Thats a couple of hundred dollars saved.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I really was led to believe leds saved cash on bill.

Well, they can, but I look at it as an incidental benefit. I see the real benefit of LED technology as being their ability to tailor the spectrum; IOW, their ability to have specific wavelengths in the ratios/amounts that the grower - and the plants - can best use. IF that means that the grower ends up achieving the same yield with less gross watts then, yes, there would be a savings on the monthly electric bill (because less electricity is being consumed).

But it isn't so simple, IMHO. 600- and 1,000-watt HIDs (HPS/MH) have good penetration into the canopy. Not every LED panel can match this ability (I suspect that many cannot). When running big HIDs, one can go with "air-cooled" reflectors that allow the grower to attach ducting and move the bulk of their heat right out of the grow room without allowing that heated air to mix (thereby allowing for a cooler grow environment, a smaller carbon filter, et cetera). There are "insulated covers" available for many of the more popular reflectors to further help keep the heat out (of the grow area). And, of course, with the ballast being separate, it can - and should - be positioned out of the grow area. I have seen very few LED panels that offered such an "air cooled" setup (they all have fans, but 99+% of them move the grow room air through the panel instead of having duct connectors).

I have also wondered if a full spectrum has benefits, in regards to the "separate portions of the spectrum" that LED panels provide. They both obviously grow a crop, lol - but I believe the jury is still out, so to speak. COBs and other "white light solutions" seem to infer that a broader spectrum is a good thing.

Another thing to remember is that even if you can get the same production out of a lesser-wattage LED panel than you do from a given HID setup... Is it worth it, lol? If you save $10 or $20 per month, how long is the payback on your investment - if you're replacing a $250 HID setup with a $1,000 LED? Obviously, I just pulled all of those numbers out of my... hat, and you would need to consider things like bulb replacements as well. But some forethought on this particular facet of the question ("Should I switch to LED?") would seem to be helpful.

A technology that has been around for years now is ceramic metal halide (CMH). Recently, I have seen it called "LEC" (for light-emitting ceramic, maybe?), I guess due to the increasing popularity of LEDs, lol. I have read reports of 315-watt CMH setups easily outperforming 400-watt HPS ones, so that would be a more definite savings in electricity. I am not familiar with the various wattages available in CMH, but you might find something that fits your needs. If so, I would assume that the buy-in would generally be cheaper than with LED.

I am currently using LED lighting. This is my first experience of it. I am... cautiously optimistic. At this time I do not have enough experience to either wholeheartedly recommend for it or against it - but I am hopeful that I will have a decent harvest, and that I will see benefits to using it. We shall see....

 

[dick23rk]

Yeah, I know, it sucks. I mean... If you have an overabundance of well-lit space, but only one plant, you can keep it in vegetative longer, root a bunch of cuttings, or both. But if you have too many plants for your space/lighting, well... I mean, they're not exactly kids, but... I've got two cats and if at some point I come to the conclusion that I'll only be able to feed one of them, which one do I shoot? Or do I just fail to shoot either one and see them both end up extremely malnourished (which is how I ended up with them, if you can imagine a couple of cats so starved and underweight - well, plus tortured in one case - that coming to live with ME was a clear step up in their lives :rolleyes3 ) .

I'd hate to turf any of my pe-- err, plants. Because that might be the... one .

Ahh yes, the beloved 4 legged family members lol. I know what that is all about! 2 cats and a dog here that need to be cared for. I guess you could call my daughter a bit of an animal to haha I have my way and there wont be any more cats come in after these ones go.. unfortunately one of them is only about a year old, the other is 11 or 12 though.

Thanks for that. I knew this forum would help me learn. I really was led to believe leds saved cash on bill. I was thinking of giving them a try. But my son t grow hps grows great for me. Thanks heaps. Thats a couple of hundred dollars saved.

No problem, but not trying to steer you away from LED or say that they are bad.. There are lots of journals out there that are doing great with them. It's mostly a cost thing for me. I don't think they are bad by any means. It has been said (so i have read) that if you want to properly achieve and judge your grow by the 1 gram per watt ratio then it depends on the watts that are being pulled from the wall, not the equivalent rating of the lights themselves. This is how I understand it anyways but I have not done a ton of research on them either. There is a mars hydro led panel q&a thread in the 420 sponsors forum under the "420 Stores" tab at the top of the page that would have a ton of info in there, go have a look

 

[AKGrower907]

Led lights are measured by what theyre equivalent to in hid lighting. My 300w led is equivalent to a 300w hid but, the led uses 135 watts. I still get same results with led as i was using hid.

Sent from Deez Nutz

 

[Mono]

Led lights are measured by what theyre equivalent to in hid lighting. My 300w led is equivalent to a 300w hid but, the led uses 135 watts. I still get same results with led as i was using hid.

Sent from Deez Nutz

Having been using LED for a couple of months now I can comment that they don't compare in the slightest to HID lighting in my own experience - LED produces slower growth in the vegetative stage, but much more compact plants (not always a good thing). They are much cooler than HID, but not as cool as you would be led to believe...

As for flowering... for me, it's HPS all the way. Hands down even double the wattage in LED can't compare to a HPS. Even little things like the infared light put out by HPS which causes soil / coco to dry out faster allowing more frequent watering.

If it's a consistent yield, stick with the tried and tested HPS. Besides, it takes a long time in reduced electricity costs to cover the extra cost of a LED fixture. Just my 2p

 

[dick23rk]

Good hands on info to have. I guess it would all depend on the grow conditions as well, not everyone's setups are the same by any means. A big thing to me on choosing led or hid would be how much space/head room I have to work with and what the footprint of the light is going to be. I'm more about covering space and maximizing light intensity, I think this could be why I still lean more towards HID lights. Also I know I can go purchase a couple of decent 1000W HPS/MH setups for just as cheap or still cheaper than 1 led panel being equivalent to only 1 HID setup.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Led lights are measured by what theyre equivalent to in hid lighting.

That's highly debatable. I suppose it would be... equally correct... to say that CFL bulbs are "measured" by what they're equivalent to in incandescent lighting (it even says so on many of their packages ). It's what I would call "marketing speak," lol - and misleading. I've seen lots of <COUGH>optimistic<COUGH> claims by the sellers of LED products. A 300-watt panel being "equivalent" to a 1kW HPS? Sure, if that panel is capable of producing three grams per watt, lol. And there is no uniformity across the market - sometimes, not even across one manufacturer's product line (FFS!). But a watt is a watt. Although they try real hard to screw even that up... by counting the number of three-watt (class), five-watt (class), etc. diodes on a panel, multiplying that by the "class" that those diodes are, and proudly announcing that their panel that contains 80 "five-watt class diodes" is a 400 "watt" panel... even though it uses - and outputs only 160 watts and if someone were to modify it in order to actually use 400 watts (by changing the power supplies/drivers), that panel's lifetime would be measurable in seconds, lol. OtOH, some manufacturers/sellers seem to go the opposite route, and offer products which actually consume more power than the model number would suggest. <SCRATCHES HEAD> And some manufacturers/sellers offer some products that would fall under both headings, which is undoubtedly confusing to the newbies.

Of course, there are a few companies that use a little (perhaps not so) common (as it once was) sense, and designate/rate their products by the amount of watts that they consume. I am thinking specifically of Amare Technologies here - their SE350+UVB consumed around 350 watts, their SE450+UVB consumes around 450, et cetera - but there are a few other companies that do this.

My 300w led is equivalent to a 300w hid but, the led uses 135 watts. I still get same results with led as i was using hid.

I don't believe I've ever seen a 300-watt HPS (or MH, either), lol. But be that as it may... Since the generally-accepted "bar" to aim for with HID lighting is one gram per watt, does that mean that you're pulling down 300 gram (dry) harvests with your 135-watt LED panel? Or at least, IDK, 75% of that? I'd be interested in an LED panel that was capable of producing 300 grams of dried bud with only 135 watts. If it didn't cost an arm and a leg, of course.

LED produces slower growth in the vegetative stage, but much more compact plants (not always a good thing).

That might (most likely does) have a lot to do with the specific spectrum that the mixture of diodes on your panel(s) produces, rather than a blanket truism for all LED panels.

As for flowering... for me, it's HPS all the way. Hands down even double the wattage in LED can't compare to a HPS.

This is a picture of a 350-watt panel (a previous generation product) in action. Do you mean that two of them... would produce less than ONE 400-watt HPS, lol?

IIRC, the grower only got 312.6 grams from that panel, in that grow, because he kept things in vegetative growth longer than optimum for his setup in order to test out the panel's capabilities. And he also appeared to be running the panel with the 90° lenses in place on the six COBs (that panel is intended for a medium- to high-bay setup), which would have aided penetration but reduced the footprint. Having a well-tuned setup, where everything worked well together - IOW, using a growing style that best suited the lighting - might have increased his yield numbers quite a bit.

it takes a long time in reduced electricity costs to cover the extra cost of a LED fixture.

For sure. Some folks seem to live in jurisdictions/countries where consuming more electricity than one's neighbors is considered to be cause for suspicion, though. In that case, the rate of "payback" might be of far less importance than the possible security benefit.

I guess it would all depend on the grow conditions as well, not everyone's setups are the same by any means.

^^^THIS^^^

 

[Mono]

^^^THIS^^^

Hence my opinion

 

[AKgramma]

TS: you said you ran out of space. Find a used shelving unit somewhere, real cheap at a yard sale, and just install the lower and the upper shelf.

Cover with a white sheet or tarp, then a blanket, Wa-LAH. Instant tent. Two of my grow areas are shelving. Of course you'll have to use something to catch the runoff, but if you're careful, you wont get the carpet wet.

And a spare lamp of any kind with a socket splitter and 23W CFLS (or anything u have lying around unused) will do for lighting till your financial situation improves.

I go really cheap, as you know. the price of a real tent plus shipping is almost $300 for a 2 x 2. I can light three areas with a dozen CFL's and 2 Mars 300's for that!

 

[AKgramma]

I really like the Mars LEDs (using the 300's because of price) because they don't add much to the heat in the grow room. I have two of my units on opposite schedules, so the room never gets above 80 F. Now that things are cooling down here, I even get 70's, with a two-way double window fan for exhaust.

 

[AKGrower907]

Great debate. I stick to led cause the cost per watt here in barrow alaska is outrageous at 1.19 per kilowatt. 10 times higher than in the country. I do get .75 grams per watt. Which isnt bad from an led. My grow is prestine(the way i look at it in the ideal grow condition)

Sent from Deez Nutz

 

[TorturedSoul]

I stick to led cause the cost per watt here in barrow alaska is outrageous at 1.19 per kilowatt. 10 times higher than in the country.

A DOLLAR AND NINETEEN CENTS PER KILOWATT?!?

Don't they pump oil out of the ground in Alaska? WtF, do they have to send it to the South Pole to be refined, then to Mars to fire a power plant, then use rockets to carry giant gold-plated batteries back to y'all? I think if it was me, I'd be getting downright militant. As in "stop the flow of oil" from leaving the state militant. Or learning to tie nooses and build gallows...

I do get .75 grams per watt. Which isnt bad from an led.

Yeah, but... Wait a minute... You stated your LED panel uses 135 watts, but is the equivilant to 300 watts of HID lighting. So how can that be, if you're only getting 101¼ gram yields from it?

 

[AKGrower907]

A DOLLAR AND NINETEEN CENTS PER KILOWATT?!?

Don't they pump oil out of the ground in Alaska? WtF, do they have to send it to the South Pole to be refined, then to Mars to fire a power plant, then use rockets to carry giant gold-plated batteries back to y'all? I think if it was me, I'd be getting downright militant. As in "stop the flow of oil" from leaving the state militant. Or learning to tie nooses and build gallows...



Yeah, but... Wait a minute... You stated your LED panel uses 135 watts, but is the equivilant to 300 watts of HID lighting. So how can that be, if you're only getting 101¼ gram yields from it?

I train and top my plants to be 2 square feet wide. Let them veg for 6 weeks each. Scrogging helps alot. They do let the oil be shipped to valdez than barged to the lower 48s to be processed apnd distributed there. You guys get a majority of oil and gas from us. We get our oil barged here too which costs a fortune

Sent from Deez Nutz

 

[AKGrower907]

My usual yield is 2 ounces per plant. Sorry for the late reply, i had a hernia repair surgery on wednesday

Sent from Deez Nutz

 

[KingJoe83]

Not sure if anyone has told you but autos stay on 18/6-20/4 entire grow bud

 

[TorturedSoul]

Not sure if anyone has told you but autos stay on 18/6-20/4 entire grow bud

Lol. The whole point of breeding that ruderalis garbage into cannabis strains is so that the result is no longer considered to be a phototropic species. In other words, one can grow a (true) auto-flowering strain under whatever light/dark schedule that he/she wishes (within reason).

Otherwise, they'd be a complete waste of time outdoors when there isn't 18+ hours of daylight every day.

I was just wondering how much of a hit the yield would take. But I've been reading that the total amount of light-energy during the 24-hour period is more important than how much it is getting at any one time. That must be why people who throw an auto-flowering cannabis plant into their (12:12) flowering room still manage to harvest it.

 

[KingJoe83]

Lol. The whole point of breeding that ruderalis garbage into cannabis strains is so that the result is no longer considered to be a phototropic species. In other words, one can grow a (true) auto-flowering strain under whatever light/dark schedule that he/she wishes (within reason).

Otherwise, they'd be a complete waste of time outdoors when there isn't 18+ hours of daylight every day.

I was just wondering how much of a hit the yield would take. But I've been reading that the total amount of light-energy during the 24-hour period is more important than how much it is getting at any one time. That must be why people who throw an auto-flowering cannabis plant into their (12:12) flowering room still manage to harvest it.

I agree light is needed on a short life cycle , however it still needs off dark time for the roots to do its thing. When lights off . So idk Ben growing autos a year now. But really haven't tried s 12/12. Through entire grow maybe one day I'll test the theory myself .