Ase's Multi-Strain Quadlining In Coco

Hey ase! Just about to mix up some nutes. For your NPK ratios, do you go by ppm/tds/EC or by ml per gal?

With my sensi grow for coco (Just as an example) It takes 15 ml of part B to equal 200 ppms and only 5 ml of part a. So should I use 200 ppms of each (numbers are for reference only) or 5 ml of each?
 
ML/gallon and PPM. If you kind of pay attention while you are doing it you can figure out what a ML does to PPM. If you put 10 ML of one in and it bumps it up by a 1000 PPM than its pretty logical to assume an average PPM of a ML is 100. You can obtain the NPK ratios in the chart but be WAY over or WAY under on ppm. You really need both. I base my water with calmag to 200 ppm every time. I found to hit 200 ppm it require 20 ml of calmag (I use 5 gallon buckets). That is 4 of my droppers full (droppers are 5ml a piece). You just have to split things into easy ways based on how you make your nutrients and what size container. Initially I was always measuring the PPM after every dropper of every different ingredient I put in. Now looking back that seems ridiculous but it taught me about how much I need of each product to hit my PPM levels. The reason I tell Dobe that I'm not exact anymore is because I kind of know the ppm of each dropper full and I can get pretty close to the NPK I need in my head without having to detail it all out and write it down. In each sub-phase of the grow (I don't believe that a plant only has two phases, veg and flower.. that is way too broad) I am boosting something so if I see burn I can back off of whatever ingredient that is that I'm boosting.

It was pretty easy for me to do the schedule with General Hydroponic products. I will look into both AN and Sensi nutes and see what they have all in them and if they are much different. Might take me a little bit though as I am super busy this week.

This was from one of my old journals but it was my notecard on figuring out my ratios were based on ML/ Gallon.
 
No worries. That was the answer I needed! Seems I'm on the right track. Thanks ase!
 
So I guess my confusion comes when you are tallying up for NPK from different solutions, you should be multiplying the NPK ratio by ppm not by ml.

Ie

Your cal mag
1.0.0 at 18.5 ml (200ppm)

Kool bloom at 26 ml (we will use 400 ppm for ease of math)

So as you see above the ppm from look bloom is double that of cal mag (again just as an example).

Wouldn't you want to multiply by ppm?

The NPK for cal mag would be 200.0.0
And
Kool bloom 0.4k.4k

For a total of 200.4k.4k which as we all no reduces to 1.20.20

*******

But when you multiply by mls (any time the ppm additions aren't the same) the ratio changes....

19.0.0
+0.26.26
--------------
19.26.26

Clearly much differnt than 1.20.20

Hopefully I explained that clear enough.

If I'm adding 200 ppm of my cal mag, part a, and part b (4.0.0, 3.0.0 and 1.2.4) my ratio would be 8.2.4 or 4.1.2

I just have a hard time believing adding equal parts of my part a and b. A adds 150 ppm at 5 ml and B only adds 50 ppm. And I cant see how just 50 ppms of my only phosphorus and potassium contributing nutrient, is sufficent.
 
@TheMadDabber, PPM shouldn't play into the equation when calculating your ratio. It's not 1:1 between NPK and PPM level. 20 ml of one solution is not the same in its influence on PPM as 20 ml of another solution.

The way to see the PPM impact of each nute is to measure, add your nute, then remeasure.

The calculation Ase put together is on the money for calculating NPK ratio, but you'll need to make educated guesses and test the results to hone in on the PPM impact.

I put together a quick spreadsheet that I'll see if I can share later (I'm on my phone now) to do quick calculations. What I do is formulate a combination in my spreadsheet, then mix and measure, and keep track of the result.

Let's say I wanted to hit 1-1-1, 300 PPM. I know my calmag is going to be 18.5 ml and that I'll be just north of 200 PPM with Calmag. I know I don't need a ton of additional nutes to reach 300. So, I'll calculate what will take me to hit 1:blushsmile:1 when I add my other nutes, and then as I add those nutes I'll measure to see the PPM impact. I know my ratio will be dead on. If my PPM is off, I can use the same ratio but in different amounts the next day to keep the ratio but fix the ratio.

Hope this helps clarify things.
 
Yeah I'm still lost if your using a cal mag of 1.0.0 (1% nitro) and your 18.5 ml gets you to up 200 ppms. I shouldn't care that my part 2 only raises 20 ppm?

So nitrogen raises ppms more than P or K? I assumed ppm is directly related to the guaranteed % analysis. Granted I understand they often contain other stuff that changes the ppm.... so maybe there's just way more "stuff" in my part A? Like 3 times the stuff.
 
Yeah I'm still lost if your using a cal mag of 1.0.0 (1% nitro) and your 18.5 ml gets you to up 200 ppms. I shouldn't care that my part 2 only raises 20 ppm?

So nitrogen raises ppms more than P or K? I assumed ppm is directly related to the guaranteed % analysis. Granted I understand they often contain other stuff that changes the ppm.... so maybe there's just way more "stuff" in my part A? Like 3 times the stuff.

Im almost off work and will be able to look at this soon. I think it’s safe to say that if you run a two part system and I run a 3 part system that there is more stuff crammed into each bottle of the 2 part than the 3.

It could also be more concentrated as well. I just need to take a look. It’s part of the reason I say to play around with it because the most marketing is done in nutrients. Everyone has their favorite and there isn’t really a clear winner. They all have the same ingredients but split them up and sell to us as different (we’ll mostly the same). I’ll get this figured out soon for ya TMD! Damn real life always getting in the way of growing!!
 
Alright here we go! @TheMadDabber

I basically run a 4 bottle system for feeding. Cal-mag (1-0-0), GH Micro (5-0-1), GH Bloom (0-5-4) and GH Grow (2-1-6). If you look on most nutrients that run a two part system you have a part A and a part B. From what I've seen the Part A is usually the Cal-mag and Nitrogen together and the Part B is the Phosphorous and Potassium. Either way these 4 nutrients are what I call "Major" nutrients. Everything else the plant needs I consider trace minerals (zinc, iron, copper, etc.). The only thing I really focus on is the Major nutrients. I like to think that if you are following the instructions on a bottle then you are basically growing with something like the Lucas Formula. Lucas Formula is a very basic feed schedule and will get your plants through a grow. They won't be great but it will work. Basically you use the same single NPK ratio in veg and then use the same ratio in flower. There never are boosts in anything. Nutrients companies try to make it as easy as possible for customers because nutrients are confusing! The simpler the feed schedule is, the higher chance someone will buy it. Do not get fooled into thinking the nutrient companies are there to help you and are just making it easy for you to grow awesome bud. It's way too basic.

In the end the part that matters most to me is PPM, or parts per million. This is how much you are feeding your plants. If I say to do 500 ppm and you do 1000 ppm than you are overfeeding and the plants will likely have nute burn or you'll see a lot of salt buildup (likely a combo of both). The plants just don't need to eat that much and they take what their maximum is of the nutrient and the rest drains out the bottom. The maximum of a nutrient is not what you want because that is when plants will lock out and stop absorbing nutrients altogether until it can clear through the build up. IN COCO I DO NOT EVER WASH WITH PLAIN WATER UNTIL FLUSHING. If my schedule calls for 800 ppm and the plant is locking out then I will give it a very heavy feeding of 1-1-1 NPK solution and about half the PPM called for. It allows the plant to absorb some of the nutrients that it is heavy on (because the PPMs are lower) and also flushes it out (like a plain water flush). In it's place it leaves a very balanced NPK solution and the plant can start taking whatever it needs to fix itself because there are equal parts of all 3.

With all that said, basically the PPM is how much it needs to eat. That is what the feed needs to equal in the end. If I am eating a burger and fries then at the end I come out about clean at the same time of both and feel fine. If I get two burgers and just one fry then I always finish the fries too fast and am left with too much burger. If I get two burgers and two fries then my ratios are back to being the same but I am left with extra burgers and fries in the end. If I do eat the whole meal I tent to feel like crap because I am stuffed and I no longer want burgers and fries for a few days. I'm "locked out" at that point and refuse to put anything like it in my body for a while. If the next day someone says, "Hey I got you one burger and one fry because I know its the ratio you like" I'd still say I don't want it because I was overloaded from before. The PPM is how much you eat and you don't want the plant to feel stuffed or hungry. The NPK ratios are what makes up that total meal. If I just had 3 burgers instead of a burger, fries and soda than I most likely wont feel like I ate a balanced, fulfilling meal. I may have ate the right amount for my size (PPMS) but I'm not real thrilled with just eating one thing. Do that a few times in a row and now I feel sick and don't want anything. There are times I might want more fries or more burgers but since my feed schedule changes weekly, It allows for that. In veg the plants really like Nitrogen and calcium more than anything but the NPK is pretty close to 1-1-1 throughout the whole thing. In flower the ratios start to get much more drastic. As the girls get bigger you give them a PK boost and they go to town. It's like they are pregnant. They used to eat a burger, fries and a soda. Now they want two burgers, a fry and soda. Not only does their total feed (PPM) increase but their ratio mix changes as well.

I could calculate everything by PPM if my bottles were all of one nutrient. Each bottle has a blend of all 3 of the major nutrients so that makes it quite difficult. If I needed to hit a ratio of 1100 ppm and 1-1-1 NPK and each one was it's own bottle I could do 200 PPM of calmag (what I always do), 300 of nitrogen, 300 of phosphorous and 300 of potassium. This is the reason I I use ML to figure out the NPK ratios. If I have a bottle that is 5-0-1 then I have to account for each of the 3 major nutrients and PPM doesn't do that. Think of those numbers as parts. If I have 1 gallon of water and I put in 1 ML of micro than I have just put in 5 parts nitrogen, zero phosphorous and 1 potassium. It might equal 100ppm. If I do it again I will likely be at 200 ppm and my NPK ratio is now 10-0-2. I then have to add up my micro, bloom and grow and then divide them by a common number to get the exact ratio of what I've put into the bucket of all 3.

This is where using different nutrients can be tricky. Nutrients aren't standardized and come in all sorts of different shapes and sizes. I noticed sensi's nutrients in flower are 3-0-0 for part A and 2-4-8 for part B. There is no way to achieve my ratios with just the basics of of sensi in my opinion. You'll get good stuff but it won't be ideal. That is why sensi has all the other stuff in line for boosters. Because it isn't all inclusive in just the basic bottles. You can use the same math when you add in boosters to you core products and get a total N-P-K. Usually its the core ones that make the biggest difference but ML/Gallon gives me the right ratios and I just have to work within that to get total ppms. If I overdo it I can just add water and dilute it a bit and NPK ratios stay the same and the PPM drops and that's how you can get to the right combo if it's too high.

Hope it helps!
 
Reps man! This same explanation helped me really understand what N-P-K and PPM mean and how to use them as well as create my own feed schedule. I mean I’m still learning and I can’t reread this enough. I’ll second Ase in saying we can’t replicate his schedule with the sensi line, I’ve tried.

I’m just waiting for mine to run out and I’ll order my whole new line;)
 
Reps man! This same explanation helped me really understand what N-P-K and PPM mean and how to use them as well as create my own feed schedule. I mean I’m still learning and I can’t reread this enough. I’ll second Ase in saying we can’t replicate his schedule with the sensi line, I’ve tried.

I’m just waiting for mine to run out and I’ll order my whole new line;)

I think you can but I think you need some of the other bottles to do so. As I tell Dobewon though, you really just have to get into the ballpark if you can. It's not as big of a deal to be as precise as I was when I made that schedule.
 
Day 25 Veg Tent A - Day 31 Flower Tent B

A little quick update of the plants. The Veg girls began the first real training today and they all got it. While the 2 top branches are still limber I like to pin them down and let the bottom two branches grow up to the same height as them. Once they get to that height I then start pinning them down as well so they all stay even.

Before picture. I also took off the big fan leaves. I want everything to focus on the new growth in just the 4 main quadlined branches. It's time to pump all the energy through them. As a sidenote, I like to tape a piece of old fashioned yellow sticky paper to a small bucket and catch gnats and any bugs. It really keeps things in check the whole grow bug-wise. I keep it at the base of the plants as that is where the bugs like to jump around at and I change it once a grow. Highly recommend it and forget anything fancy, the old fashioned ones are just plain the best.
After. Because of fabric pots, you have to be a little bit more creative when training. I really like rubber tomato ties and metal stakes. I stick the tomato tie around the stake and push it into the coco. Then I hook the free end of the tomato tie to the branch and slowly push the stake further down into the coco to pull the branch. SLOWLY AND GENTLY. You can kind of pre bend the branches too so you don't do it all at once and snap it.
The whole family. The White Rhino in the bottom left corner is clearly littler than the rest but it will be the most Indica. I won't do as much training with it as I will the others unless it really picks up more. I anticipate it being just a bit smaller though overall.

The Flower tent is doing swell! My recent harvest has the whole area smelling like fresh bud so I am anxious to get those jarred up in the next few days so I can get a whiff of these ones. They are stacking really nicely and resin is forming all over.
 
Yeah I think I need to add some flavor to the line up. I need something with equal P and K. I'm thinking liquid look bloom it's 0.10.10
 
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