Anti-fungal foliar spray test of aerated worm compost tea

[cbdhemp808]

Did you add malted barley to them? Coot says it speeds up harvest by 15-20%.

Didn't add any barley. Things I did add that were new: 1) solution-grade fulvic acid in the water, 2) solution-grade Langbeinite (K, Mg, S), 3) more K during flowering. Other factors: solar exposure was low, due to time of year and shading of the flowering greenhouse by weed trees.

There are reports of others having success, so maybe tweak it next round. @Bode uses microbes from leaf mold and I believe he sprays weekly, and @danishoes21 uses a variety of different inputs like willow.

Thanks. I'm thinking to add a lot more worm castings, and anything that will help grow the beneficial microbes – open to ideas. This last run I did was only worm castings. I added some sugar in the last few hours of the brew.

I talked to a local grower tonight who was talking about KNF ferments. I am not up on KNF ferments, but I am aware of IMO cultures, and I have a good document describing exactly how to make one.

What I'm looking for is the most easy and efficient culture to produce, using the most basic ingredients – nothing exotic.

What would you say is the best foliar spray to prevent bud rot?

Not sure if you need different microbes or more frequency. Good test results though for the knowledge bank. Maybe post them up in the Mold vs. Microbe thread?

Sure, I'll do that. Thanks again for getting it all going.

 

[Sativa1970]

Greetings Growmies,

Before tonight's big update, check this out... crazy fast flowering time... WTF?!

The photos show one of 2 Kush clones, flipped to the flower house at the same time. So, 4 photos below, starting with pre-flower on Sept. 30, and ending with a nearly finished bud on Oct. 24 ?! Now... to be fair, the trichomes aren't ready yet... there's still a lot of clear ones. HOWEVER, I've got a Maui Wowie and 2 CBD phenos flipped around THE SAME TIME, and they are DONE!

Sept. 30 - Oct. 24 = 3 weeks, 3 days.

Can anyone explain why my plants had a 25-day flowering phase? What I've recorded in the past is 5-7 weeks.

Kush on Sept. 30 - pre-flower

A week later...

Kush Oct. 8 - early flower

12 days later...

Kush Oct. 20

this transition is mind-blowing... 4 days?!

Kush Oct. 24

I've found that if I veg my clones 4 weeks the flower time is in week 10. If I veg for 6 weeks the flower time is in week 8. The more mature plant progresses faster during first half of flower. Even if you don't change the veg time some plants will just randomly mature quick, leading to a fast flower. With mowi clones I have had amber at five weeks right next to a clone that took 9 weeks. Love mowi but she can be a fickle plant.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I've found that if I veg my clones 4 weeks the flower time is in week 10. If I veg for 6 weeks the flower time is in week 8. The more mature plant progresses faster during first half of flower.

Thanks... good to know. I notoriously let my plants veg for too long. But I wouldn't say that about these 5 plants (2 kush, 2 CBD, 1 Maui).

Even if you don't change the veg time some plants will just randomly mature quick, leading to a fast flower. With mowi clones I have had amber at five weeks right next to a clone that took 9 weeks. Love mowi but she can be a fickle plant.

These 5 plants were all moved to flower at the same time (give or take a few days). The 5 represent clones of 3 phenos. They are all finishing at about the same time.

Have you ever heard of 25 days? I wonder if that's the quickest possible for a photo plant.

 

[Azimuth]

I talked to a local grower tonight who was talking about KNF ferments. I am not up on KNF ferments, but I am aware of IMO cultures, and I have a good document describing exactly how to make one.

Have a look at the first page of my "Alchemy" thread for a bit of background on KNF and Jadam.

 

[Sativa1970]

Have you ever heard of 25 days? I wonder if that's the quickest possible for a photo plant.

So you had 5 plants, consisting of three different strains and they all finished in 25 days? It is rare for me to get 2 clones from the same mother to finish together.

It could vary based on when you start the clock but 25 days is vary fast no matter when you start counting. I Grow an early harvest Jack herer for a few people that is low THC but high CBG. I harvest as soon as the trichomes are headed and 75% clouded. Those are 5 weeks from light flip so around 25 days of actual flower.

I have also experimented with early winter simulation as soon as the plant started to flower. Dropped the temp and cut the light timers back a 15 minutes every 3 days. The plants focused on ripening the trichomes and pistols changed color. The buds ripened up faster but there was no volume to the buds.

 

[cbdhemp808]

So you had 5 plants, consisting of three different strains and they all finished in 25 days? It is rare for me to get 2 clones from the same mother to finish together.

Yes, the two kush clones that were part of the test, and the 2 CBD clones, and 1 Maui Wowie clone. I took a close look at trichomes tonight and the CBDs and MW can be harvested very soon... maybe in a couple days. The kushes still have glassy trichomes. The kushes seems to have responded well to the peroxide, so I'll treat them again probably tomorrow morning.

It could vary based on when you start the clock but 25 days is vary fast no matter when you start counting. I Grow an early harvest Jack herer for a few people that is low THC but high CBG. I harvest as soon as the trichomes are headed and 75% clouded. Those are 5 weeks from light flip so around 25 days of actual flower.

Today mine are at 25 days from being moved from the veg house to the flower house. Did you have your Jack H. buds tested? Just curious what your THC and CBG levels are.

I have also experimented with early winter simulation as soon as the plant started to flower. Dropped the temp and cut the light timers back a 15 minutes every 3 days. The plants focused on ripening the trichomes and pistols changed color. The buds ripened up faster but there was no volume to the buds.

I wonder if my plants are detecting the mid-autumn conditions here, with our lower sun angle, and rushing to complete flowering before winter. I'll try to compare this with a harvest last year at this same time, but I'm sure it wasn't 25 days in flower.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Have a look at the first page of my "Alchemy" thread for a bit of background on KNF and Jadam.

I talked to a friend today who said he used to make large batches of aerated compost tea, and he used a lot of molasses and fish emulsion added right at the start of brewing. So, according to that, I'm deficient in both sugar and nitrogen. He used something like 1 gal molasses, 1 gal fish emulsion, in 50 gal tea batch.

I might take another crack at this with two Blue Dream clones I have in the veg house. I'd give them multiple applications of foliar tea starting while they're still in veg. I'm thinking 5 applications. I would probably use organic sugar dissolved in water and bat guano (N).

Another idea percolating in my mind is a Lactobacillus culture (LAB) made from coconut milk or coconut water. I have access to lots of coconuts. I also happen to have lots of brown rice. Here's a recipe for LAB from 2013: Gil Carandang Lactobacillus Serum Recipe. Does anyone know of improvements to this basic recipe? I have a friend who uses LAB to prevent mold and bud rot... he says it works great.

Did anyone test LAB in the Mold vs. Microbe thread?

How about an aerated worm compost LAB tea?! Add rice wash, coconut milk, and sugar to the compost tea at the start of brewing.

 

[Azimuth]

Yes, the two kush clones that were part of the test, and the 2 CBD clones, and 1 Maui Wowie clone. I took a close look at trichomes tonight and the CBDs and MW can be harvested very soon... maybe in a couple days.

I wonder if my plants are detecting the mid-autumn conditions here, with our lower sun angle, and rushing to complete flowering before winter. I'll try to compare this with a harvest last year at this same time, but I'm sure it wasn't 25 days in flower.

@BeezLuiz had buds tested Here from an outdoor grow and found harvesting based on trichome color caused him to harvest way too early and he lost a lot of potency. Something about the effect of sunlight on the trichomes causes them to turn amber long before the plant is actually ready to be harvested.

Think that might be happening to you?

I talked to a friend today who said he used to make large batches of aerated compost tea, and he used a lot of molasses and fish emulsion added right at the start of brewing. So, according to that, I'm deficient in both sugar and nitrogen. He used something like 1 gal molasses, 1 gal fish emulsion, in 50 gal tea batch.

That's not KNF or Jadam, but that sounds like way too much molasses.

Another idea percolating in my mind is a Lactobacillus culture (LAB) made from coconut milk or coconut water. I have access to lots of coconuts.

LAB is usually made with plain old milk. The microbes you are trying to isolate thrive in that environment and they end up outcompeting everything else leaving only them. I'm not sure coconut milk is a true milk so who knows what your results would be. You'd probably have to look at it under a microscope when you're done and know what you're looking at to tell.

I've never heard of anyone using coconut "milk" for making LAB.

I have a friend who uses LAB to prevent mold and bud rot... he says it works great.

Did anyone test LAB in the Mold vs. Microbe thread?

Not this year, but @Bode said he tried it and the leaf mold worked better for him than LAB.

How about an aerated worm compost LAB tea?! Add rice wash, coconut milk, and sugar to the compost tea at the start of brewing.

Microbes compete with each other for real estate and whenever one species has the upper hand they will dominate, at least until conditions or food supplies change. There are tons of great microbes in worm compost that I would think you'd be neutralizing with an injection of LAB. Both are good, but in my experiments the worm castings were better at breaking down organic matter both quicker and more completely than the LAB so personally I wouldn't mix them and my preference is always worm castings.

It could be that my LAB is old and tired and I may redo the experiment with a fresh batch someday.

 

[Sativa1970]

I never had the bud lab tested. Talking to a few people that made CBG tinctures is where the early harvest came from. I grow it for a few people suffering with raspatory issues. CBG is a bronchial dilator. The standard grow helped with some of there breathing issues and had a definite noticeable high. The early harvest has almost no euphoric effect, THC. My uncle was using a minimum of 5 inhaler puffs a day to just breath while sitting inside. standard grow dropped him to 4 puffs a day. But the early harvest dropped him to 2 puffs a day while clearing a section of land with a scythe. Wife has used an inhaler daily most of her life. She hasn't used it in over a 2 years now.

Do you remember what your yield was from previous grows? Normally a fast harvest comes at the price of low THC or low yield.

 

[cbdhemp808]

@BeezLuiz had buds tested Here from an outdoor grow and found harvesting based on trichome color caused him to harvest way too early and he lost a lot of potency. Something about the effect of sunlight on the trichomes causes them to turn amber long before the plant is actually ready to be harvested.

Think that might be happening to you?

No, because there's not much amber happening yet. I can just tell by the maturity of the buds, and the fact that the stigmas are rapidly turning brown.

LAB is usually made with plain old milk. The microbes you are trying to isolate thrive in that environment and they end up outcompeting everything else leaving only them. I'm not sure coconut milk is a true milk so who knows what your results would be. You'd probably have to look at it under a microscope when you're done and know what you're looking at to tell.

I've never heard of anyone using coconut "milk" for making LAB.

It's all new to me, but I did find some websites talking about people using coconut milk instead of cow milk. And there's the fact that coconut milk yogurt is a thing... it's in the stores. Also cashew milk yogurt... really good, I buy it all the time.

I wrote:

I might take another crack at this with two Blue Dream clones I have in the veg house. I'd give them multiple applications of foliar tea starting while they're still in veg. I'm thinking 5 applications. I would probably use organic sugar dissolved in water and bat guano (N).

I'm having second thoughts about all this. The Blue Dream was actually bud rot resistant, so probably no need to apply anything. I'm leaning toward growing strains that are resistant. I'm looking forward to trying some Blueberry hybrids, since I hear Blueberry is very fungus resistant. I've got my favorite CBD pheno flowering right now, and there's not the slightest sign of bud rot. I think the kush I'm growing, which is GSC x Kush, is gonna be retired from my grow... I might keep a small clone mom. I really like the effects of the Blue Dream, which is actually a Blue Dream hybrid from Humboldt – that'll be my go to for indica, for a while.

Microbes compete with each other for real estate and whenever one species has the upper hand they will dominate, at least until conditions or food supplies change. There are tons of great microbes in worm compost that I would think you'd be neutralizing with an injection of LAB. Both are good, but in my experiments the worm castings were better at breaking down organic matter both quicker and more completely than the LAB so personally I wouldn't mix them and my preference is always worm castings.

Thanks. I just want to keep things as simple and efficient as possible. Again, leaning toward strains that are fungus resistant.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Do you remember what your yield was from previous grows? Normally a fast harvest comes at the price of low THC or low yield.

Do you mean my CBG pheno? I have that going in my perpetual grow, but thinking now to de-emphasize it, because I've got my sights on some new CBG seed that's more potent. What I'm growing now is about 14% CBG.

Or, do you mean this situation I'm seeing with flower time of 25 days? Yes, the yield is obviously lower, which I attribute to the time of year – a lot less solar exposure on the flower house. During spring and summer, the sun was overhead. Now the sun's at an angle to the south. I really, really need to cut down some trees. Weed trees grow like crazy here. Everything grows like crazy!

CBG is a bronchial dilator...

Thanks for that... I didn't know that. Very cool. Did you know that CBGA binds to the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and inhibits it from entering cells? So does CBDA. I'm looking forward to making some low-temperature lipid extract – i.e. extract the cannabinoids using an oil, probably MCT coconut mixed with olive, and keep the temp below the decarb temp. I'm holding out to buy a nice thermostatically-controlled, stirring hotplate for that purpose. And for making decarbed versions, too.

 

[Sativa1970]

Do you mean my CBG pheno?

I was referring to the plants composition and breakdown of cannabinoids during the flowering cycle. In general the buds produce cbd and cbg first in flower. The amber trichomes are the effect of cannabinoid decomposition being converted to THC. There is a point where the CBD and CBG are relatively high before the production of THC kicks in. Every phenom is different but this is a generally true. This is why heavy amber harvests have a strong euphoric effect with more couch lock.

Did you know that CBGA binds to the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus and inhibits it from entering cells?

Found early research on it. Everyone I knew that smoked had a bag tucked in there front door during the pandemic.

 

[InTheShed]

If the plants aren't showing any amber yet I'm still thinking the spray is what caused the early browning of the pistils. That seems to be a more logical explanation than the plant matured in 25 days.

I'm not sure coconut milk is a true milk

I, on the other hand, am 100% sure coconut milk is not a true milk. Otherwise you wouldn't have to keep putting adjectives in front of it!

In general the buds produce cbd and cbg first in flower.

I've never heard that. As far as I know CBGa is the precursor to to both THCa and CBDa. Plants don't start with CBDa and convert it to something else during maturation.

Source

 

[cbdhemp808]

I was referring to the plants composition and breakdown of cannabinoids during the flowering cycle. In general the buds produce cbd and cbg first in flower.

They produce CBGA first, and that gets converted to THCA, CBDA, and CBCA. See the chart above that Shed posted. CBG is considered the Mother of the Cannabinoids.

The amber trichomes are the effect of cannabinoid decomposition being converted to THC.

I would call it production or transformation, not decomposition.

There is a point where the CBD and CBG are relatively high before the production of THC kicks in. Every phenom is different but this is a generally true. This is why heavy amber harvests have a strong euphoric effect with more couch lock.

I would say the trichomes first produce CBG, and then that gets transformed into THC or CBD, depending on the chemotype. In the case of chemotype IV, the CBG plant, little to no THC or CBD are produced. But I'm with you on amber meaning that more THC (or CBD) has been produced.

Found early research on it. Everyone I knew that smoked had a bag tucked in there front door during the pandemic.

...except it's not THC or CBD that does the trick apparently... it's CBDA and CBGA... the raw, unheated forms.

 

[cbdhemp808]

If the plants aren't showing any amber yet I'm still thinking the spray is what caused the early browning of the pistils. That seems to be a more logical explanation than the plant matured in 25 days.

What I'm seeing is consistent with how my grow always goes, except for the shorter flowering time. The two kushes are basically the same in terms of stigmas and trichomes, yet Kush#2 (the control), never got the two foliar applications of compost tea. As of last night, the two kushes had glassy trichomes. The two CBD phenos are showing lots of milky trichs, and some amber. The Maui Wowie is similar to the CBDs. I'll post some photos I took last night.

RE: I'm not sure coconut milk is a true milk

I, on the other hand, am 100% sure coconut milk is not a true milk. Otherwise you wouldn't have to keep putting adjectives in front of it!

Coconut milk is super important in many cultures around the world, e.g. Southeast Asia. The U.S. dairy industry has convinced everyone that only what comes out of cow mammary glands is milk.

But I think what you're saying translates to this: Milk from mammals contains lactose (sugar), whereas coconut milk does not. That's true. BUT... two very important things here... 1) coconut milk does contain sugar (sucrose), and 2) Lactobacillus bacteria have a broad ability to convert sugars to lactic acid – that's what they do. They don't just convert lactose to lactic acid.

Yogurt made with coconut milk contains the same Lactobacillus cultures used to make cow milk yogurt.

So, in the context of us growers coming up with things to ferment, coconut milk is a fine source of sugars. Cow milk, 5% lactose sugar; coconut milk 3% sucrose sugar. The less water in the coconut milk, the more sugar. Bingo.

One caveat: The lauric and capric acids (oils) found in coconut milk are known anti-microbials (anti-bacterial, anti-viral, anti-fungal). But perhaps Lactobacillus doesn't care.

 

[InTheShed]

Not to belabor the subject (since my original post was intended to be tongue in cheek), here's my take and then you can have your thread back :

The term milk comes from "Old English meoluc (West Saxon), milc (Anglian), from Proto-Germanic *meluks "milk" (source also of Old Norse mjolk, Old Frisian melok, Old Saxon miluk, Dutch melk, Old High German miluh, German Milch, Gothic miluks)".

Source

Milk comes from mammals, and the West Saxons, Proto-Germans, Norse, Frisians, Dutch, and Goths weren't referring to plant material. It's not a diary industry marketing push, it's in the definition.

Regardless of how important liquid made from the inside of a coconut is to anyone, milk comes from animals. I'm not saying liquids made from coconut/soy/almond/oat/almond/hemp (!)/rice aren't perfectly valid substitutes for milk in some cases with many uses across many cultures, calling it "milk" is mislabeling it.

 

[Azimuth]

Microbes are often specialized to their preferred host. When making LAB you are trying to isolate the type that deals with lactose (from mammals).

Are they the same type that deal with almonds or coconuts? Unlikely. Will they work just as well or better than LAB? Who knows, but you can't just assume that because it looks and sorta tastes like milk that it will attract the specific microbe responsible for LAB lore.

Like baking a cake. Once you start substituting different ingredients than the recipe specifies, you're on your own in terms of results. Might be great, but just know you are blazing your own path.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Milk comes from mammals..

I understand what you're saying, but...

Just as people a long time ago decided to call the liquid coming out of a cow "milk," so did people a long time ago (not as long) decided to call the liquid made from coconut meat, "coconut milk". Oh sh**, I just said meat! You see... it's a very common thing to refer to things as meat that are not meat in the sense of muscle material from dead animals.

The meat of a walnut, for example. One source says, "Until about [the year] 1300 the term 'meat' referred to any solid food". So, what you are saying about milk is a similar situation. In fact, the ancient meaning of milk may have been the verb form, i.e. to milk something – i.e. get the liquid out of something.

Microbes are often specialized to their preferred host. When making LAB you are trying to isolate the type that deals with lactose (from mammals).

Are they the same type that deal with almonds or coconuts? Unlikely.

Apparently they are – I just looked it up*. It's true that Lactobacillus bacteria convert lactose in milk to lactic acid, but apparently they don't really care what sugar they eat – they will also turn other sugars into lactic acid. Feel free to check my research. Microbes also often diversify – makes sense for survival.

(*I looked up coconut, not almonds).

Will they work just as well or better than LAB? Who knows, but you can't just assume that because it looks and sorta tastes like milk that it will attract the specific microbe responsible for LAB lore.

Like baking a cake. Once you start substituting different ingredients than the recipe specifies, you're on your own in terms of results. Might be great, but just know you are blazing your own path.

Not assuming. I just did the research and verified everything I said. Lactobacillus can process a variety of sugars into lactic acid. You can make yogurt using Lactobacillus and coconut milk.

LAB = Lactic Acid Bacteria. Lactobacillus. Lactobacillus produces lactic acid. It's confusing, because we are talking about two things... lactose (sugar) and lactic acid (an acid). Raw cow milk already contains lactic acid, so I'm guessing that means Lactobacillus is naturally present in the milk. Heck, I think it's floating around in the air everywhere, right?

 

[cbdhemp808]

Trichome pics from last night. These were taken at the same time, with the same camera, same lighting conditions, same magnification.

Kush#1 (the test) - mostly clear

Kush#2 (the control) - mostly clear

CBD pheno - clear, milky, and amber

Maui Wowie - clear, milky, and almost amber

 

[Azimuth]

Raw cow milk already contains lactic acid, so I'm guessing that means Lactobacillus is naturally present in the milk. Heck, I think it's floating around in the air everywhere, right?

We're talking about two different things.

Apparently they are – I just looked it up*. It's true that Lactobacillus bacteria convert lactose in milk to lactic acid, but apparently they don't really care what sugar they eat – they will also turn other sugars into lactic acid.

I'm not doubting that they can convert whatever sugar or care what they eat. You are assuming you already have them. I'm asking how do you isolate them.

To make it, first you trap a wide variety of microbes from the air that are everywhere, always. The lactobacillus will be among the microbes you trap.

By then submerging the lot in milk, the lactobacillus quickly become the dominant species and outcompete and consume the others. So you're left with a very pure extract containing almost exclusively that one species.

Will that process work the same on plant based "milks"? That's what I don't know and why I say you can't just assume you have lactobacillus only or even primarily if you use some other base.

Your output could still work great, but you substituted the main ingredient for something unrelated, and therefore YMMV.