Anti-fungal foliar spray test of aerated worm compost tea

[cbdhemp808]

We're talking about two different things.

We're talking about many things, yeah?

I'm not doubting that they can convert whatever sugar or care what they eat. You are assuming you already have them. I'm asking how do you isolate them.

To make it, first you trap a wide variety of microbes from the air that are everywhere, always. The lactobacillus will be among the microbes you trap.

By then submerging the lot in milk, the lactobacillus quickly become the dominant species and outcompete and consume the others. So you're left with a very pure extract containing almost exclusively that one species.

Will that process work the same on plant based "milks"? That's what I don't know and why I say you can't just assume you have lactobacillus only or even primarily if you use some other base.

Your output could still work great, but you substituted the main ingredient for something unrelated, and therefore YMMV.

You make a good point – Lactobacillus will probably be dominant, because they can convert lactose to lactic acid. There are several Lactobacillus species. I'm not aware of any other bacteria that can convert lactose to lactic acid – i.e. multiply in the presence of lactose.

If we are talking about LAB serum used in a foliar spray, to introduce beneficial bacteria to the leaf surface, and possibly also an acidic environment (because the serum has a lot of lactic acid in it, pH 2.4), the question then becomes, are we looking specifically to introduce Lactobacillus to the leaf surface? Why?

If we can make yogurt using Lactobacillus and coconut milk, will other bacteria also develop in that yogurt? Will they also be beneficial? Certainly there are no harmful bacteria in coconut milk yogurt.

A deeper question - Let's say we introduce relatively pure Lactobacillus culture to the leaf surface. What are they going to feed on? They need sugar. Perhaps by introducing a non-lactose specific soup of bacteria, we'll have a better chance of the leaf surface being colonized by beneficial bacteria.

 

[Sativa1970]

Let me try this again for clarity. CBG and CBD are found in the flower in higher concentrations relative to THC early in the flowers development. As the THC increases the other cannabinoids are lower relatively to THC.

The chart is using the word synthesis in place of the actual chemical reactions. It isn't intended to represent the bio chemical reaction in the plant. It focuses on the after harvest chemical compounds. Yes, CBG is created in the flower first through the synthesis chemical reaction. The CBG converts to CBD through the chemical reaction process of decomposition. Since it has no byproduct so it is not secondary or singular exchange reaction. I has no O2 consumption so not combustion reaction.( combustion is not just burning). Two H are missing so not exchange reaction. That leaves only one possible reaction type that can create it, decomposition reaction. CBG is C21 H32 O2 with decomposition of -H2 => CBD) C21 H30 O2 . CBD converts into THC through a singe exchange reaction. One O exchanges its bond with H to bind to CH2 forming double CH3 bonding to O. So yes CBG converts to CBD then converted into THC.

When I said I dropped off bags for friends during lockdown I didn't mean a 1/4 oz. 8oz bags so they could all make there own tinctures the way they like them. I don't know how much it helped with resistance but with recovery it was vary effective.

 

[Azimuth]

A deeper question - Let's say we introduce relatively pure Lactobacillus culture to the leaf surface. What are they going to feed on? They need sugar. Perhaps by introducing a non-lactose specific soup of bacteria, we'll have a better chance of the leaf surface being colonized by beneficial bacteria.

This I think is the whole point, for us at least. Others use it to control smells, or accelerate organic breakdown, or several other applications.

We have been talking about possibly using them to combat mold on leaf surfaces. This then begs the question, is a single type of microbe the most effective for that purpose. For Bode, at least, the answer was no. He had better results with the broader selection found in leaf mold.

I did an experiment in making Jadam extracts. One jar with LAB to breakdown the plant material, the other with worm castings. As good as LAB is reputed to be for that purpose, I found the castings much more effective both in terms of speed as well as completeness.

So, for me, there are better options than LAB for my purposes, although it is a very versatile microbe.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Let me try this again for clarity. CBG and CBD are found in the flower in higher concentrations relative to THC early in the flowers development. As the THC increases the other cannabinoids are lower relatively to THC.

I don't think that's how it works. First it's just CBG, then from that THC and CBD. CBD will only be present in any significant amounts if the plant is a chemotype II or III. Chemotype I has no significant CBD at any point in the development of the flower. Chemotype IV is a CBG plant, and will have no significant THC or CBD at any point in the development of the flower.

The chart is using the word synthesis in place of the actual chemical reactions. It isn't intended to represent the bio chemical reaction in the plant. It focuses on the after harvest chemical compounds. Yes, CBG is created in the flower first through the synthesis chemical reaction. The CBG converts to CBD through the chemical reaction process of decomposition. Since it has no byproduct so it is not secondary or singular exchange reaction. I has no O2 consumption so not combustion reaction.( combustion is not just burning). Two H are missing so not exchange reaction. That leaves only one possible reaction type that can create it, decomposition reaction. CBG is C21 H32 O2 with decomposition of -H2 => CBD) C21 H30 O2 . CBD converts into THC through a singe exchange reaction. One O exchanges its bond with H to bind to CH2 forming double CH3 bonding to O. So yes CBG converts to CBD then converted into THC.

OK. So you are saying that CBG first converts to CBD and then to THC.

Here's a scientific article about the biosynthesis of the cannabinoids (2021). In it you will find Fig. 2 which says that CBGA is converted to d9-THCA by THCA Synthase. No mention of CBD as an interim molecule.

I just took a quick glance at the article... feel free to dig deeper, anyone.

Well, one bit more... "In 1960s and 1970s, numerous plausible hypotheses [had] been advanced regarding the biosynthesis of THCA; however, they all were lacking experimental support. THCA was thought to arise from CBDA through cyclization..." So, the CBDA interim molecule appears to be an old theory.

When I said I dropped off bags for friends during lockdown I didn't mean a 1/4 oz. 8oz bags so they could all make there own tinctures the way they like them. I don't know how much it helped with resistance but with recovery it was vary effective.

Ah, OK. You said "smoked", so I thought you meant smoking it.

 

[cbdhemp808]

This I think is the whole point, for us at least. Others use it to control smells, or accelerate organic breakdown, or several other applications.

We have been talking about possibly using them to combat mold on leaf surfaces. This then begs the question, is a single type of microbe the most effective for that purpose. For Bode, at least, the answer was no. He had better results with the broader selection found in leaf mold.

I did an experiment in making Jadam extracts. One jar with LAB to breakdown the plant material, the other with worm castings. As good as LAB is reputed to be for that purpose, I found the castings much more effective both in terms of speed as well as completeness.

So, for me, there are better options than LAB for my purposes, although it is a very versatile microbe.

Cool. So we are in agreement then regarding leaf surfaces.

I might try a CocoLAB using all this brown rice I have.

 

[InTheShed]

The CBG converts to CBD through the chemical reaction process of decomposition.

Are you sure you're not referring to CBN? That's what THC degrades to as the flowers age, on it off the plant.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I just got in from salvage-harvesting the two kush plants. I had to harvest early, with a mix of clear and milky trichomes, clipping off anything that looked suspect of bud rot and start of bud rot, which was a lot. Both plants had just about the same amount of non-usable bud material, which I put in 2 piles and will weigh them later. I got a very small amount of possibly usable buds. I just tossed a lot of popcorn and sub-popcorn size... just not worth messing with. Tonight I will salvage-trim and start drying in a food dehydrator.

The 2 CBDs and the Maui Wowie are still looking OK. I'm trying to let them go longer.

Back to the subject of LAB foliar spray...

Can someone answer these questions... Has anyone proven that the surface of leaves will become populated with bacteria after being sprayed with LAB? If so, do the bacteria persist? Do they need to be fed sugar? Or at least re-sprayed with more LAB that contains some sugar? AND... the big one... has THE PRESENCE OF THE BACTERIA been proven to (help) prevent bud rot?

The reason I ask is because I see a possible connection in that some people have reported using citric acid against fungus on cannabis, which is very acidic (around 2-ish pH), and lactic acid solution is also around 2-ish pH. (LAB serum is high in lactic acid.) So I am wondering if the LAB is just making the leaf surface acidic, and that's what's preventing the fungus.

BTW, my two compost tea batches were both slightly alkaline.

 

[Azimuth]

I might try a CocoLAB using all this brown rice I have.

I've not heard of anyone doing this so it's definitely worth the experiment, you know, for science!

Can someone answer these questions... Has anyone proven that the surface of leaves will become populated with bacteria after being sprayed with LAB? If so, do the bacteria persist? Do they need to be fed sugar? Or at least re-sprayed with more LAB that contains some sugar? AND... the big one... has THE PRESENCE OF THE BACTERIA been proven to (help) prevent bud rot?

These are some of the questions we are trying to answer in the Bud Rot vs Microbes thread. Anecdotally it seems to help but this has also been an unusually dry fall for many of the Canadian growers so it hasn't been a typical season which could just as easily been responsible for the smaller bud rot issue many have faced. Inconclusive is how I'd describe it. Still, it didn't seem to cause more problems so I suspect many will give it another go next year.

The reason I ask is because I see a possible connection in that some people have reported using citric acid against fungus on cannabis, which is very acidic (around 2-ish pH), and lactic acid solution is also around 2-ish pH. (LAB serum is high in lactic acid.) So I am wondering if the LAB is just making the leaf surface acidic, and that's what's preventing the fungus.

@InTheShed has a citric acid spray for pm that he says is quite effective, though I don't know if the results are pH based or something else. I think the conclusion was it was not effective for bud rot but he'll have to weigh in on that.

 

[InTheShed]

@InTheShed has a citric acid spray for pm that he says is quite effective, though I don't know if the results are pH based or something else. I think the conclusion was it was not effective for bud rot but he'll have to weigh in on that.

I put this in your Bud Rot thread but I'll repost it here:

I have some very anecdotal "evidence" regarding bud rot from this summer. I had some caterpillar-induced bud rot and decided not to take off anything other than the rotten bits (no "clean margins" like I normally would). I sprayed the rest of the bud with 1% citric acid spray and the rot never spread.

It doesn't prove anything but I made note of it for future grows.

The citric acid spray does work on PM, but I do not know the mechanism of action.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Final update on the airstones...

• • • to my surprise, the airstones are now working well. The addition of a generous layer of silicone, plus soaking, did the trick. Apparently, soaking for 1 hour would work. I soaked for a couple days.
• • •

Here's the 2x4 inch airstone after today's bubble test. The silicone around the base of the nipple worked well, but I still got some large bubbles just beyond the extent of the silicone. The stone emitted a lot of small bubbles throughout its length. I will let it dry out, and then add more silicone and retest.

Here's the 2x2 inch airstone after today's bubble test. This one had silicone around the base of the nipple, and covering the whole surface to the edge. This stone worked perfectly today.

I added a complete layer of silicone on the nipple end of the 2x4 inch airstone, and let that dry. Yesterday I tested it after about 1 hour of soaking in water, and it produced small bubbles over about 2/3 of its length. That's a huge improvement over the stock stone without the silicone. I let it soak overnight and retested – same result. I was suspicious that maybe the hole that goes down the center of these 2x4 inch stones wasn't reaching the whole length of the stone, but I check the one I had broken open and it does go the whole length.

This test of course depends on the air pressure being generated by the pump. The new pump I have is 4 watt, with 2 outlets, and I had both outlets T'ed into one line going to the stone.

In the future, I'll use the 2x2 inch stone... that one's optimum for the output of the pump.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Final update on the harvest...

I just got in from salvage-harvesting the two kush plants. I had to harvest early, with a mix of clear and milky trichomes, clipping off anything that looked suspect of bud rot and start of bud rot, which was a lot. ... I got a very small amount of possibly usable buds. I just tossed a lot of popcorn and sub-popcorn size... just not worth messing with. Tonight I will salvage-trim and start drying in a food dehydrator.

The 2 CBDs and the Maui Wowie are still looking OK. I'm trying to let them go longer.

I trimmed the buds I salvaged from the 2 kush plants... about 2 handfuls.

First the bad news...

The Maui Wowie totally got away from me... on Wed. it was still looking pretty good. Today it was almost completely riddled with bud rot. I was able to salvage the top buds – they're trimmed and drying. This made me realize two things: 1) there's a brief window with this strain where the trichomes are ripe enough, but before the rot sets in – I missed the window; 2) this strain is not rot resistant like I thought. There's always a twist!

And now for the good news...

I harvested the 2 CBDs and they were 100% rot free and bug free. Trimming was a breeze.

The CBD pheno is a special one... it's particularly fragrant (sweet, grape-like) and very resinous compared to the other 2 phenos I have of that strain. This makes me think there's something going on with the terpene production that's making it particularly bug and rot resistant. Now I am wondering if anyone has found a correlation between one or more particular terpenes and bud rot resistance, combined with the phenotypic characteristic of emitted strong odor, which must mean high resin production. Has anyone heard about this correlation? I will do some research and see if I can find a common thread when it comes to fungus resistance, type of odor, terpenes, and resin production.

OK... so I did some quick research and here's some tantalizing info...

Blue Dream is well known for being mold resistant (bud rot is mold). The most prominent terpenes in Blue Dream are myrcene and pinene. I harvested a Blue Dream hybrid last time around, and it was almost completely mold free – it was a very successful harvest. The buds had a sweet, fruity odor. This hybrid was indica-dominant (70%). When I harvested these buds in August, I reported "lots of resin"...

Myrcene is the terpene associated with a sweet, fruity odor. Now, I looked up another known mold-resistant strain, Blueberry, and guess what? Myrcene is the dominant terpene, followed by pinene – same as Blue Dream. North Atlantic Seed Co. describes Blueberry as a "heavily resinous mostly indica strain".

Now here's the cool thing... the CBD pheno I just harvested has a sweet, grape-like odor, and it's obviously indica-dominant (leaves, short plant). Plus, highly resinous. Today I've been thinking to have these buds tested for both cannabinoids and terpenes.

What about sativa-dominant strains? I looked up Durban Poison, which is well known to be mold resistant. This time, it's terpinolene that's the dominant terpene; however, myrcene is also prominent. Odor is sweet, citrus, anise, pine. It's also highly resinous – Hytiva.com says, "layered in a thick cover of trichomes and over-sized resin glands". I also looked up Thai (100% sativa), and the dominant terpenes are myrcene and linalool. Odor is fruit and citrus. Wikileaf.com says, "very resinous".

Lastly, quick look at White Widow, known to be mold-resistant here in Hawaii... sativa/indica hybrid, myrcene is dominant, pinene is prominent, "bred specifically for a high trichome count" [wikileaf.com].

There's a possible conclusion here! Mold resistant strains are often high in myrcene and pinene, often smell sweet and fruity, and are often highly resinous.

 

[Azimuth]

Wow, that's very interesting, cbd. Good work! That gives us something to keep on the radar to see if it works consistently across different environments.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

There may be something to that. I've never had a mould problem with Blueberry, and I didn't get any this year on the Skywalker OG ((Blueberry x Mazar) x OG Kush) even though everything else had at least a bit.
The Blue Dream I had last year got mould, but it rained almost every day through September.

 

[Azimuth]

Final update on the harvest...


I trimmed the buds I salvaged from the 2 kush plants... about 2 handfuls.

First the bad news...

The Maui Wowie totally got away from me... on Wed. it was still looking pretty good. Today it was almost completely riddled with bud rot. I was able to salvage the top buds – they're trimmed and drying. This made me realize two things: 1) there's a brief window with this strain where the trichomes are ripe enough, but before the rot sets in – I missed the window; 2) this strain is not rot resistant like I thought. There's always a twist!

And now for the good news...

I harvested the 2 CBDs and they were 100% rot free and bug free. Trimming was a breeze.

The CBD pheno is a special one... it's particularly fragrant (sweet, grape-like) and very resinous compared to the other 2 phenos I have of that strain. This makes me think there's something going on with the terpene production that's making it particularly bug and rot resistant. Now I am wondering if anyone has found a correlation between one or more particular terpenes and bud rot resistance, combined with the phenotypic characteristic of emitted strong odor, which must mean high resin production. Has anyone heard about this correlation? I will do some research and see if I can find a common thread when it comes to fungus resistance, type of odor, terpenes, and resin production.

OK... so I did some quick research and here's some tantalizing info...

Blue Dream is well known for being mold resistant (bud rot is mold). The most prominent terpenes in Blue Dream are myrcene and pinene. I harvested a Blue Dream hybrid last time around, and it was almost completely mold free – it was a very successful harvest. The buds had a sweet, fruity odor. This hybrid was indica-dominant (70%). When I harvested these buds in August, I reported "lots of resin"...

Myrcene is the terpene associated with a sweet, fruity odor. Now, I looked up another known mold-resistant strain, Blueberry, and guess what? Myrcene is the dominant terpene, followed by pinene – same as Blue Dream. North Atlantic Seed Co. describes Blueberry as a "heavily resinous mostly indica strain".

Now here's the cool thing... the CBD pheno I just harvested has a sweet, grape-like odor, and it's obviously indica-dominant (leaves, short plant). Plus, highly resinous. Today I've been thinking to have these buds tested for both cannabinoids and terpenes.

What about sativa-dominant strains? I looked up Durban Poison, which is well known to be mold resistant. This time, it's terpinolene that's the dominant terpene; however, myrcene is also prominent. Odor is sweet, citrus, anise, pine. It's also highly resinous – Hytiva.com says, "layered in a thick cover of trichomes and over-sized resin glands". I also looked up Thai (100% sativa), and the dominant terpenes are myrcene and linalool. Odor is fruit and citrus. Wikileaf.com says, "very resinous".

Lastly, quick look at White Widow, known to be mold-resistant here in Hawaii... sativa/indica hybrid, myrcene is dominant, pinene is prominent, "bred specifically for a high trichome count" [wikileaf.com].

There's a possible conclusion here! Mold resistant strains are often high in myrcene and pinene, often smell sweet and fruity, and are often highly resinous.

Can you cross post this in the Mold vs Microbes thread? Very interesting findings and it would be good to add that to the mix of ideas over there.

 

[InTheShed]

Congrats on the good news harvest but oof on the rot.

Interesting hypothesis in the terpene vs rot theory! I'll go back and see if I can find terpene profiles on the web for plants I had with the most rot.

 

[cbdhemp808]

There may be something to that. I've never had a mould problem with Blueberry, and I didn't get any this year on the Skywalker OG ((Blueberry x Mazar) x OG Kush) even though everything else had at least a bit.
The Blue Dream I had last year got mould, but it rained almost every day through September.

The Blue Dream hybrid I grew was Humboldt Dream = (Blue Dream x (Purple Haze x Oregon Grape x Matanuskan Mist)).

@Tattoodlineman reported no bud rot with his Blueberry this season. Photos HERE.