AKGramma's Perpetual Grow

[AKgramma]

Uhh... We're more concerned with big buds than with big leaves, lol?

Plants stretch for the first 40% of the flowering period, so you'd tend to get a fairly significant amount of growth during flower - and the flowering period is when the buds form/grow/etc., after all.

In terms of the more traditional (MH/HPS) lighting, it was a general rule that one wanted a minimum of 30 watts per square foot for vegetative growth, but a minimum of 50 watts per square foot for the flowering phase.

Greenhouse growers, who grow under natural sunlight, might still supplement with artificial lighting (yes, even during flowering/fruiting phases).

If you have sufficient quantities/conditions of everything else (nutrients, decent root growth, environmental conditions, et cetera), you'll almost always see more/heavier/better yield when you add (reasonably correct) lighting during the flowering phase. Having less, well... that's sort of like removing light, lol. Will removing light grow more buds?

Now I didn't say ALL growers were concerned by big buds, but big buds seem to be the favorite topic for discussion and pics on this site. You don't see people posting their larfy buds, right? ;-)

***As for the "general rule" how did that general rule to follow a light intensity opposite from nature get started? Now, I'm not putting it down, or taking it off the table, but I do want to understand WHY. I can easily reach these levels in my 9 SF grow areas. (270/450W respectively)

I am just now in transition from all CFLs to LEDs supplemented by CFLs, I will never transition to MH/HPS for a number of reasons.

 

[TorturedSoul]

***As for the "general rule" how did that general rule to follow a light intensity opposite from nature get started?

One assumes by lots of growers trying different combinations of things over the course of several years and many grows. Sort of like the general rule of providing ~18 or more hours of light during the vegetative phase for maximum growth, and 12 hours (for most strains) of uninterrupted darkness alternating with periods of 12 hours' worth of strong light during the flowering phase - which also fails to exactly mimic nature. Or the "gaslight routine" that you and others use - which is also not found in nature, as far as I know.

Remember, it isn't the intensity of the light that controls flowering in cannabis - it is the number of hours of uninterrupted darkness. Consider the situation in which, with your gaslight routine, how you need not supply light non-stop throughout the total period during which there is some light - yet you can still prohibit flowering. Using strong(er) lights during the (daylight cycle of the) flowering period will not harm bud/flower production - just the opposite, in fact.

Many strains (and the species in general, in all likelihood) originated in tropical latitudes, BtW. In such locations, lol, there is never much more than 12 hours of light per day - which might go a long way towards explaining why a pure sativa can still grow considerably taller than we are even when grown from seed under 12 hours of light per day.

Do you get bigger (or more) tomatoes when they receive more light during the fruiting phase?

Now, I'm not putting it down, or taking it off the table, but I do want to understand WHY. I can easily reach these levels in my 9 SF grow areas. (270/450W respectively)

I am just now in transition from all CFLs to LEDs supplemented by CFLs, I will never transition to MH/HPS for a number of reasons.

IIRC, with strong LED types (IOW, COBs), I think the general rule for flowering is 25-45 watts per square foot. With less intense types of LEDs - the panels with lots of individual LEDs, but ones which are weaker than COBs - one should probably aim for the higher end of the range.

I'm no scientist, and I've never felt particularly talented at explaining things, lol. For a "real" scientific answer, you may wish to consult books about cannabis which contain both scientific data and anecdotal evidence collected by growers. Something like Marijuana Botany: An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis or Cannabis: Evolution and Ethnobotany, both by Robert Connell Clarke, might have the answer.

 

[AKgramma]

Doing the watt count, according to socket draw, it looks like I already have the minimum wattage in both veg and flower. People have been saying to use the actual draw from the socket for CFLs.

But now that I have a Mars Hydro 300, do I call it 300 watts (output) or 180 (socket draw?) Does this mean I have downgraded 50% from CFLs?

 

[TorturedSoul]

People have been saying to use the actual draw from the socket for CFLs.

As opposed to that "equivilant" cr@p? Yeah, you're not using them to read the newspaper by, lol, so it is completely irrelevant as to which wattage old-fashioned incandescent bulb they are (very roughly) comparable to.

But now that I have a Mars Hydro 300, do I call it 300 watts (output) or 180 (socket draw?) Does this mean I have downgraded 50% from CFLs?

No since calling an apple a tennis shoe :rolleyes3 . If it consumes 180 watts, it's impossible for it to produce 300 watts of illumination. Call it a 180-watt LED panel. "300" is just a model name at best (and the cynic in me is forcing me to type "and a way to sucker customers into thinking that they're getting something that they aren't, at worst" - but I'll beat him back into the shadows any second now ).

I wouldn't really look at it as an upgrade OR a downgrade until you've had a chance to use it. It's a different type of light. It'll have a different spectral chart than a CFL (et cetera). In theory, it should be at least slightly more productive (per watt) than even MH/HPS, because (hopefully NOT in theory) the various wavelengths of the individual LEDs that make up the panel ought to be more "tuned" - relevant - for growing plants. That's why the amount generally recognized as the minimum wattage is slightly less per square foot with LEDs than with HIDs. On the other hand... The quality of the various manufacturers/brands/models of LED products on the market covers a wide range from "pretty extraordinary" all the way down to "don't even take it out of the box, just toss it directly into the landfill and save yourself the grief" - which is why that recommended minimum for LEDs isn't a number, it's a range.

You really ought to make a post in Sara's support thread:
Mars-Hydro LED Grow Light Discussion

Tell her (and other people who read that thread - many of whom use that company's products, and several of whom are likely to own the same model that you've just purchased) what size space you have for both flowering and vegetative growth (both length*width and height). Mention exactly what lighting you are currently using - number of bulbs, wattages, and color temperature (2700K, 6500K, whatever) - and the model of LED panel that you've just received. Ask for suggestions as to plant-to-panel distance, coverage/footprint (for both vegetative and flowering usage), whether it would be recommended to add the panel to your existing lights or simply swap the panel for them (in your size of space). And ask whether you would be best served - knowing what other lighting you currently have to work with - by placing it in your vegetative area or your flowering one.

A side benefit of the above would be that more people would be likely (IMHO) to visit your journal. Sara, herself, has visited mine - and I don't even have any of her products, lol. I would think that LED lighting is more different than CFL than CFL is from HPS (or MH). Not only is it (presumably) tailored specifically for the purpose of indoor cultivation, but it is made up of individual components instead of a single entity like and of the other bulbs are. So it's more than likely going to benefit you by having the resource of others who have used / are using LEDs in their grow rooms. The plants might behave just a little bit differently - or any issues that they have may end up expressing themselves differently. I don't really know. At this point, lol, all I can do is guess. I hope that will change in the near future, but at this point it's all sort of "what I remember from what I read when I didn't think it'd ever apply to me personally, combined with theories and (one hopes) a smidgen of common sense." And I wouldn't want you or your grow to depend on that .

I do hope that you'll continue to update your journal. It'll help the rest of us old farts (I might not have been around when the Dead Sea was just feeling a little under the weather, lol, but I'm no longer a kid - and I've been informed that I acted like an old fart even when I was a youngin'... which I took to be a compliment <GRIN> ) who've never grown with LED lighting before.

 

[AKgramma]

* sigh * I did some research and discovered I WILL be supplementing the new LED units with CFLs. Well, I have dozens of 23 Watt CFLs in both daylight and soft white, so I don't have to PURCHASE anything more.

For the veg I will have 1 Mars 300 unit plus 7 23 Watt CFLs heavy on the daylights and in Flower, one Mars 300 unit with 11 CFLs, heavy on the soft white. That will give me approx 30 W/sf in veg and 45 W/sf in flower.

I will still continue to run the two grow areas alternately to keep the temps down, which is working well in practice now.

EDIT: At least they are gong to get the LED wavelengths they weren't getting before.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I have always been a fan of "If you already have it, might as well use it too," lol.

The CFLs might help you to tailor your spectrum a bit, also. In other words, if your plants are growing too squat/short/tight internodal spacing during the vegetative phase, you can add some ~2,700K CFLs - and if you feel that the plants are stretching at too high of a rate during flowering, you can add some 6,500K ones. (And more gross watts are, of course, more gross watts).

Regardless, it looks like you have added significantly to your illumination and I am sure that you will harvest the benefits. I bet it'll be a lot of fun!

 

[AKgramma]

My family seems to think so, too, altho they are comparing my grow with more serious growers in the area, who have banks of LED panels. They are my testers, and all of them are drooling at the pretty Bubblelicious lady just a month from harvest. The extra CFLs down low have pretty much eliminated the larfy buds I used to get at the bottom.

I guess it's a good sign when they feel they can come to gramma and do chores for me for pot. I tend to see them more when they are close to payday, but dont have enough left over to make it TO payday! LOL!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Lol (I... guess?). They ought to be doing chores for the, what do you call it. Not knowing how - or caring to learn how - to speak in "politically correct" language... Because you're old and undoubtedly changed their diapers and did all kinds of stuff for them? I admit I don't come anywhere close to doing enough for Mom (my grandparents have been gone for years and years), but I do try to help out when I can.

A good friend of mine is around 80. She goes to her daughter's house and cleans it once a week. I've told her in the past that her daughter should be coming to clean mom's house... But any more I just quietly shake my head.

I remember back in the late '70s - early '80s (she died in 1983), my grandmother on my mother's side was so poor that she had an outhouse, the closest thing to indoor plumbing she had was a hand pump on her porch and what little water she could get from it wasn't fit to wash with, let alone consume, and she didn't own a car or much of anything. Grandad was bedridden (and had already had a lung, part of his tongue, and I think something else in the mouth area removed due to cancer). She was pretty crippled up (severe RA runs in our family, and grandma had always had deformed hands anyway) but still grew a little garden so she could eat. My aunts/uncles would routinely drop their (up to five per household) kids off for the weekend (or longer). Mom was... well, I guess you could say she was just a wee bit batsh!t crazy - and it would be overly kind to say that I was "somewhat" of a trial. Two or three times a year she'd take me out there to spend a day or two. Mom would always apologize for the imposition of having the little terror stay with her... One day when Mom came to get me, I went back inside from the car to get a book I'd forgotten and, hearing them talking (and being a nosy little <BLEEP> as a child), I stopped to listen. Mom was saying she was sorry that she only had $20 to give her that time and my grandmother kind of laughed and said she was the only one that ever gave her a cent - or bothered to bring food/water instead of expecting her to feed their kids. (She also said that I was the only grandchild that minded her - which was actually true (in regards to me minding her, IDK about everyone else) and which probably astounded Mom, lol. I didn't really think a whole lot about it at the time, since they weren't "talking about anything interesting."

It wasn't until she died that I learned that every other of my grandmother's children had not only not been trying to help her out, they'd been "borrowing" from her every chance they got and never bothered to pay it back. I remember most of them coming over to my (parents') house after she died... I forget how much it cost at the time for the gravediggers to open a grave site, but they required payment up front. Pop was laid off, he worked (mostly industrial type) construction and our area was in the midst of a bad time and he hadn't had work for a while. Mom was in one of her functional phases - or had been before Dad had to come home one day and tell her that he'd stopped to check on her mother and see if they needed anything only to find her dead on the floor of a heart attack, I mean) so she was babysitting for two little girls and that money was pretty much what we were trying to live on. Anyway, my grandmother's kids were sitting at our table and Dad walked in after getting off the phone with, IDK, the funeral home I guess and told everyone what it was going to cost for the gravesite. They looked up towards the ceiling like they expected the money to fall from the sky and land on the table. Mom and Dad paid for that (he sold his truck - which also covered a small down payment on the actual funeral/casket/etc.... that my parents eventually paid off in its entirety by themselves). Funny(?) thing was, there were like six siblings not counting Mom and all but one of them had good jobs at the time. Go figure.

Stupid me (still a kid) asked Dad a few weeks later why he paid for it. He just said, "Boy, somebody has to." Mom was even worse a basket case than usual and he had his hands full with taking care of her, so it was said quietly - but I knew not to continue that conversation.

Uhh... I don't really know where I'm going with this. Just venting. It's past my bedtime (and I just realized I have to get up in... about 2½ hours, whoops) and I'm a little punchy, I guess. But...

I hope your kids/grandchildren appreciate you!

 

[AKgramma]

It's a tad different in my case, because I have something they want. And they live just around the corner. Since my mobility has gone downhill the past few years, I can't do the heavy chores, so it's more of a business deal. But the one grandson and his family have helped me out even before I started growing.

Once recreational MJ became legal, I decided to grow so that they would always know their smoke didn't have any toxic residue. I can't say it's totally organic, but I don't take shortcuts by using Raid for mites or using butane and sh** like that for extraction.

There are better growers nearby, a LOT of them in fact, but they want money up front, which they might not have. So it's a good deal all around. Of course I will NEVER recoup my grow costs, but it's a fun hobby and we have a great support system here at 420.

 

[AKgramma]

Back to the grow. Now that I am more educated as to how much the LED unit actually puts out, and many thanks to TS, who brainstormed with me, I'm going to add 3 or 4 pairs of 23W CFLS supplemental to the LEDs in veg. This will bring me up to an approximate watts per sq. foot minimum that seems to be the standard. These will be clipped onto the containers, so they light the lower and inner parts of the plants.

When the second unit arrives next week, I'll clean out and set up the spare grow area on a 12/12, with 4 to 6 pair of supplemental CFLs, also placed low. The current closet will become the spare, for overflow from the veg unit. As it is a narrow space it seems to function well enough with just CFLs.

I think I'll give the flowering lady till mid July to ripen, then start gradually harvesting the ripest buds, unless she suddenly shows a lot of amber before that. I'll get my smokers to taste test after a 30 day cure.

Oh, and please, no "check the trics"! These old eyes can't see the trics even through a jewelers loupe anymore! LOL! I have to go by pistil color and how frosty the sugar leaves are.

 

[AKgramma]

Update:

Veg is in sleep mode. I have added 8 23W CFLs, mostly daylight with a couple soft whites to the Mars 300 LED unit. The math, using actual draw, comes to 30 Watts per SF.

I noted that the vegging plants were starting to stretch, so I raised them 8" closer to the LED. They are now 12" under the Mars 300. Since I have a fairly powerful fan blowing up towards the LED unit, the temp has remained at 80 deg F, even with the addition of 8 CFLs. Most of the front panel is hanging loosely, which allows more air circulation. I figure vegging plants don't really care if there is light coming in from elsewhere.

I AM careful to protect the flower unit from stray light, however, because flowering depends on a shorter day/longer night schedule. Even then, some light does sneak in around the drapery edges, but nothing more than the moon would cast, and no light hits the ladies in flower directly. So, flowering is proceeding well.

 

[AKgramma]

The second lady in flower is in a hurry! She has flowers EVERYWHERE already! Much faster than the first BBL I put under 12/12. I got the lights right this time.

I put an question in the FAQ's about how to divide up my 2 Mars 300's. I can go 3 different ways. I want to see which set-up gets the most agreement.

 

[TorturedSoul]

I posted the link to your query in SmokeSara's Mars-Hydro support thread. Hope it helps get you some suggestions/opinions from those who have used the specific LEDs that you're using.

 

[AKgramma]

I posted the link to your query in SmokeSara's Mars-Hydro support thread. Hope it helps get you some suggestions/opinions from those who have used the specific LEDs that you're using.

I hope she doesn't suggest I buy more and bigger LED's. I did a several page look-over of her site, and she never mentioned supplementing her LEDS with CFLs. But she sure was recommending some high-end models. (of course. It's her business)

Still, I will feel better offering more wavelengths than those in the Mars 300 unit. I got a damned pretty BBL lady coming into the home stretch with her nickle-sized buds, from JUST CFLs. Well, she's a bit bare of leaves, but pretty to me.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Lol. Yeah, she might mention which of her company's products would be appropriate for completely filling your spaces with illumination. Like you mentioned, it's a business. OtOH, she lives in China and cannot grow cannabis (the penalties there make ours look like the cops and judges are doing us a favor) - but her customers can - and do - grow, so they ought to have some idea about what to expect from the products you have in terms of real-world coverage, whether they'll work best in flowering, vegetative, or both, and approximately how much additional illumination you would need in order to saturate your space. As always, what form of lighting you use for that additional illumination is up to you. And there is no reason NOT to use the bulbs that you already have.

I'd be wondering if I should center the LED panel(s) and use the CFLs around the perimeter... or place the panels so that they more fully illuminate one side (and/or corner) and fill the rest of the space with CFL light. I suppose I could make an argument for either way, but IDK which would actualyl be most productive.

 

[AKgramma]

I'd be wondering if I should center the LED panel(s) and use the CFLs around the perimeter... or place the panels so that they more fully illuminate one side (and/or corner) and fill the rest of the space with CFL light. I suppose I could make an argument for either way, but IDK which would actualyl be most productive.

This is what I did for the first one I am using in Veg. it is centered and the CFLs are all around the perimeter, or wherever there is a shadow. I only eliminated 6 CFLs with the Mars unit, but it sure looks awesome in there and casts a spooky light under the grow room door into the hallway!

 

[AKgramma]

I have cut 10 clones, mostly from the BBL lady with the sativa phenotype. These are very small cuttings, only about 1" of stem, but every other suitable branch was already in flower. I am using a 1" styrofoam circle cut slightly smaller than a straight-sided bowl (solid color) I have and poked holes in it to hold the cuttings upright. The stems were long enough to hang 1/4" below the styrofoam disk.

I filled the bowl nearly to the top, floated the disk with its cuttings in it and set it in a North window that is in shade all day. (There is a fir tree just outside the window)

According to instructions on another site, this is a fool-proof and very simple way of rooting clones. No hormones, no scraping or splitting, no air bubblers, just clean water.

This method takes about 2 weeks, so now I just make sure there is enough water in the bowl to keep the disk afloat.

It appears that BBL #1 was not a genetically sound plant, as all its clones died, including the rooted clones that were growing well previously. Now her last clone is also looking poorly. The mother's pic before taking her tips for clones is on page 13, Post #188.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Mom just throws her cuttings into a glass (of water) when she sticks them in the kitchen window. They're not cannabis, lol - but I don't think she's ever failed to root one.

You are correct that an aquarium air pump and stone are not necessary. That'll (generally) speed up the rooting process a bit though, if you are in a hurry.

Really, it's hard not to root cuttings of a plant like cannabis (if one doesn't try too hard ). All the usual suggestions just seem to decrease the time it takes for them to grow roots or up the success rates slightly (IDK... from 97% to 99%?). IMHO.

 

[AKgramma]

it looks like lady #4 is rushing towards harvest. her lower, smaller buds already show 90% amber pistils. Can't see the trics, so I depend on the digital camera to get a better pic.

The first pic doesn't do her justice, however. She has flowers all the way to the bottom, and the main branches are covered with dime to nickle-sized bud clusters. She will be harvested gradually, as the buds mature.

Her full-body portrait. I did not defoliate her. She dropped the leaves a few per day since late flower.

This is a closeup of her bottom-most flower. I had to take it with the flash OFF to get better contrast.

Closeup of a growing tip.

And a closeup of a BBL#5 tip in very early flower. You can see the difference in phenotype from her sister.

 

[AKgramma]

After looking back on this journal, and finding a misplaced label, I have to correct that all the BBL#1 clones died. The BBL #1 clone I put into a 3 gallon bin on 6/3 is doing well. I pinched the two leading tips this morning, in preparation for the next stage. As soon as the side growth catches up , and I can see roots hugging the bin, this one will go into flower.

I will start harvesting the ripe buds on the tall BBL lady soon. I gave her my version of Sugar Daddy (molasses/Epsom salts) yesterday, to plump up th buds. I want to flush her good for a couple days before taking the test buds.