36Gr0w's First Journal - Hi-Brix - LOS - Indoor & Out!

[bobrown14]

Organic gardening uses flushing practices as well to remove dead organic matter.

My guess is you've never grown organic nor used LED lighting from reading your writings here!

Why in the world would ANYONE that runs organic soil FLUSH?? That goes against all organic growing logic. Do I "flush" my outdoor organic gardens / raised beds?? Absolutely not why would I, that not only kills all the living organisms and then when they could be recycled by other organisms, you wash them away?? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT. You are talking non-sense here.

Many folks here seem to be giving you the benefit of doubt. From what I've read of your posts in this journal I'm not sure why.

If I seem hostile well I will pretty much am and will be to anyone that picks on SweetSue, thats just plain being a bully. There's no need for that type of behavior in a blog.

I'm not sorry for calling you Duty Panty a bully.

Please please try and be more positive. My Mom gave me these 2 little tid bits of advice and it works for me.

1) kill em with Kindness
2) If you dont have anything nice to say, keep quiet.

Normally I'd be on #2 here and say nothing but I cannot let picking on SweetSue stand. You can apologize to her personally or publicly, matters not to me but it needs to be done my friend. Doing the right thing is another life lesson my mom taught me. Do the right thing.

Cheers,
BB

 

[Dutty Panty]

I've generously donated time and personal items to Numerous members on here as a great friend has said on another thread take your toys and play some where else I'm glad you didn't post this in my threads for your sake.

 

[Gfcollective]

I am eager to hear more about the concept of flushing containers before harvest from people with experience in the matter. To broaden my own knowledge of another method of growing. The absolute smoothest (and tastiest) weed I've smoked wasn't flushed, so IMO, flushing in and of itself is unnecessary. I have smoked harsh hydroponically grown buds that I have to admit, I said to myself, "this must not have been flushed well", without really understanding what flushing is, what it is intended to accomplish, and what is getting "flushed" out of the plant/medium exactly.

Good ?'s 36, + rep thingys

Holy batshit. Not checking pH was one thing, but now u claim the best u smoked wasn't flushed. Dear jah.. you sir. Are just the grower that knows all the secrets huh.

Keep it going green dutty, and we are in a different level then them so they can't underatand. If one wants to start a 8k + grow doing their Lis or organic then I'll shUT up and listen but as its been said, I don't care if your family grew or if you are Johnny appleseed, if organic was so great then someone, anyone would have a large scale journal showing they do it and keep doing it for their patients or clients because they prefer it. But simply put, you all love the bottle crack fed plants. I know a few organic growers that grow in raised beds with self made compost over 3 years old and it's tasty, it's decent but they are not top shelf. Far from. So keep arguing with the growers that have made and continue making a name for themself, someday ull break out of that and realize you learn more if you shut up and listen.

If you flush properly, you won't be smoking what bottles you fed your plant. I just got done taking my crop past 74 days. I started the flush 21 days before day 60 so I had a total of 35 days of pure 6.0 pH 37ppm water.

I'll put mine against any washington organic flowers on here.

I&I

 

[Dutty Panty]

Holy batshit. Not checking pH was one thing, but now u claim the best u smoked wasn't flushed. Dear jah.. you sir. Are just the grower that knows all the secrets huh.

Keep it going green dutty, and we are in a different level then them so they can't underatand. If one wants to start a 8k + grow doing their Lis or organic then I'll shUT up and listen but as its been said, I don't care if your family grew or if you are Johnny appleseed, if organic was so great then someone, anyone would have a large scale journal showing they do it and keep doing it for their patients or clients because they prefer it. But simply put, you all love the bottle crack fed plants. I know a few organic growers that grow in raised beds with self made compost over 3 years old and it's tasty, it's decent but they are not top shelf. Far from. So keep arguing with the growers that have made and continue making a name for themself, someday ull break out of that and realize you learn more if you shut up and listen.

If you flush properly, you won't be smoking what bottles you fed your plant. I just got done taking my crop past 74 days. I started the flush 21 days before day 60 so I had a total of 35 days of pure 6.0 pH 37ppm water.

I'll put mine against any washington organic flowers on here.

I&I

Yup I as well. Not only put it up I'll throw a wager heavy wager on a blind taste test. I'll be available for said bet at cannabis cup in seattle.

 

[SmokeyMcFly]

I'm so staying out of all of this but I am very curious to see what your opinions are one way or the other once your HB crop is finished and you get to compare it to your normal nugs Dutty. I personally think you will be happily surprised but regardless of the outcome I would like to hear your thoughts on how they compare

 

[SweetSue]

Organic gardening uses flushing practices as well to remove dead organic matter.

I'm sorry. I know nothing of flushing in organic gardening. Can you back that up with some links?

 

[SweetSue]

The Facts about Dynamic Accumulators
Posted April 10, 2015 by John Kitsteiner & filed under Design, Plant Systems, Plants.

Within the world of Permaculture we often find reference to plants known as Dynamic Accumulators. In brief, this is the idea that certain plants (often deep-rooted ones) will draw up nutrients from the lower layers of the soil, and these nutrients will be stored in the plants' leaves. When the leaves fall in autumn and winter and are broken down, those stored nutrients are then incorporated into the upper layers of the soil where other plants will benefit from their deposition.

As a physician, I strive for scientific accuracy. I understand the scientific method and the world of academia. I know, beyond doubt, the benefit this arena has provided for the world. However, I also know, beyond doubt, that there is a lot of truth that has not been proven in a lab. This may be due to many factors. To name but a few: the topic has not yet been studied, there are flaws in the design of the study, or the topic is too complex for reductionist evaluation.
So with our scientific minds turned on, let's examine the concept of dynamic accumulators.

We will start with the scientific evidence... Unfortunately, there is not much. In fact, I can find almost no research into dynamic accumulators. Strike that. I can find NO research into this concept at all. None. Many sources site references, but these references just don't pan out. There are circular references, there are references to non-existing sources, and there are references to (just being honest) less than reputable books or authors. My lack of results was a bit disappointing.

As it turns out, it appears that the concept of dynamic accumulators has been passed down and around for so long that it has been accepted as fact. This concept did not originate with Permaculture, but it has been adopted and advocated by it for a long time. So much so, that many people associate dynamic accumulators with Permaculture.

Well then, how did this concept of dynamic accumulators get started? Where did it originate?

Although he didn't develop the concept, I think we can safely blame Robert Kourik, organic gardening/landscaping author for bringing the term "dynamic accumulators" to the forefront of our minds. In 1986, he wrote Designing and Maintaining Your Edible Landscape–Naturally. On page 269, he created a list of "dynamic accumulators". This list was compiled from a number of sources including: Weeds: Guardians of the Soil (Joseph Cocannouer), Practical Organic Gardening (Ben Easey), Stalking the Healthful Herbs (Euell Gibbons), Weeds as Indicators of Soil Conditions (Stuart Hill and Jennifer Ramsay), Weeds and What They Tell (Ehrenfried Pfeiffer), and The Organic Method Primer (Bargyla & Gylver Rateaver).

This list of plants was a good-faith attempt to provide guidance about what gardeners were throwing into their compost piles. Robert Kourik now openly admits that he regrets including that list in his book. He realized that the list was mainly based on informal and anecdotal reports, but this realization came too late. Pandora's box was opened. Since then, many authors have shared the information from this chart (I am guilty as well!). Some authors added additional information based on even more informal or anecdotal information. We can now find reputable authors sharing these "scientific facts" with trusting readers.

I have had informal communications with both Toby Hemenway (author of the fabulous Gaia's Garnden and upcoming book on urban Permaculture) and Dave Jacke (author of the highly recommended Edible Forest Gardens and upcoming book on Coppice Agroforestry). They both feel that the dynamic accumulator charts listed in their books were, at a minimum, unnecessary and unsubstantiated additions to their work.
With all this said, what evidence do we actually have about this idea of dynamic accumulators?

We do know that some plants accumulate minerals in high concentrations in their tissues. In the botanical community, this concept is known as "phytoaccumulation" or "hyperaccumulation", and this has been very well researched. These plants are able to grow in soils with high concentrations of certain minerals. Researchers are using hyperaccumulating plants in areas that have been contaminated with heavy metals or high-value metals. The plants pull out (phytoextract) these minerals from the soil. The plants are then harvested and processed to extract the minerals from plants to be recycled or dealt with in a more ecological manner. This "phyomining" has been used, with success, on significantly contaminated sites.

In addition, there has been an extensive database put together by botanist James "Jim" A. Duke Ph.D. which provides information on thousands of plants. Specifically, and for our purposes, the database provides information on the concentration of minerals found in the tissues of plants. His Phytochemical and Ethnobotanical Database is hosted on the USDA ARS site (United States Department of Agriculture, Agriculture Research Service). This is a wealth of information that would take a long, long time to fully peruse and appreciate. Using the information from Dr. Duke's database, a free, downloadable Nutrient Content Spreadsheet was created. I am not sure who created it, but I found it on Build-A-Soil.com. This is well organized spreadsheet with multiple worksheets (pages).

With this information, can we connect the dots for dynamic accumulators?

For instance, according to Dr. Duke's database, we can see the phosphorus (P) concentration in Lambsquarter (Chenopodium album) is over 36,000 ppm (parts per million). This is a high concentration. Therefore, it would make sense to grow Lambsquarter on our site. We would let the Lambsquarter die back in the winter and compost in place. By spring, we should have higher concentrations of phosphorus (P) in our soil. Right?

Unfortunately, while this scenario sounds good, we have no proof that it will work. Our logical pathway sounds plausible, but the reality is that nature is never quite as simple as we would like. First, minerals don't appear out of nowhere (alchemy is still not science!); if the soil or subsoil has no phosphorus to begin with, then the Lambsquarter cannot accumulate it. Second, if the soil has no biology (i.e. Dr. Elaine Ingham's Soil Food Web), then there is a good chance the phosphorus may not be bioavailable to the roots. Third, while our scenario sounds good, we have no scientific proof (research data) that if the Lamsquarter did accumulate phosphorus it would indeed be returned to the soil in a usable form to future plants. Maybe it will, but would it take six months, one year, five years, or twenty-five years to become available again? This is information that we just do not have.

In addition, we cannot use anecdotal reports about dynamic accumulators. People will often site their own garden as "proof". Unfortunately, this anecdotal information is not scientific evidence. I am not saying that their soils did not improve with the planting of dynamic accumulators, but was it the dynamic accumulation or another factor that caused the improvements? Was it mulching, composting in place, biomass accumulation, biodiversity, microclimate creation/enhancement, etc.?

As a good friend of mine likes to say, "The plural of anecdote is not data." But, to be my own devil's advocate, it is the repeated anecdotal report that often leads to scientific research which eventually "proves" a long-held concept to be true. For example, almost a year ago on this site Ben Stallings shared his experience using comfrey to improve his soil. This article is a great example of single data point that should spur more research.

Unfortunately, high-quality research is both time and money intensive.
What then should we do with the concept of dynamic accumulators?

Take the information for what it is, soft data. We can make some logical assumptions, i.e. "guesses", and hope for the best. But we should not treat or teach the concept, the theory, of dynamic accumulators as scientifically proven information. We should not treat it as fact. We should definitely not rely solely on dynamic accumulation as our single solution for degraded soils. Of course, if we are appropriately applying and practicing Permaculture, we wouldn't do this anyway.

Personally, I will continue to use dynamic accumulators in a holistic approach to soil improvement. It may help our soils for our intended purposes in exactly the way that we think, or it may help for entirely another reason. If it works, I don't really need to know why. Having more diversity on our sites will almost always be of benefit... scientifically proven or not.

John also has his own blog site, Temperate Climate Permaculture, please visit John here for this and other articles.


The Facts about Dynamic Accumulators - The Permaculture Research Institute

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 36Gr0w again."

Should have saved it. I love coming here and learning. Thank you for this.

So, use them holistically but don't push them as fact. Be honest about the evidence being anecdotal, but share the anecdotal stories, because they did happen, and benefit was observed. It just hasn't been proven yet. More research is needed.

I can live with that.

 

[36Gr0w]

Let's make this real simple. If you like how I'm growing or the information I'm sharing, please stay. If you think I'm a total idiot, explain to me in a private message. If it's valid, I'll invite you to correct me.

If you don't like what I am doing, or my approach, please leave now. No hard feelings, but this journal isn't the place for you. I'll probably see you around, I have broad interests here at

This has just been a mess lately. I'm going to focus on furthering my knowledge and my growing skills. I had hoped different type of growers could intermingle and offer valuable insights from other perspectives. That isnt happening in a productive manner. It is 100% my fault, I brought this on.

Selfish time. This is about my grow and what I choose to share from now on. Don't like it? Find one you do.

 

[36Gr0w]

This is copy/pasted from the logical gardeners. Multiple pdf files to read through now.

- The role of mycorrhizal networks in forest dynamics is poorly understood because of the elusiveness of their spatial structure. We mapped the belowground distribution of the fungi Rhizopogon vesiculosus and Rhizopogon vinicolor and interior Douglas-fir trees (Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca) to determine the architecture of a mycorrhizal network in a multi-aged old-growth forest.
- Rhizopogon spp. mycorrhizas were collected within a 30 · 30 m plot. Trees and fungal genets were identified using multi-locus microsatellite DNA analysis. Tree genotypes from mycorrhizas were matched to reference trees aboveground. Two trees were considered linked if they shared the same fungal genet(s).
- The two Rhizopogon species each formed 13—14 genets, each colonizing up to 19 trees in the plot. Rhizopogon vesiculosus genets were larger, occurred at greater depths, and linked more trees than genets of R. vinicolor. Multiple tree cohorts were linked, with young saplings established within the mycorrhizal network of Douglas-fir veterans. A strong positive relationship was found between tree size and connectivity, resulting in a scale-free network architecture with smallworld properties.
- This mycorrhizal network architecture suggests an efficient and robust network, where large trees play a foundational role in facilitating conspecific regeneration and stabilizing the ecosystem.

- The role of mycorrhizal networks in forest dynamics is poorly understood because of the elusiveness of their spatial structure. We mapped the belowground distribution of the fungi Rhizopogon vesiculosus and Rhizopogon vinicolor and interior Douglas-fir trees (Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca) to determine the architecture of a mycorrhizal network in a multi-aged old-growth forest.
- Rhizopogon spp. mycorrhizas were collected within a 30 · 30 m plot. Trees and fungal genets were identified using multi-locus microsatellite DNA analysis. Tree genotypes from mycorrhizas were matched to reference trees aboveground. Two trees were considered linked if they shared the same fungal genet(s).
- The two Rhizopogon species each formed 13—14 genets, each colonizing up to 19 trees in the plot. Rhizopogon vesiculosus genets were larger, occurred at greater depths, and linked more trees than genets of R. vinicolor. Multiple tree cohorts were linked, with young saplings established within the mycorrhizal network of Douglas-fir veterans. A strong positive relationship was found between tree size and connectivity, resulting in a scale-free network architecture with smallworld properties.
- This mycorrhizal network architecture suggests an efficient and robust network, where large trees play a foundational role in facilitating conspecific regeneration and stabilizing the ecosystem.

 

[36Gr0w]

Can we share pdf files here?

CBD Widow cuttings.

 

[36Gr0w]

Sphagnum Moss vs Sphagnum Peat Moss
Contact: Diane Relf, Extension Specialist, Environmental Horticulture
August 1996

Don't confuse sphagnum moss with sphagnum peat moss. Sphagnum moss and sphagnum peat moss are not the same product. Sphagnum moss is used in the floral industry to line wire baskets and make wreaths. It is the LIVING moss that grows on top of a sphagnum bog. Sphagnum peat moss is used as a soil conditioner by gardeners. It is the dead material that accumulates in the lower levels of a sphagnum bog. Harvesters of the horticultural peat moss remove the top few inches of the live sphagnum moss before harvesting the peat from the lower levels of the bog.

Remember, sphagnum moss is NOT the same as the safe, sphagnum peat moss you use as a soil amendment!

(References: "Don't Confuse Sphagnum Moss with Peat Moss," by Gerry Hood, President, Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss Association; "Cutaneous Sporotrichosis in Forestry Workers," by K.E. Powell, A. Taylor, B.J. Phillips, D.L. Blakey, G.D. Campbell, L. Kaufman, and W. Kaplan. JAMA 240(3):10, 12-13; and "Multistate Outbreak of Sporotrichosis in Seedling Handlers," by T. England, M.J. Kasten, R. Martin, T. Cote, D.L. Morse, R. David, and J.P. Davis. Journal of the Amer. Medical Assoc. 260(19):2806, 2811.)

Wading Through The Peat Bog

Contact: Diane Relf, Extension Specialist, Environmental Horticulture

Posted April 1997

Garden centers overflow with many products labeled "peats". The key to choosing the correct one lies in identifying the product and knowing how each is useful in the garden.The U.S.Bureau of Mines classifies peats into three major types: moss peat, reed sedge, and peat humus.

Moss peat, usually referred to as "peat moss," is the least decomposed of the three types. It consists of visible fibers of sphagnum, hypnum, and other mosses. Moss peat is lightweight, acidic (pH 3 to 7) and varies in color from yellowish to dark-brown. Its high moisture-holding capacity (approximately 15 times its dry weight) makes it a good soil amendment, or component of potting soil.

Sphagnum and hypnum moss peats differ slightly in their physical characteristics. Hypnum peat decomposes more rapidly, has a higher pH (5 to 7), and re-wets more easily than sphagnum peat. Sphagnum peat develops surface waxes upon drying that make them difficult to re-wet. Sphagnum peat is regarded as superior over hypnum peat for soil amending and as a growing media. The low pH of sphagnum peats (from 3 to 4.5) makes them better suited for use with acid-loving plants such as rhododendrons and blueberries.

Among the sphagnum peats, dark peats (those which are dark brown) are less elastic than lighter colored sphagnums. They will not return to their original volume after compression during packaging. Dark peats also lack the durability of lighter colored sphagnum peats; consequently, they are not as well suited to long-term culture.

Reed sedge peats consist of the remains of reeds, sedges, grasses, and other marsh plants. This type of peat varies considerably in composition and in color (reddish-brown to almost black). Its pH ranges from 4 to 7.5, and its water-holding capacity is less than moss peats (about 10 times the dry weight). Reed sedge peat is finer textured than peat moss. It is not as good a growing medium, but it is useful as a soil conditioner in the garden and in potting soil mixes.

Peat humus originates from hypnum moss, reed sedge peat, or woody peat. It is in such an advanced state of decomposition that the original plant remains cannot be identified. Peat humus is dark-brown to black with a low moisture-holding capacity. Unlike the other peats, it contains a small amount of nitrogen (2 to 3.5 percent). Peat humus, also known as black peat or Michigan peat, is quite heavy compared to the other peats. Its pH varies greatly (from 4 to 8), and it is characteristically sticky when wet.

Two types of black peat are found in the trade. The first, amorphous peat humus is highly acidic and virtually structureless. Any water it holds is mostly unavailable to plants. When it dries, amorphous peat humus becomes lumpy. It turns to dust when broken apart.

The second type of black peat, granular peat humus, contains humates which form aggregate particles. The aggregates give granular peat humus a high air capacity and make it permeable to water. This humus is used for improving very sandy or gravelly soil. Overall, the lack of water-holding and soil-loosening capacities of peat humus make it unsuitable for most horticultural purposes.

Woody peat, although not individually cited in the U.S.B.M. classification, can be purchased separately or as a component of peat humus. Woody peat results from the breakdown of trees, shrubs, and undergrowth from the forest floor. These peats vary greatly in texture, but they are usually quite porous. Woody peats are dark colored and acidic (pH 3.6 to 5.5). They decompose rapidly to become peat humus.

Mixtures of some of the above peat types will be encountered. Under the Federal Trade Commission regulations, a content of only 75 percent peat is sufficient to warrant the use of the term "peat". The best peat mosses contain 95 to 99 percent organic matter. A first-rate reed sedge peat will be 85 to 95 percent pure.

The most abundant constituent plant is usually listed first on the package, but your best guarantee for getting a good product is to buy brand names from a reputable dealer. For price comparison, use dry weight rather than volume since your primary interest is the actual weight of organic matter for your money.

(Adapted from "Wading Through the Peat Bog," by Virginia Nathan, Extension Technician, Consumer Horticulture, Virginia Tech, in The Virginia Gardener Newsletter, Volume 4, Number 1.)

 

[36Gr0w]

Specificity and resilience in the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi of a natural woodland community - HELGASON - 2007 - Journal of Ecology - Wiley Online Library

 

[36Gr0w]

Gardening - Chemistry Encyclopedia - structure, reaction, water, elements, proteins, gas, equation

 

[Major PITA]

Very cool 36! Way to throw down some useful info. A very refreshing change. The mess was not your doing. I'm glad I stuck around.

 

[Duggan]

Mornin 36G....I'm not goin anywhere brotha....the info that gets shared here ,on your thread is very usefull to all of us ,even if our ego's sometimes flare up. I've bin doing this a very long time but also have learned here on the "Mag' that it's sometimes best to just shut up and listen....other growers do, know so much more than i.It's very clear to me that you know what your doing and you always strive to learn more ....nuff said ....have a great day pal!Cheers eh....Duggs.

 

[akisunni]

I was out in my garden this morning and took a measuring stick. My potatoes are 32 inches tall now, and at least one small one is at the surface. My corn is about 12 inches tall. Berries are green but now visible. One green tomato is growing nicely. Spinach is ready to bolt. Its time for me to get busy with the warm weather stuff, winter crops are past their plant window.

I have been adding 3 cubit ft organic soil & N rich bundles to each of three garden beds. It appears I need to add about 10 cubic feet of new soil per bed this year. I am adding the new stuff to the top, where it can break down for the summer, and then be hand tilled into the soil for winterization of the beds. I tend to plant our winter crops in Oct for Jan to Feb harvests.

 

[Growlow]

Mick, is that you? ... (had an aussie block/bloke (is there really a difference?) setup camp on my couch for 16 months back in the day. We got into a bit a fun, here and there.).

Only my closest of mates call me Mick. I've slept on a few couches in my 12 years in the states so it's hard to say. So I'm going to go with maybe haha just kidding mate. Pretty sure you got yourself an even more awesome bloke named Mick Your lucky day mate

 

[Growlow]

First and foremost I don't involve myself in someone elses healthy debate. Take sides or however it may be interpreted? Just wanted to make that clear as a general statement for all.

Every plant, every strain has variables and tolerances you still have a lot to learn sue!!! Los does not solve all nutrient problems you still must adjust your just depending more on that aspect!

I think these disagreements have been great because it's brought to light opposing opinions and maybe new information for those who didn't know otherwise beforehand. I can stand here and talk about how long I've been growing for and my achievements but it would not hold much weight as I have been on and off here for a couple years due to health and currently no longer have an operating co-op, though I still have patients who rely on me heavily for organic medicine because they really prefer it. I met them from working as a Store manager/HR Head at one of the more expanded dispensaries throughout Seattle. One that has more than a couple 502 retail outlets now running. I'm rambling .. I apologize.

To my point in regards to this statement. The poster could not be more correct. This is exactly why I was so grateful when gifted soil from the region of Papua New Guinea where the strain PNG gold roots its origins. I was able to have the soil tested and from there fabricate not only a soil combination suited to the strain perfectly but with that information I could easily translate it to hydro if I wanted. Every single strain is different. Sure you can grow a strain with good results. The art of growing is dialing in the specifics for that plant. You won't discover this the first or second time you grow the plant. It takes cycles. Simply stated by the scientific method. This goes for all growing mediums I've used over the past 20 years which includes soil, hydro, aero and aqua. Well aqua is it's own monster so don't focus on that one so much but it still is a true statement nonetheless.

Organic gardening uses flushing practices as well to remove dead organic matter.

The only organic farming I am familiar with that has a system of flushing and using hygrozyme type products to break down dead plant material is in use with bottles nute lines like GH organic line and roots etc. Both in hydro and soil. Did you mean this in a different way bloke? I'd love to know of something else if you've encountered it. Always open to learn!

 

[Duggan]

Just cruisin around this mornin 36G....have a great day. Can you give me any tid,bits on what i can expect ,as far as flavour ,buzz, etc. with my almost done Mazar's? Cheers eh.

 

[36Gr0w]

Organic Cannabis Farm in Oregon.

Green Source Gardens | Powered by the earth. For the earth.