300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

That's why computers and other sensitive electrical equipment usually have some sort of Line Conditioner built into it - so it doesn't get fried by dirty power from the utility grid.

Thanks again TL, for your detailed and comprehensive post!


Here's a pic of a line conditioner I use to protect my audio gear. It uses 30w itself, but our line voltage can fluctuate, and it stabilizes it very well.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

No, they were freebies from Attitude... we cloned them along with 7 other strains, and they were the same or a bit more vigorous than the others - they certainly stretched more than the indicas though under our weak veg light. I just put one outside to see what happens... looking strong so far.

Me too on the indica buzz - I've got the PPP and Strawberry Cough going to change things up.

sounds good OBX. These two I'm growing sure don't seem touchy or weak.

Would love to hear a smoke report comparison between the PPP and Strawberry Cough

Agreed.
The anticipation is KILLING me! This is worse than being 4 weeks into flower!
You are doing an AWESOME job SS!

Thanks Green007!

That is what I use..... Man SS you go all out ...... + reps my friend...

We may never pass this way again.

thanks dog

keep in mind that measuring AC current draw at the wall will never be the same a the light source is rated for. The HID ballast takes regular 110 A/C (or 220) and changes it to higher voltage to run an ' X'watt HID bulb. A LED unit has to take 110 AC and change it to DC to run many small wattage bulbs. Both systems will have considerable losses between the socket and light source.

I'm not following SnowBender.

Do you mean that the intensity of the lights will never be what they are rated because of the losses between socket and bulbs/LED's?

Or that they don't use as many watts as their published power consumption?

 

[sittingone]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I just joined up after reading through almost your entire 126 v 180 thread. Great info and a good bunch of folk along for the ride, so I am going to pull up a chair. I am a med grower here in Colorado and a T11/12 Spinal Cord Injury and have Lupus and looking to slowly dip my feet into the LED pool. Thanks for all your hard work to give the detail that you have given and finishing grows so that we really get the whole picture. Kudos!
Peace
sittingone

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I just joined up after reading through almost your entire 126 v 180 thread. Great info and a good bunch of folk along for the ride, so I am going to pull up a chair. I am a med grower here in Colorado and a T11/12 Spinal Cord Injury and have Lupus and looking to slowly dip my feet into the LED pool. Thanks for all your hard work to give the detail that you have given and finishing grows so that we really get the whole picture. Kudos!
Peace
sittingone

That's a *lot* of reading, but that grow was a good ride with a lot of good friends, and yup, lots of good discussion and info.

I'm hoping this one will follow suit, and I'm so glad you're subscribed.

As I continue to meet more and more people who derive healing and relief from cannabis for their medical conditions, the more ludicrous the current legal situation becomes.

Few things would make me happier than to know that this grow helped you in some way to grow your own medicine.



and

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - ------------ 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Thanks to all for your comments and +Reps! I appreciate it. Hope that helps some folks here to eventually make a decision that's right for them. The more people that weigh in on this in either direction, the better.

Speaking of dialogue, there's a good one going on next door in Irie's 600W thread between Munki and astroastro on LEDs, worth reading. Astro^2 is a retired designer of LED products into the mass market; I'm sure there's a wealth of info in that brain of his. Check out their exchange starting HERE:

Thanks for a great post TL. Your participation in this journal is valuable and appreciated .

...thanks again for your detail and thoroughness!

Thanks mate! Good to see you're using a line conditioner on your stuff as well. Don't want to blow those Infinity speakers in a t'storm!

Question:

Would the drop in light output from the results of over-driving the LED's manifest itself as a drop in power consumption, so that we could track performance by checking watts drawn at intervals?

I've got a lux meter, so once we have the baseline numbers, we'll be able to track watts and lux as time goes, but would just checking watts with a Kill A Watt meter reflect the wear and tear also?...

Good question, SS...I'd be interested to see how the power factor (watts/VA) changes over time as increased resistance produces more heat instead of light. Not sure we'll see too much deterioration over one grow, but might as well take a few readings once we have a baseline anyway and find out. As long as we're using the same meter (kill-a-watt?), we'll have a relative indicator over time, whether or not the PF itself is completely accurate.

In a constant current circuit, when you increase resistance, both watts and voltage actually go up. So you might expect the power to increase as the system becomes less efficient.

"LUXEON Rebel" I like the sound of that.

Like a heavy cruiser in outer space .

-TL

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Lurker- thanks for the referral to this journal. More of information like this and less of some of the other stuff and we all might learn what really works with these LED's and what doesn't. Good for everybody.

Since I am terrible with figuring out how to use these journals, I quoted the whole message and cut out the parts which I can address later. I would really like to express to all those out there the significance of thermal management for the LED device itself, and the importance that consumers of this technology should pay to your advice on this subject. Aside from the quality of the light emitted (wavelength/ amplitude), the thermal management system of the core LED fixture design should be the primary merit point for these horticultural lights when making a purchasing decision (that is assuming the mfr knows what they are doing in the first place, uses quality components, has taken into consideration the environment these devices are intended to operate in, etc.- all the normal stuff you would expect when making a purchase of this magnitude- these things aint cheap).

These things are basically a bunch of computer chips stuck on a board that produce light instead of processing 0's and 1's. Take a $1000 laptop, stick it in a small box, and then subject it to tons of heat and humidity. How long do you think it'll last like that? Exactly. Cooling is paramount.

Here's the thing, folks (and folk-ettes!). Regardless of what the chips are actually rated at, those 1w boards everyone uses are not designed to dissipate all that extra heat from running it at 500ma instead of 350ma (43% more!).

Heat destroys LEDs. Forget 70% remaining after 7 years, you'll be lucky to get 50%, driving a panel like this.

This is worse for red LEDs than blues and whites, also. So much for targeting specific PAR wavelengths and driving efficient photosynthesis. Too bad flowering lights use a majority of red...

It's just that people need to know what they're buying, and go into any purchase with eyes open. Which is what being an informed consumer is all about - and the reason we're doing these tests. The proof is always in the pudding.

There's still a lot of crap out in the market now...manufacturers using low-bin LEDs in their units that are 30-60%+ less efficient even within the same product family--! ...than a good, high-bin, quality LED:

YES YES YES EXACTLY YES YES YES. Heat kills semiconductors of any stripe- and LED's are the worst of the lot. All the things you mention- decreased radiant output, dramatically shortened life, wavelength drift- all true, so very true. And as for the manufactures of LED dies- Philips Semi, Cree, Bridgelux, Seoul Semi, Nichia, etc, etc- all playing the same game with watt ratings. You can see the header at the top of the Philips data sheet- the data as shown assumes a pad temperature of 25C- now, you run 700mA thru a 1mm^2 LED die and this pad is going to be 'smoking a$$ mother effing hot' (that is an engineering term, don't be offended). You would need some kind of impractical, out of this world cryo cooling unit to keep the pad at 25C. Guess what happens when the pad gets this hot- all of the things you mention in your post!!!

The basic 1mm^2, LED die is a 350mA/ 1W device- regardless of the 'specsmanship' ocurring in these manufacturers' data sheets.

A well designed cooling system is an absolute if you really want the die to output consistantly for a long period of time- these guys are not going to get there with a slab of aluminum and some fans- certainly not overdriving the dies at 2x or 3x the real 350mA rating. You have brought attention to a FACT that all consumers of this technology should be aware of. LED's are the future as this technology represents the most controllable light source ever invented by man- but the way we are getting there now, in this market, seems to be two steps back and one step forward.

The red dies (AlInGaP) are much worse in all performance aspects than the blue dies (InGaN)- lots of reasons for this- which I would love to talk about in length, but maybe another time.

And yes- consumers need to know what they are buying. That is fair. The sketchy data sheets I have seen so far on LED fixtures have not convinced me to make a purchase- simply not enough information to make an informed decision. Some of them don't even post the actual spectral output of the light- what else, if nothing else, are we as customers paying for??? I pay for photons- that is a simple statement and it gets more complicated after that, but even the HID guys will give you this data. The emperical evidence provided by these test grows is our only hope- and the only thing that is a bit scary about this is that there are so many other variables involved in the outcome of a grow...

Thanks for your post in this forum- I could not and would not disagree with a single word in it.

 

[astroastro]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Hey Sun- on page 8 you have a shot of the fixture. Well it is a 'b' to get old- I cannot for the life of me determine what kind of LED devices these are- old eyes. Can you post a little closer shot one of these things. I can clearly make out the white LED's (yellow) and that's about it- I cannot make out the device package.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - ------------ 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Speaking of dialogue, there's a good one going on next door in Irie's 600W thread between Munki and astroastro on LEDs, worth reading. Astro^2 is a retired designer of LED products into the mass market; I'm sure there's a wealth of info in that brain of his. Check out their exchange starting HERE:

I read it last night and I agree, and thank you for inviting astroastro to this journal. I'm grateful and honored that people with your level of expertise are participating in these LED journals!

Thanks mate! Good to see you're using a line conditioner on your stuff as well. Don't want to blow those Infinity speakers in a t'storm!

You don't need bad weather to blow stuff here. The voltage fluctuates a lot and brown-outs and black-outs are not uncommon. The service has not been upgraded at the same rate as the population, and really has never been up to the task in the 23 years we've lived here.

It pisses me off enough when *I* mess up and let the smoke out, but to have the utility company do it due to not expanding and upgrading their service, and then have no recourse whatsoever when something gets fried, is really a pisser.

I'm going to get another line conditioner for the LED light. Thanks for the heads-up.

Good question, SS...I'd be interested to see how the power factor (watts/VA) changes over time as increased resistance produces more heat instead of light. Not sure we'll see too much deterioration over one grow, but might as well take a few readings once we have a baseline anyway and find out. As long as we're using the same meter (kill-a-watt?), we'll have a relative indicator over time, whether or not the PF itself is completely accurate.

If the Spectra 300 performs well, I'll be using it again, so we should be able to keep track of things over a few grows, hopefully.

I think the Kill A Watt meter is the most popular one, so if we're going to attempt to standardize, I think we should go with that specific meter.

In a constant current circuit, when you increase resistance, both watts and voltage actually go up. So you might expect the power to increase as the system becomes less efficient.

Makes sense, thanks!

It's on

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Hey Sun- on page 8 you have a shot of the fixture. Well it is a 'b' to get old- I cannot for the life of me determine what kind of LED devices these are- old eyes. Can you post a little closer shot one of these things. I can clearly make out the white LED's (yellow) and that's about it- I cannot make out the device package.

I would be happy to.

Thank you for your participation in this journal!

We all bring different things to the table, and this table is getting nice and robust.

The emperical evidence provided by these test grows is our only hope- and the only thing that is a bit scary about this is that there are so many other variables involved in the outcome of a grow...

Absolutely, and I'm not going to pretend that my garage is a tightly-controlled horticultural lab, but if I didn't feel that I could obtain useful data within these constraints, I wouldn't be doing it.

Even in a lab, when you're comparing two technologies as dissimilar as LED and HID, you're going to have variables that can't be eliminated.

For instance, how would you equalize the light energy delivered to the plants?

Have both lights at exactly the same distance?

Use an infrared thermometer to match canopy temps?

Optimize each one separately and subjectively for their "sweet spot"?

Use a light meter and match lux readings?



I believe I can eliminate enough variables to make this a valid comparison grow.

If I didn't think I could, I would have no interest in doing it for my own benefit, much less pretend that it would benefit anyone else.

I very much understand and share your concern.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

SS, you mentioned you wore welding goggles to take pics of the LED with the lights on. Would you mind explaining the precautions one should use when working with both of these types of lights while they are on?

These are what I use:

IR/UV Green Shade 3.0 Safety Glasses


The shade 3 are dark enough to provide good protection, but not so dark that I can't see the plants well. I tried a pair of shade 5 glasses, but they're too dark.

I'm going to be blunt.

These are high-intensity LED and HID grow lights and can damage our eyes and skin the same exact way the sun does.

Staring directly into one of these lights briefly from close distance, or for longer periods from farther distance will cause permanent and serious damage to our eyes.

The surface of our eyes will sunburn just like any other tissue, but the consequences are a bit more serious. Cataracts, abnormal skin growths over the surface of the cornea, cancers around the eye, and macular degeneration that can lead to blindness.

Skin protection from UV and IR is also important, so I use sunblock on exposed skin just as if I were going fishing. I like the greaseless gel variety.

Our eyes and skin don't "get used" to UV and IR. Every significant exposure is cumulative and damaging.

I'm not a very disciplined person, and certainly not a safety freak, but keeping a pair of shade 3 glasses handy, and taking a minute to put on some sunblock doesn't slow me down much at all, and is really no burden considering I'm protecting something as valuable as my vision.

Thank you for asking Green007, because we tend to dismiss the issue and joke about "seeing green" when leaving the grow room, instead of being responsible and protecting ourselves.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

UPDATE ON THE MOMS

Wow!

This is at 16 days and I'm loving hydro speed. I gave them a mini-flush to flush salts and supplemental nutes. Now it's just the OC+ and PH'ed water. I'm going to PH adjust 5 gallons of water and check it over a few days to see how stable it stays. I'm using 2/3 RO and 1/3 tap.

There's already some variation, but there's no runts here .

Nice branching at 16 days.

Go Moms!

The backup VK hybrid flowering clones are hanging in there.

I can't wait to grow some of these PPP plants under the LED and HID .

 

[SnowBender]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I'm not following SnowBender.

Do you mean that the intensity of the lights will never be what they are rated because of the losses between socket and bulbs/LED's?

Or that they don't use as many watts as their published power consumption?

It takes more than 400 watts from the wall to run a 400 watt HID due to losses in the ballast. same for LED's, there are losses from the driver when it changes the electricity from 110 volt AC to DC, and loses from running the cooling fan(s), so a 300 watt led panel should take more than 300 watts at the wall.

unless the manufacture is listing the wall consumption and not the light's wattage output....but ive yet to see a company do that.

 

[Green007]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Those MOMs are looking good.

What light is in with them? T5?

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

It takes more than 400 watts from the wall to run a 400 watt HID due to losses in the ballast. same for LED's, there are losses from the driver when it changes the electricity from 110 volt AC to DC, and loses from running the cooling fan(s), so a 300 watt led panel should take more than 300 watts at the wall.

unless the manufacture is listing the wall consumption and not the light's wattage output....but ive yet to see a company do that.

gotcha, thanks for clarifying bro

and that's one of many reasons why I like digital HID ballasts.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Those MOMs are looking good.

What light is in with them? T5?

Yes, it's a 110w T5.

[snip]

10,000 lumens from 110w, and runs very cool.

I buy the tubes from whoever has them on clearance, and I have a nice stash of them because I really like this light.

The reflector throws a beautiful beam. Fills my cab from corner to corner with excellent coverage and intensity, and no matter where the plants are, there is very little to no leaning in towards the source.

Flowers nice too.

I have no affiliation to this or any other vendor, but if someone asks, I will explain what I use and why.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Future Moms looking good!

thank you bel!

I think the turface I added to the perlite retained enough water to prevent most of the sketchiness people have until the roots hit bottom, but when they did, growth accelerated dramatically.

If they continue at this rate, they're going to be nice and big when mature enough to take the clones.

I'm thinking of LST'ing them at about 10-12" in order to increase branching and the number of clone sites.

What do you think about that?

 

[Green007]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Yes, it's a 110w T5.

[snip]

10,000 lumens from 110w, and runs very cool.

I buy the tubes from whoever has them on clearance, and I have a nice stash of them because I really like this light.

The reflector throws a beautiful beam. Fills my cab from corner to corner with excellent coverage and intensity, and no matter where the plants are, there is very little to no leaning in towards the source.

Flowers nice too.

I have no affiliation to this or any other vendor, but if someone asks, I will explain what I use and why.

Ok I'll bite - I'm asking.

 

[NCDude]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Say, what are you using for your clones in these pics?

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

The features I mentioned above are pretty much why I use it, but I can add that it's relatively inexpensive, fits perfectly in my cab with no heat issues, has no fans or moving parts, and runs very quietly.

I've tried running a 150w HID in my cab, but it stresses them and they're happier with the 110w T5. The stress from the 150w HID seems to negate any advantage from the higher watts or additional lumens. With the HID, the leaves are thin and dry, whereas with the T5, they're thick and lush, and growth is just as good or better.

So for my cab, after trying all sorts of things, the T5 works best.

I do have a 70w MH ballast that I've yet to wire up, but so far, the 110w T5 is the best choice for the cab.

I'd love to see how a 120-180w LED works in there, but for now the T5 is doing a good job.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Say, what are you using for your clones in these pics?

These things:

714222 - Planters' Pride Gel2Root®

You just poke a small hole through the foil on top and stick the clone in there.