300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[OldMedMan]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Can't miss this one either Sun

This is what everyone has wanted to see for a long time.

We'll get some answers with this one. Damn fine idea and your the one to do it!

 

[Keith Lake]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

High Brother Lurker - great to see you back on the boards my friend.

I'm really psyched for this one as well. We should be able to get some definitive performance values for the community from SS's efforts here

Too bad they don't make a ~325 watt HPS (My understanding of the 300 LED's draw)

Good thing we have excel to normalize things in the end

I hope you made it to the end of the prior comparison, we did run a bunch of metrics - including your bud to total mass ratio suggestion, which was most interesting.

See you around the boards

 

[BootUmAll]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Would lve to see some kil-a-watt measurements of actual power usage for each tent

What he said [Vapoorize] usage could be calculated by measuring line consumption by taking each system in and out of consumption mode [turned on and off] and the current usage measured. You would have to do a D.O.E. but it could be done.

Oh and I'll be watching. reps to all of you until they stopped me!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Can't miss this one either Sun

This is what everyone has wanted to see for a long time.

We'll get some answers with this one. Damn fine idea and your the one to do it!

I've been wanting to do it for my own edification for a long time, but it's so much better having peeps like you participating!

thanks for the kind words my friend

What he said [Vapoorize] usage could be calculated by measuring line consumption by taking each system in and out of consumption mode [turned on and off] and the current usage measured. You would have to do a D.O.E. but it could be done.

Oh and I'll be watching. reps to all of you until they stopped me!

I'd like to avoid having to turn off everything in the house and using the power meter, but I can check each piece of gear individually with my hand-held meter that's associated with each tent and we can add things up.

Nice to meet you BOOTumALL!

Sorry 'bout your VK hybrids, such pretty plants.

B

This is starting to feel like a reunion

whattup b?

This what it takes to get you out of the woodwork?

the VK hybrids are fine, it's the LR2 males that were gettin all the love. No wonder the bastards flowered late, lol.

 

[Green007]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

... I hope you made it to the end of the prior comparison, we did run a bunch of metrics - including your bud to total mass ratio suggestion, which was most interesting. ...

Is there a link to this information?

This should be good.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Is there a link to this information?

This should be good.

Haight Solid State vs. H.G.LED

start reading on page 116

 

[DrDan]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

The coolest thread goin out there! Can't miss this one.
+ reps and many thanks in advance for all the data that will come out of this.

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

TL!

Long time no see, but your timing is impeccable .

So glad to see you again!

...It seems that 14" seems to be a popular distance to measure LED intensity. Is that some kind of unofficial industry standard?

Likewise, mate! Sorry to hear about your Lowryders. Sometimes, they don't Take It Easy!

Hmmm...well, there is no standard distance to measure intensity in the LED industry as far as I know. Sounds like someone did 'em at that range, and the herd mentality took care of the rest. (Same way we ended up calling 350ma LEDs '1 watt' after Phillips put out some of the first ones at that nominal amperage). Over in Europe they tend to measure in cm/M anyway.

I would like to record intensities at two distances minimum. What would you suggest?

I'll also record intensity at several points along a 30 x 30" grid.

Sounds good, in fact it's similar to what I've done in the past with HIDs, doing it with LEDs would be even better. Reminds me of the light reflector studies George F. Van Patten did in his book Gardening Indoors with H.I.D. Lights in the 90's, which is how I became a fan of Hydrofarm Sunburst reflectors. Have that text sitting in storage somewhere. (EDIT: found a scanned .pdf of it online now (torrent), will wonders never cease? If anyone wants a copy for reference and can't find it, PM me and I'll see what I can do...)

At this point, it's worth noting that a typical Lambertian LED lens, whether built-in or separate, does not distribute the light evenly over the entire stated angle, but rather tends to emit a majority of it within roughly the center 2/3 of its facing. So if you've got a 90 degree lens, once you get within about 15-20 degrees of the 'edges', actual intensity starts to fall off pretty quickly.

So mapping it out on a grid like you're planning will be very useful to look at actual drop-off near the periphery based on height.
----------------

If I was doing a few points, here's what I'd do:

At minimum, do readings at 1) 12" and 2) 24" high. That's basically 1) Top of your canopy with the fixture 12" over it, and 2) A foot of penetration down from there. If I was going to do a third point, it'd be 36". (So - 1, 2, and 3 feet from the bottom of the fixture). That covers almost all the usable area that we typically care about for growing.

Past that distance, it's not very practical. But for a 30" x 30" grid directly under the light, that'll give you all the info you need. Perfect to figure out the actual light blending that occurs between the individual (clustered) LEDs with a 90 degree lens.

Readings are taken at the top of the light meter of course, so if your meter was 1" deep, hanging the light at 13", 25", and 37" high and putting the meter flush to the floor will give you nigh-perfect readings for 1/2/3 ft.

-------------------
When doing the actual grid, didn't know if you had an idea on that yet. I'm a 'keep it simple' kinda guy, so for me it'd be something like this:

1) Get two pieces of large posterboard and tape 'em together
2) Mark the data points at each intersection (crosshairs(+), etc.) with a ruler
3) Call out the readings for each row, while your Lovely and Talented Assistant enters them in the book/laptop for you!

I always prefer closer points if I can get 'em - but, I'm also not doing the work here. My 'ideal' would be points on a 3" x 3" grid. That'll give you a great idea of the drop-off intensity at the edges when your light's closer to the plants and the garden's not fully illuminated, also.

AND, let's look at how many points we're actually talking about for each distance, based on the grid size:

3" x 3" grid (30" x 30" total) = 100 squares, 121 data points! (11 x 11)
4" x 4" grid (32" x 32" - add 2" to each side so you end on a data point) = 64 squares, 81 data points (9 x 9)
5" x 5" grid (30" x 30") = 36 squares, 49 data points (7 x 7)
6" x 6" grid (30" x 30") = 25 squares, 36 data points (6 x 6)

Multiply that for each distance you're doing.

Now, once you start doing 'em, it'll move pretty quickly - but will take some time.
---
Also: while you don't necessarily need readings on a grid for this, personally I'd be interested in at least a snapshot of the LED hanging at 6" high with the grid underneath it, so as to have a visual representation of the expected coverage of the mid-late flower 'blast-em without bleaching-em' range.

Which is where I'd hang them all the time if I can get away with it...
--------------------

Realistically, you can probably do a larger grid (4-5" square) and still get some pretty decent data, the drop-off at the edges will just be a little less clear-cut. Unless you're up for doing 363 data points in the name of Science and Consumer Reporting--!

Hope that helps, SS....

---------------------------------

High Brother Lurker - great to see you back on the boards my friend.
Too bad they don't make a ~325 watt HPS (My understanding of the 300 LED's draw)

Good thing we have excel to normalize things in the end

I hope you made it to the end of the prior comparison, we did run a bunch of metrics - including your bud to total mass ratio suggestion, which was most interesting.

See you around the boards

Cheers Soniq. Nice to see how much difference that makes in the final biomass numbers. Interesting Is the Word (not Greece ). Excel is the great equalizer there.

I think Mike's site lists 360W for this unit - we'll see if that's on the money. Does make me a little concerned about the thermal management, to be honest. Spent several years in product management for power and electrical distribution components, which gave me a healthy respect for that sort of thing, awhile back...

Regards,

-TL

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

That helps a ton! Excellent and thorough response TL, thank you!

I have 30 x 30" plastic trays in the bottom of my tents, and I was going to use small sticky labels to mark the points.

One thing though, I want to do the same for the HID side, with glass and without, so those data points would be tripled for this project.

I'm not sure my talented and lovely assistant is going to hang for that, lol.

What would be a reasonable granularity labor-wise, that will still provide good data?

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

That helps a ton! Excellent and thorough response TL, thank you!

I have 30 x 30" plastic trays in the bottom of my tents, and I was going to use small sticky labels to mark the points.

You're most welcome, SS!

...Ah, gotcha. Not sure if you mean you're planning to take readings directly in the tent using the tray with the lights hanging above, or you'd move the trays out to a clear space to record the readings. With either of those options:

1) Recording the light readings in the tent will get you data specific to that environment - i.e. higher level light readings from reflected surface radiant energy in addition to that which comes direct from the fixture. It'd be good for this particular test (and for anyone using these lights in the same tents), but not universally applicable.

2) Doing the readings in an open space (the light reflector studies were done in a room painted flat black for readings, and the LED manufacturers use a similar, very controlled spherical testing space for this - probably not necessary here, as we're not trying to be Albert 'Fricken' Einstein (Hey, who knew 'Fricken' was his middle name? )) will get you base level data you can more universally and reliably apply to other situations.

Either way, you get useful info - as long as you know what you want to shoot for.

One thing though, I want to do the same for the HID side, with glass and without, so those data points would be tripled for this project...What would be a reasonable granularity labor-wise, that will still provide good data?

Oy, that's a lot of work, mate! Rob needs to send you a decent Christmas present this year for that...

In that case, I'd suggest going with a 6" x 6" grid. That will get us information that's statistically significant enough to make some educated observations from, and not be too labor-intensive. Can probably do at least three distances in under an hour (108 readings) or more when you're set up properly.

Any wider (7.5" x 7.5" or 10" x 10"), and you just don't have enough points for good information, esp. at the edges.
------
As far as readings with glass go, most tempered glass used for that purpose will reduce intensity in the ~8%-10% (max) range. (studies have shown about 4% of visible light gets trapped entering the air-glass barrier, and another 4% upon exit back from glass->air). There are a few solar thermal windows with specially treated panes on the market that improve the loss factor (i.e. it's less) down to ~4-5%, but that's a specialty item you're not going to find in a typical HID glass cover).

I've used glass partitions before in addition to a reflector cover as you know, and like them, esp. when you're trying to get your light very close (2-3") to your plants. Better irradiance levels more than make up for any losses due to using the glass, IMO.
-----
If you're going to do readings for the HID as well (both covered and not), might I suggest the following:

* Do readings at each distance with the glass OFF
* Do readings at only ONE distance with the glass ON (say, 3ft)
* Compare the 3ft readings off vs. on, and use a factor to fill in the other points. Should be rather consistent across the board - and save you some work.

...I'm not even going to ask if you're planning to do separate readings with the HPS AND MH--!

At least, you'll only have to do them once...

-TL

P.S. Maybe your lovely and talented assistant will get a nice date night out of this...or a spa certificate, perhaps? ...

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Also, while I'm still remembering it, a quick aside to the mods and admins:

With the creation of this new forum category, I seem to have noticed a rather marked drop-off in views to the threads here, similar to the short-lived LED Forum experiment. As someone who's run a few boards of my own in the past, might I suggest the following:

1) Moving the active threads back to the Journals in Progress area for now. Looks like folks are still confused about viewing these journals, and would find them much easier in JIP, and ensure significantly greater exposure.
2) Perhaps even sticky these two threads (i.e. SS's and Be Irie's comparisions - the ones still in progress) near the bottom of the sticky topics (right above the most recent posts). There's plenty of space for two more temporarily, without over-stickying the front page. Un-sticky them when they're done to free up space for the perennial stickys.
3) Once the threads are completed, move them back to the Consumer Reports area for posterity. Over time, with more products reviewed, this area will grow and become a very useful resource for everyone, as it was intended.

This should help to do the following:

a) Make sure the maximum number of people can view and benefit from these threads. These are definitely a great community service to the folks here, and deserve to be front-and-center where they can be found by everyone.
b) Provide greater visibility for any paying sponsor's products involved in the testing.
c) If you're doing CPM/impression advertising (as it appears), this'll help increase board revenue, also. Those servers have to run on something--!

SS's last thread got nearly 100,000 views--! Based on the total number of posts in it, that's pretty impressive (views/post). Has a much higher view/post count than even Pit's or Irishboy's great journals, which shows the huge demand and need for this information. Would hate to see this or Irie's thread buried (and lost) in the shuffle...

A side benefit will be greater SEO (search engine optimization) exposure for 420 Magazine from Google/Yahoo!/Bing, and having new people find this board, also - which helps us all.
--------------------
What do you guys think?

-TL

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

You're most welcome, SS!

...Ah, gotcha. Not sure if you mean you're planning to take readings directly in the tent using the tray with the lights hanging above, or you'd move the trays out to a clear space to record the readings. With either of those options:

1) Recording the light readings in the tent will get you data specific to that environment - i.e. higher level light readings from reflected surface radiant energy in addition to that which comes direct from the fixture. It'd be good for this particular test (and for anyone using these lights in the same tents), but not universally applicable.

2) Doing the readings in an open space (the light reflector studies were done in a room painted flat black for readings, and the LED manufacturers use a similar, very controlled spherical testing space for this - probably not necessary here, as we're not trying to be Albert 'Fricken' Einstein (Hey, who knew 'Fricken' was his middle name? )) will get you base level data you can more universally and reliably apply to other situations.

Either way, you get useful info - as long as you know what you want to shoot for.

I normally do use the plastic trays in the bottom of the tents, so I was just going to use them as templates, but I'm interested in gathering the data within the grow environment, so the recordings will be taken inside the tents.

Oy, that's a lot of work, mate! Rob needs to send you a decent Christmas present this year for that...

This grow is going to be a lot of work, but I want to take advantage of the situation and do my best to extract as much info as possible. Once the grid is done and I have my game down a bit, I'll be measuring watts/lux on lotsa stuff .

In that case, I'd suggest going with a 6" x 6" grid. That will get us information that's statistically significant enough to make some educated observations from, and not be too labor-intensive. Can probably do at least three distances in under an hour (108 readings) or more when you're set up properly.

Any wider (7.5" x 7.5" or 10" x 10"), and you just don't have enough points for good information, esp. at the edges.

------

Sounds good TL. I really can't go with 3" x 3" because it's too much labor, and 4" x 4" is a problem because I can't add the extra two inches with my rigid 30" trays, so I think I'll go with 5" X 5" or 6" x 6".

I've used glass partitions before in addition to a reflector cover as you know, and like them, esp. when you're trying to get your light very close (2-3") to your plants. Better irradiance levels more than make up for any losses due to using the glass, IMO.

Not just your opinion, but seems to be the general consensus among the cognoscenti.

In any case, I had no choice but to use the glass. The HID tent was running 12-14 over ambient of 85F without air-cooling the hood, and the weather is probably going to get hotter during this grow.


-----

If you're going to do readings for the HID as well (both covered and not), might I suggest the following:

* Do readings at each distance with the glass OFF
* Do readings at only ONE distance with the glass ON (say, 3ft)
* Compare the 3ft readings off vs. on, and use a factor to fill in the other points. Should be rather consistent across the board - and save you some work.

...I'm not even going to ask if you're planning to do separate readings with the HPS AND MH--!

At least, you'll only have to do them once...

Thanks for the labor-saving tip on the glass reading!

Yes, I would like to do separate readings for the MH and HPS, and if I'm feeling particularly ambitious on switch-to-HPS day, I may do more than one HPS bulb.

thanks so much for taking the time to help and for providing such detailed and useful info and suggestions!
-TL

P.S. Maybe your lovely and talented assistant will get a nice date night out of this...or a spa certificate, perhaps? ...[/QUOTE]

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

grow setup

Soler & Palau TDX-100 2-speed fans, wired at the higher speed for 135 cfm.

The ducts going into the attic allow me to vent the hot air out of the garage in the summer, or disconnect them and allow the exhaust to heat the garage in winter.

The ducts going up are fairly straight, smooth, and add no significant static pressure to the system, as temps increase by < 0.5F when they're hooked up.

When I'm not venting up into the attic, I put the PVC elbows on the fans for a couple reasons. They help circulate the air in the garage better than just blowing it straight up at the ceiling, they add no significant restriction to flow as they cause no increase in temps, and last but not least, they provide me with a nice cool breeze in the grow room .

Clean, simple, effective and quiet.

I found that changing the 4" duct from the flexible ribbed stuff to the semi-flexible smooth variety dropped my temps by almost 2 degrees. If any part of your run can be replaced with this kind of duct, it's probably worth it.

I had a 6" hood, and 4" fan and carbon filter. Using the 4" to 6" adapters and 6" ducting helped drop static pressure and allows the fan to run more efficiently. If I need to drop temps more, I can replace the 4" filter with a 6" and gain a bit more flow.

Both lights are connected to the digital timer on the left, so they're switched identically. The mechanical timer on the right is for my cab.

That's it for now.

I've got some heat test data to post and some pics of the seedlings that I'm growing as moms for this grow.

thanks for following!

 

[Lemon Paradise]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

wow,, very neat, clean, effecient, and refessional.. , beautiful,, (like always)

outside the tens though,,, wow,, what a maze of wires..ll,, that hook, under that certificate, next to the ballasts,,, that's alot of wires...

 

[Green007]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

It's starting!

 

[hydronewbie]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

...and remember kids, don't try this at home. This experiment is obviously the work of trained professionals. Or professionals in training. SS you've moved on to working with the big boys, congratulations. This looks like a very sophisticated and expensive experiment. I guess I'm stuck in the small-time frame of mind. I appreciate Lurker's input but I don't have scientific education and training and this is all starting to go over my head. I don't usually like to brag about my stupidity, but I'll make an exception in this case. I'll be peering in from time-to-time. Later.

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

see this is why i love when you test things out! just amazing brother! LETS SHOW SOME LOVE WITH +REP'S FOR HIS HARD WORK
[

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

...and remember kids, don't try this at home. This experiment is obviously the work of trained professionals. Or professionals in training. SS you've moved on to working with the big boys, congratulations. This looks like a very sophisticated and expensive experiment. I guess I'm stuck in the small-time frame of mind. I appreciate Lurker's input but I don't have scientific education and training and this is all starting to go over my head. I don't usually like to brag about my stupidity, but I'll make an exception in this case. I'll be peering in from time-to-time. Later.

Aw, c'mon HN, don't be like dat bro .

I go to lots of websites and often read things I can't fully understand or follow. I just take what I want, or what I can, and leave the rest.

And if it's something that I'm interested enough in, I research it and try to learn more.

For instance, until TL mentioned "Lambertian LED lens", I had never heard of the term, and I'm interested enough to expend some energy finding out about it rather than expend the same energy bemoaning why people are using terms I'm not familiar with.

I do believe that it's possible to explain everything in simple terms if one truly understands what they're talking about, but not everyone has the ability to break things down like that, and it's unreasonable for me to expect that from everyone.

In any case, if I'm able, I'd be happy to try to clarify or simplify anything people might have questions about.

We don't need to know detailed info on light intensities to grow plants, but this is an opportunity to acquire good data, so I'd like to take advantage.

I sure hope we don't lose any people following if things get technical. The rabbit hole goes deep if we want to dig, but basically it's a simple comparison grow that I'm hoping should provide useful info for one and all.

thanks bro, glad you're here and please don't hesitate to ask if I can help clarify something.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

TEMPERATURE TESTS

Temp sensors, for both the fluorescent display and the indoor/outdoor thermometers are secured at mid-point in the tents on the back right frame members.

The higher temps with the circulation fans on is probably due to better blending of the air inside the tents and is probably more reliable indicator of average temp than having the circ fans turned off.

I'm not able to explain the discrepancy in the ambient (in) readings on the digital thermometers. I switched their positions and the readings stayed the same.

Will report on power consumption later tonight.

stay tuned and thanks for following!


p.s. I just noticed I used "GHL" instead of "GLH" to abbreviate GrowLEDHydro. Will fix this on future postings.

 

[Green007]

Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

SettingSun, forgive my ignorance please. Where are the sensor readings coming from? The display on top (the Acu-rite meters) has "In" and "Out" temps with RH. Where is the "In" sensor and where is the "Out" sensor? Then the display on the bottom (the black box) has Temp and where is that sensor?

You said all sensors are located at the same location in the tents, yet you get 3 different readings? Is that the discrepancy you are referring to? Or am I miss understanding something?

Sorry if I am just not getting it.