300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration
- Thread starter Keith Lake
- Start date
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
What I'm curious about is at what distance each light will be from the canopy when I adjust light heights so that each set of plants has an equal temperature change from the ambient temp in their respective tents.
What are the implications and consequences of the lights having their sweet spots at different heights?
I guess whichever light needs to be closer would be delivering less light energy at equal distance, but I'm baked and it's making my head hurt trying to figure out if that has any significant implication, or whether it's just my rambling state of bakedness
.
Using a physiological process like leaf transpiration, in real time, as a meter for optimizing light placement is a very cool thing, IMO.
What I'm curious about is at what distance each light will be from the canopy when I adjust light heights so that each set of plants has an equal temperature change from the ambient temp in their respective tents.
What are the implications and consequences of the lights having their sweet spots at different heights?
I guess whichever light needs to be closer would be delivering less light energy at equal distance, but I'm baked and it's making my head hurt trying to figure out if that has any significant implication, or whether it's just my rambling state of bakedness
.Using a physiological process like leaf transpiration, in real time, as a meter for optimizing light placement is a very cool thing, IMO.
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
There's lots of great peeps onboard for this ride.
glad you're among them Herb
Reading this journal is like going to school...
oh, and
great laugh on a Friday morning.
There's lots of great peeps onboard for this ride.
glad you're among them Herb
The Lurker
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Da boyz got all de kool toyz! I want one!
(Thx brother Zen) 
....Especially when you smoke THIS MUCH!!!
I have climbed Mount Bud...and it was good!
-TL
Da boyz got all de kool toyz! I want one!
Yeah, well, uh...sorry 'bout that, mate! I really should smoke before I write...bad habit postin' sober n'all, I know. Better do somethin' 'bout that!Reading this journal is like going to school...
(Thx brother Zen) lol, even when your baked you make good sense!
+reps brother
....Especially when you smoke THIS MUCH!!!
I have climbed Mount Bud...and it was good!
-TL
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Yeah I bet this house smells strong..
Yeah I bet this house smells strong..
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Using the thermometer to set light distance within the suggested range seems like a very good thing, although it's kind of like using a GPS for driving. If the numbers are in range, but the plants are telling me I'm driving into a lake, I'd listen to the plants.
If we know what heat and light stress look like, and we watch for it, it's not at the high end of the range that the IR thermometer will be most useful, but at the low end, where we've got the light too far away and could bring it down closer without stressing our plants.
I don't think using the IR thermometer to compare LED to HID as far as sweet spot distance to canopy would be very useful since the technologies are so different. The only consequence I can think of as far as significantly different distances to canopy is that the light that's closer would give a grower some additional headroom without stressing/burning the plants.
Even adding light intensity to the temp readings doesn't really add solid qualitative info, or which light is "better", since they are such dissimilar technologies.
Measuring the effective footprint by how the light intensity decreases on a grid is an independent issue and we should be able to directly compare one light to the other as regards that, but IMO, it's not going to be easy to directly compare much else, except for the yields and smoke report.
thanks Green007!
I appreciate your posts and positive energy
lol, even when your baked you make good sense!
+reps brother
Using the thermometer to set light distance within the suggested range seems like a very good thing, although it's kind of like using a GPS for driving. If the numbers are in range, but the plants are telling me I'm driving into a lake, I'd listen to the plants.
If we know what heat and light stress look like, and we watch for it, it's not at the high end of the range that the IR thermometer will be most useful, but at the low end, where we've got the light too far away and could bring it down closer without stressing our plants.
I don't think using the IR thermometer to compare LED to HID as far as sweet spot distance to canopy would be very useful since the technologies are so different. The only consequence I can think of as far as significantly different distances to canopy is that the light that's closer would give a grower some additional headroom without stressing/burning the plants.
Even adding light intensity to the temp readings doesn't really add solid qualitative info, or which light is "better", since they are such dissimilar technologies.
Measuring the effective footprint by how the light intensity decreases on a grid is an independent issue and we should be able to directly compare one light to the other as regards that, but IMO, it's not going to be easy to directly compare much else, except for the yields and smoke report.
thanks Green007!
I appreciate your posts and positive energy
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
wow, that a lot of trimming, lol
wow, that a lot of trimming, lol
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
It would take me more then a month...
It would take me more then a month...
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Hopefully, the rest of them will root shortly and I can plant them into something.
I have to leave town next weekend, so I need to plant them into something that will be OK to leave alone for 3 days. I know that's a tall order since they're so small, but any ideas?
I'm thinking I may have no choice but to plant them in soil in at least 8" pots, water them well, and hope for the best. Then if they survive, I wouldn't be able to use Hempy buckets for the comparison because I don't want to transplant out of soil into Hempy, so I'd just do a soil grow.
At least I found a cloning method that works for me, with much appreciated guidance from bel and TL.
Should I let the roots grow out more before I plant them?
Any ideas on what to do with them so they can survive three days alone about a week from now?
Hopefully, the rest of them will root shortly and I can plant them into something.
I have to leave town next weekend, so I need to plant them into something that will be OK to leave alone for 3 days. I know that's a tall order since they're so small, but any ideas?
I'm thinking I may have no choice but to plant them in soil in at least 8" pots, water them well, and hope for the best. Then if they survive, I wouldn't be able to use Hempy buckets for the comparison because I don't want to transplant out of soil into Hempy, so I'd just do a soil grow.
At least I found a cloning method that works for me, with much appreciated guidance from bel and TL.
Should I let the roots grow out more before I plant them?
Any ideas on what to do with them so they can survive three days alone about a week from now?
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
I transplanted the mom into a Hempy bucket because I was having to water her way too often, she loves the Hempy, and now we're approaching critical mass.
She won't fit in there pretty soon unless I do more tying and/or pruning.
Should I take some cuts to thin her out?
As I mentioned on the previous post, I'll have to leave the grow for three days or so in about a week, so if I take cuts now, I don't know if they would make it or not, but I need to do something.
any suggestions would be very appreciated.
I have the 8 PPP clones that just started rooting, I have this mom outgrowing the cab, and I'm leaving for three days in about a week.
help
I transplanted the mom into a Hempy bucket because I was having to water her way too often, she loves the Hempy, and now we're approaching critical mass.
She won't fit in there pretty soon unless I do more tying and/or pruning.
Should I take some cuts to thin her out?
As I mentioned on the previous post, I'll have to leave the grow for three days or so in about a week, so if I take cuts now, I don't know if they would make it or not, but I need to do something.
any suggestions would be very appreciated.
I have the 8 PPP clones that just started rooting, I have this mom outgrowing the cab, and I'm leaving for three days in about a week.
help
Propa Gator
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
How about wicking fabric leading to a small res? Like Emilies Garden
Or coco transplant straight up. Coir is the best for any set-up but constant trickle like WaterFarms. Most water retention/availability. Air spaces nearly good as hydroton. Perlite? Fugedaboutit
You don't need to understand why it works so well, just do it- you can thank me later.
Don't worry that it's hairy and ugly... it works beautiful
Put the weedwacker to work on the burly mama. You will have to prune at some point short of six foot, sooner is better. Pruning thick stalks if you wait too long can kill the plant. In two weeks or less, more shoots will be available.
Scouts honor
How about wicking fabric leading to a small res? Like Emilies Garden
Or coco transplant straight up. Coir is the best for any set-up but constant trickle like WaterFarms. Most water retention/availability. Air spaces nearly good as hydroton. Perlite? Fugedaboutit
You don't need to understand why it works so well, just do it- you can thank me later.
Don't worry that it's hairy and ugly... it works beautiful
Put the weedwacker to work on the burly mama. You will have to prune at some point short of six foot, sooner is better. Pruning thick stalks if you wait too long can kill the plant. In two weeks or less, more shoots will be available.
Scouts honor
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Coco is very good idea, and I have some already. They just started selling it at the local OSH, along with a few other grow supplies, like Floranova, Hydroton, and PH up-down kits, which tells me that a whole *lot* of people are growing.
Hairy and ugly but works, eh? Not even gonna go there, lol.
Sorry I didn't get those leaf temps for you yet. Will do today. You meant on the clones, right? I can't do it through the dome, so I'm going to have to take the dome off and do it fast before the temps change from having the dome off.
Should be doable that way since it only take a second or so to obtain a reading, but if you had something else in mind, let me know. I can do same on the Sunset Kush girls if you want also.
thanks for your help bro!
Coco is very good idea, and I have some already. They just started selling it at the local OSH, along with a few other grow supplies, like Floranova, Hydroton, and PH up-down kits, which tells me that a whole *lot* of people are growing.
Hairy and ugly but works, eh? Not even gonna go there, lol.
Sorry I didn't get those leaf temps for you yet. Will do today. You meant on the clones, right? I can't do it through the dome, so I'm going to have to take the dome off and do it fast before the temps change from having the dome off.
Should be doable that way since it only take a second or so to obtain a reading, but if you had something else in mind, let me know. I can do same on the Sunset Kush girls if you want also.
thanks for your help bro!
420warriors
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
SS, I don't konw if this would work but thought maybe a tray with perlite or coco and the rapid rooters in the medium up off the bottom so you could leave some water in it. Like a hempy tray,the roots would seek the water but won't drink much and be ready to transplant into hempy buckets when you get back.
SS, I don't konw if this would work but thought maybe a tray with perlite or coco and the rapid rooters in the medium up off the bottom so you could leave some water in it. Like a hempy tray,the roots would seek the water but won't drink much and be ready to transplant into hempy buckets when you get back.
Propa Gator
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
My request for leaf temps came from not knowing the data you shared in post #256. Delta T looks like a principle relationship worth keeping in mind, even without the specific readings. Heat for vaporization comes from somewhere, right?
I believe that plants must throw water into the air to draw up more from the roots, bringing with it dissolved salt nutes. So, the sooner you chuck the dome the better, IMO. 70% RH isn't bad, but 50 or 40 better.
I need a few of your gadjets and gauges to get with the empirical program. Are numbers and artistic appreciation mutually exclusive? I use numbers to rationalise or justify whatever I like or don't like. Sweet sounding music as opposed to most tempered scale chords, for illustration. Much piano music has alot of notes, which obscures the unavoidable dissonance. For understanding, I read about Bachs' twelfth root of two
Plants have a triple Phd in biochemistry, but mercifully keep the details to themselves.
What's an OSH, a mainstream garden supply? If so, to stock these items at all is a surprise. In late Aug? Oh, yeah
My request for leaf temps came from not knowing the data you shared in post #256. Delta T looks like a principle relationship worth keeping in mind, even without the specific readings. Heat for vaporization comes from somewhere, right?
I believe that plants must throw water into the air to draw up more from the roots, bringing with it dissolved salt nutes. So, the sooner you chuck the dome the better, IMO. 70% RH isn't bad, but 50 or 40 better.
I need a few of your gadjets and gauges to get with the empirical program. Are numbers and artistic appreciation mutually exclusive? I use numbers to rationalise or justify whatever I like or don't like. Sweet sounding music as opposed to most tempered scale chords, for illustration. Much piano music has alot of notes, which obscures the unavoidable dissonance. For understanding, I read about Bachs' twelfth root of two
Plants have a triple Phd in biochemistry, but mercifully keep the details to themselves.
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Well, I need something that retains water really well, so I think my choices are soil or coco, unless I set up a passive hydro wick system as 420warrior suggested.
Temps are coming down, so that will help, but I'm thinking the best bet for three days unattended would be either soil or coco in at least a 1.5-2 gallon pot.
I'm leaning towards coco.
If this set of clones doesn't make it, at least I now have a cloning method that works for me, so I can take another set, but I'd like to save these if possible.
Well, I need something that retains water really well, so I think my choices are soil or coco, unless I set up a passive hydro wick system as 420warrior suggested.
Temps are coming down, so that will help, but I'm thinking the best bet for three days unattended would be either soil or coco in at least a 1.5-2 gallon pot.
I'm leaning towards coco.
If this set of clones doesn't make it, at least I now have a cloning method that works for me, so I can take another set, but I'd like to save these if possible.
The Lurker
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Cheers mate. You're doing great!
I was just going to suggest using straight coco but PG here beat me to it. Check your PMs SS, I'll be sending you a link that's right up your alley. Should be perfect for ~3 days. Once they've rooted in coco it'd be easy to move them to some version of Hempy after this (either straight Perlite or a P/C mix) with no ill effects. Nice to see OSH is now carrying this stuff! They've got online coupons, too.
Hairy and ugly...that's just too easy. (insert off-color joke here) 
Take those cuts now, they'll be just about ready to stand up on their own by the time you gotta go! Coco everything you've got and put the newest clones in ~16oz cups, see the PM...
Sounds like some of the professors I had in college. Those Who Can Do, Can't Teach.
Some folks are better left to their labs than in the classroom...
Yes, that'd be interesting to see. I agree with your general comments earlier about heat also. I'm curious to see what the temps are like at the top of the LED and the bottom of the HPS, in any case - just to see where the heat is. Don't expect it to be all that hot from the LEDs once it goes through the heatsink and fans, just am curious to see what the actual exhaust temps are.
Light bleaching would be PPFD intensity/wavelength and oxidative damage from photoinhibition related, and fall outside direct temp readings as you said, but showing radiative heat readings from the HPS within 0-12" from the bottom (outside of leaf temps) would show some folks how close they can get 'em before cooking 'em. The real sun doesn't get hotter and significantly more intense as the plants grow towards it--!
One of the primary benefits of LED seems to be that lack of radiative heat downwards, which in HPS tends to cook off/degrade trichomes in flowering (light/heat related decomposition) like Prop mentioned, esp. when lights are close. It's always a steady-state or dynamic equilibrium between production and degradation, the latter of which LED helps to avoid, so more trichomes become available at harvest. Good for us!
------
Which is where some UV-B in low doses can become useful, if used within the last 1-2 weeks, to help 'turn' trichomes (some say 'ripen', but degrade is a better word for it.) Not necessary much of the time, but in certain situations...
Don't have that particular study in front of me, but the university research showed that UV (mostly -B and -C, not -A) would pass through clear trichomes without much attenuation/absorption (i.e. unimpeded), but absorbed quite well when they're cloudy - and that resultant absorption turned them amber (produced degradation). Once they're cloudy, it happens pretty quick, too. A couple of days might be all that's needed to get a plant from just cloudy to cloudy/amber in your desired proportion.
I've seen NO evidence so far that UV produces more trichomes in plants, it only seems to turn them. So depending on what state one considers 'ripe' for harvest to be, it might help you cut them down sooner if they're cloudy, and still aren't turning yet (and you have a desire for more CBN/CBD/couchlock).
(Note: CBD is a precursor to THC; CBN is a primary degradation product of THC)
Maybe that's why some folks think it helps resin production; it can produce more of a 'stoned' feeling people may attribute with being 'stronger'. For resin production, I'd look at having sufficient light/IR instead (help the plant with its overall photosynthesis) and feed it properly.
-TL
Cheers mate. You're doing great!
How about wicking fabric leading to a small res? Like Emilies Garden
Or coco transplant straight up. Coir is the best for any set-up but constant trickle like WaterFarms. Most water retention/availability. Air spaces nearly good as hydroton. Perlite? Fugedaboutit
You don't need to understand why it works so well, just do it- you can thank me later.
Don't worry that it's hairy and ugly... it works beautiful
Put the weedwacker to work on the burly mama. You will have to prune at some point short of six foot, sooner is better. Pruning thick stalks if you wait too long can kill the plant. In two weeks or less, more shoots will be available.
Scouts honor
I was just going to suggest using straight coco but PG here beat me to it. Check your PMs SS, I'll be sending you a link that's right up your alley. Should be perfect for ~3 days. Once they've rooted in coco it'd be easy to move them to some version of Hempy after this (either straight Perlite or a P/C mix) with no ill effects. Nice to see OSH is now carrying this stuff! They've got online coupons, too.
Hairy and ugly...that's just too easy.
(insert off-color joke here) Take those cuts now, they'll be just about ready to stand up on their own by the time you gotta go! Coco everything you've got and put the newest clones in ~16oz cups, see the PM...
Sounds like some of the professors I had in college. Those Who Can Do, Can't Teach.
Some folks are better left to their labs than in the classroom...Yes, that'd be interesting to see. I agree with your general comments earlier about heat also. I'm curious to see what the temps are like at the top of the LED and the bottom of the HPS, in any case - just to see where the heat is. Don't expect it to be all that hot from the LEDs once it goes through the heatsink and fans, just am curious to see what the actual exhaust temps are.
Light bleaching would be PPFD intensity/wavelength and oxidative damage from photoinhibition related, and fall outside direct temp readings as you said, but showing radiative heat readings from the HPS within 0-12" from the bottom (outside of leaf temps) would show some folks how close they can get 'em before cooking 'em. The real sun doesn't get hotter and significantly more intense as the plants grow towards it--!
One of the primary benefits of LED seems to be that lack of radiative heat downwards, which in HPS tends to cook off/degrade trichomes in flowering (light/heat related decomposition) like Prop mentioned, esp. when lights are close. It's always a steady-state or dynamic equilibrium between production and degradation, the latter of which LED helps to avoid, so more trichomes become available at harvest. Good for us!
------
Which is where some UV-B in low doses can become useful, if used within the last 1-2 weeks, to help 'turn' trichomes (some say 'ripen', but degrade is a better word for it.) Not necessary much of the time, but in certain situations...
Don't have that particular study in front of me, but the university research showed that UV (mostly -B and -C, not -A) would pass through clear trichomes without much attenuation/absorption (i.e. unimpeded), but absorbed quite well when they're cloudy - and that resultant absorption turned them amber (produced degradation). Once they're cloudy, it happens pretty quick, too. A couple of days might be all that's needed to get a plant from just cloudy to cloudy/amber in your desired proportion.
I've seen NO evidence so far that UV produces more trichomes in plants, it only seems to turn them. So depending on what state one considers 'ripe' for harvest to be, it might help you cut them down sooner if they're cloudy, and still aren't turning yet (and you have a desire for more CBN/CBD/couchlock).
(Note: CBD is a precursor to THC; CBN is a primary degradation product of THC)
Maybe that's why some folks think it helps resin production; it can produce more of a 'stoned' feeling people may attribute with being 'stronger'. For resin production, I'd look at having sufficient light/IR instead (help the plant with its overall photosynthesis) and feed it properly.
-TL
The Lurker
New Member
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Close - Romulus.
TheLurker - I suspected you were from Vulcan.
Close - Romulus.
Re: 420 Consumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID
Yes Lurker... I use simple clear Incandescent light bulbs for this (end of flowering) degradation effect your are speaking of...
Personally UV anything is a little too dangerous for me and my girls...lol....I get much better results with the clear inc's..
Great post + reps if I can bro...
Yes Lurker... I use simple clear Incandescent light bulbs for this (end of flowering) degradation effect your are speaking of...
Personally UV anything is a little too dangerous for me and my girls...lol....I get much better results with the clear inc's..
Great post + reps if I can bro...
