Stunted growth - a repeating problem I can not solve

[plan500]

Dear fellow growers,

I need your help to figure out a problem with my plants that has been following me for the last 6 grows. I am running a mid-sized operation and It is a repeating problem that I just can’t seem to understand and resolve.

It all goes normal with the seedlings, they are growing well with a light color of the leaves and no visible problems. However, as I approach week 3 of Veg the leaves start to get a darker shade. I have tried to withhold any feeding and wait for them to get lighter but they never do. They never get light but rather darker and when I eventually feed them only the new growth/ top become a bit lighter. I have tried different feeding approaches(more/less) both with the young plants and also later in veg but the result is always the same - dark droopy leaves, clawing and generally a very stunted growth. I have top dressed with worm castings, made teas with just a temporary effect.

Recently I made an observation that the plants don’t develop a very good root system (yes, I could have checked this earlier) . In early veg roots are white, but not that thick or dense. After repot the new roots also appear white. The pictures show the plants in their week 8 of VEG, that is 4 weeks after repotting and the roots don’t seem to be strong or dense. You can also see that the plants are very small for 8 weeks growing.

Later in bloom the roots get brownish and plants start to get yellow with dying leaver starting from week 4 until the end. Plans don’t handle strong light and don’t drink as much. Harvests are poor and generally low quality.

I have posted pictures of a current batch in VEG and in BLOOM. You can see that the roots of both batches are not right. Is this root rot?
I am beginning to think that the problem is not caused by feeding schedule or environment but rather watering and lack of oxygen. I water every other day and generally have a good observation how much they drink every 48h. However, I might have overwatered on repot and didn’t water them for 5-6 days until they got light. Could that single overwatering start a root rot? Also, would you suggest to put pot elevators and additional perlite to the light mix?

Any suggestions and comments with regards to prevention and current actions are welcomed. I really need your help as this has been happening the last one year and I am running out of ideas and resources.


Environment: Sealed room, CO2 enriched (more info in the attached table)
Media: Plagron Lightmix (preloaded with mineral nutrients for 1-2 weeks at most)
Media pH: 5.8-6.4 (measured with a BlueLab multimedia probe.)
Nutes: Plagron Alga Grow/Bloom (100% organic, seaweed based) (find attached a veg feeding schedule)
Pots: ½ gallon (2L) for the first 3-4 weeks then repot into 2.5 gallon (10L)
VEG/BLOOM: 8 weeks veg and 9 weeks bloom
Lights room1: Chinese LED bar lights with Samsung LH281H chips (cold, warm and UV)
Lights room2: Quantum boards (fotops 800) with Samsung LM301B 3500/4000K
Light schedule VEG: 18/6
Water source: ph 7-8, 60 ppm, filtered through a chlorine filter
Seeds: Skunk XL from Royal Queen Seeds.

 

[Azimuth]

Your veg plants look pretty healthy, but your flowering plants look like they have run out of gas. Your roots don't look like they are suffering from root rot although what you describe are classic symptoms of overwatering.

I'm not familiar with your nutes, but I assume you are feeding according to the manufacturer's instructions?

the result is always the same - dark droopy leaves, clawing and generally a very stunted growth.

This is a classic overwatering symptom, though clawing and dark green leaves can also be too much nitrogen.

I water every other day

Watering should be done when the pot feels unusually, and surprisingly light, not on a schedule.

Could that single overwatering start a root rot?

No. Technically, you can't overwater a plant. We call it that but what is really going on is a lack of oxygen to the roots. In veg in a traditional pot, you should thoroughly water the pot to saturation and then let it dry out before watering again.

would you suggest to put pot elevators and additional perlite to the light mix?

Your roots are not as thick as one would expect to see on those size plants. I would suggest either learning to water correctly with a wet/dry cycle, or skip that learning curve altogether and join a few of us that have switched over to SIPs (sub irrigated planters). They eliminate the watering issue altogether by providing a reservoir below the plant, but also provide constant air to the roots eliminating what we call overwatering but is really a lack of O2.

Another alternative is to use @Bill284 's method of adding perlite layers to your standard mix to help with drainage.

 

[tjp]

I had this problem when I first started growing indoors, I was over watering, and overfeeding nutrients. I now water the day after I see leaves are wilting, and I cut feeding down to a few times during the entire grow. I also switched to cloth pots which helps from overwatering

 

[Roy Growin]

Hi - the feeding schedule calculator on Plagron.com says:

Light Mix - Up to 5ml/L Terra Grow in veg, 5ml/L Terra Bloom after flip [plus a few additives]

So I am wondering 1/ whether the Alga is the correct line of nutes to use for that substrate
2/ why you are using less than half strength throughout?
When you water, are you watering the whole pot thoroughly - if not, that can cause spindly roots

 

[tjp]

Not sure on the nutes I use happy frog potting soil in 3 gallon cloth bags I do not clone I geminate in glass of water then use root grow to moisten soil then put seeds directly in the soil I don't water or feed anything until the 3rd week then I will feed Pro Grow 15 ml mixed with 3 gallons of water. I use a solo cup and feed two cups until flowering then I go to 4 cups. Then just plain water ph of 6.9 to 6.5. Then week 5 I will feed another 15ml. Then week 6 I will switch to 12-12 and after first week of 12-12 I feed Pro bloom 20ml to 4 gallons of water, and then week 4 I will feed 15 ml to 4 gallons of water, after that nothing but water until week 7 then I feed fish Sh!t 6ml to a gallon of water. Then until harvest nothing but water. With the autos I do no pruning at all if you stress them auto is slows them down and can cause them to herm. That has been my experience when pruning.

 

[plan500]

Your veg plants look pretty healthy, but your flowering plants look like they have run out of gas. Your roots don't look like they are suffering from root rot although what you describe are classic symptoms of overwatering.

I'm not familiar with your nutes, but I assume you are feeding according to the manufacturer's instructions?


This is a classic overwatering symptom, though clawing and dark green leaves can also be too much nitrogen.


Watering should be done when the pot feels unusually, and surprisingly light, not on a schedule.


No. Technically, you can't overwater a plant. We call it that but what is really going on is a lack of oxygen to the roots. In veg in a traditional pot, you should thoroughly water the pot to saturation and then let it dry out before watering again.


Your roots are not as thick as one would expect to see on those size plants. I would suggest either learning to water correctly with a wet/dry cycle, or skip that learning curve altogether and join a few of us that have switched over to SIPs (sub irrigated planters). They eliminate the watering issue altogether by providing a reservoir below the plant, but also provide constant air to the roots eliminating what we call overwatering but is really a lack of O2.

Another alternative is to use @Bill284 's method of adding perlite layers to your standard mix to help with drainage.

Thanks for the input, my worst concern was the root rot, now that it seems out of the way I tend to believe that I have a problem with the watering. I currently water 0.4L every other day, they are always light and kind of wilted before I water, however I begin to think that I should water say 0.6-7L and let them have 3 days in between waterings. With 0.4 or less in previous weeks, the pot does not get evenly moist and this might potentially cause all sorts of issues in the media.

So far what I will do for sure is add pot elevators, add some more holes on the side of the pots and with the next batch add 10% additional perlite to improve aeration. Sub irrigated planters seems a tempting option however I grow with organic nutes that will probably get sour at 28 degrees / 84f.

 

[plan500]

Hi - the feeding schedule calculator on Plagron.com says:

Light Mix - Up to 5ml/L Terra Grow in veg, 5ml/L Terra Bloom after flip [plus a few additives]

So I am wondering 1/ whether the Alga is the correct line of nutes to use for that substrate
2/ why you are using less than half strength throughout?
When you water, are you watering the whole pot thoroughly - if not, that can cause spindly roots

Hi there,

I've been assured by Plagron support that Lightmix is compatible with the Alga series. The litemix has some mineral preloaded food that starts the seedlings in the first 10 days or so. After that you can use either Terra (mineral) or Alga (organic). In terms of what the calculators and feedcharts say, those are some max values that will definately cause problems along the way. I have tried feeding both in the lower and higher ends but there are other factors that make this very difficult to pin point. My feeding schedule is based on many opinions online and experience of people I know. Finally, plants don't look underfed, I don't have a single yellow leave and if anything they look overfed.

 

[Roy Growin]

Hi there,

I've been assured by Plagron support that Lightmix is compatible with the Alga series. The litemix has some mineral preloaded food that starts the seedlings in the first 10 days or so. After that you can use either Terra (mineral) or Alga (organic). In terms of what the calculators and feedcharts say, those are some max values that will definately cause problems along the way. I have tried feeding both in the lower and higher ends but there are other factors that make this very difficult to pin point. My feeding schedule is based on many opinions online and experience of people I know. Finally, plants don't look underfed, I don't have a single yellow leave and if anything they look overfed.

By the way - Hello and Welcome to 420 @plan500

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks for the input, my worst concern was the root rot, now that it seems out of the way I tend to believe that I have a problem with the watering. I currently water 0.4L every other day, they are always light and kind of wilted before I water, however I begin to think that I should water say 0.6-7L and let them have 3 days in between waterings. With 0.4 or less in previous weeks, the pot does not get evenly moist and this might potentially cause all sorts of issues in the media.

So far what I will do for sure is add pot elevators, add some more holes on the side of the pots and with the next batch add 10% additional perlite to improve aeration. Sub irrigated planters seems a tempting option however I grow with organic nutes that will probably get sour at 28 degrees / 84f.

Hi @plan500 and welcome to the forum!

I have made watering a study of mine since I got into this growing game, and I have to agree with some of the above statements that you are indeed overwatering, and I will add that you are underwatering too. I know that doesn't make sense, but please hear me out.

You are doing two things wrong; you are watering on a schedule, and you are thinking for the plants and that container of soil by deciding for them how much water to give. Your watering schedule should change throughout the grow, depending on the size of the plants and the size of the container. One of the things we use to gauge when to transplant, is when the plants start using up all the water on a daily basis.

Using up the water is the key. You are coming along at a set interval to water the plants. If the plants have not used up the water from the time before, that water is sitting at the bottom of the container, imagine an underground lake. You water, and gravity eventually will bring that water down to add to that lake, and as a result, the bottom third to half of your container is constantly underwater. You describe a point where your plants take their first turn for the worst, and this would be the point that all of those drowned lower roots begin to rot and die.

The lowest part of your container is where the big feeder roots reside. If they don't see oxygen now and then, they will die. The easiest way to do this is to always between waterings, let the soil dry out all the way to the bottom. The Lift-The-Pot method is the best way to tell if this has happened. Fill a container similar to what you are using for your plants, with dry soil just like you are using. Hold it out at arms length and note how light it is. Now do the same with your plant. The plant is pretty light, that extra weight you feel is water weight. Until your plant is as light as the test pot of soil, it is not yet time to water.

The strength of your roots is increased every time you cycle the plant into the dry zone. The plant will send out new roots in search of the last remaining water. To grow strong roots, make the plant work for its water.

Now the underwatering part. Once you have dried your soil out, all the way to the bottom and the plant is on the verge of wilting at the main stalk, then it is time to water. How much water? Treat that container of soil as if it was a sponge, and your task is to see how much water you can get it to soak up before any extra would just run out of the bottom. This is done by slowly watering and taking little breaks for the soil to absorb the water. I will often water until a little bit of runoff starts, and then walk away for a half hour, before I come back and top it off again, just to the point of runoff.

The amount of water that this takes changes all through veg as the plants are gaining size. A small seedling might take 5 days to drain the water from a solo cup full of soil, but give it a couple of wet/dry cycles, and it will soon be draining that cup in 3 days. Let it build some more roots, and soon you will need to transplant, because the plant can now drain the cup in just 1 day. There is no set interval between watering, and there is no set amount of water to give. Your goal is to get out of the way, and let the plants do their thing.

I wrote a nice series of watering guides some years ago and a lot of people have started using my wet/dry cycle ideas to produce amazing plants. There are many different methods of watering, from pure hydro to SIP to creating a wet/dry cycle, but watering by calendar and measuring cup have never worked very well. Look for my guides and give them a look... the link is down below.

 

[Mountainman80]

Dear fellow growers,

I need your help to figure out a problem with my plants that has been following me for the last 6 grows. I am running a mid-sized operation and It is a repeating problem that I just can’t seem to understand and resolve.

It all goes normal with the seedlings, they are growing well with a light color of the leaves and no visible problems. However, as I approach week 3 of Veg the leaves start to get a darker shade. I have tried to withhold any feeding and wait for them to get lighter but they never do. They never get light but rather darker and when I eventually feed them only the new growth/ top become a bit lighter. I have tried different feeding approaches(more/less) both with the young plants and also later in veg but the result is always the same - dark droopy leaves, clawing and generally a very stunted growth. I have top dressed with worm castings, made teas with just a temporary effect.

Recently I made an observation that the plants don’t develop a very good root system (yes, I could have checked this earlier) . In early veg roots are white, but not that thick or dense. After repot the new roots also appear white. The pictures show the plants in their week 8 of VEG, that is 4 weeks after repotting and the roots don’t seem to be strong or dense. You can also see that the plants are very small for 8 weeks growing.

Later in bloom the roots get brownish and plants start to get yellow with dying leaver starting from week 4 until the end. Plans don’t handle strong light and don’t drink as much. Harvests are poor and generally low quality.

I have posted pictures of a current batch in VEG and in BLOOM. You can see that the roots of both batches are not right. Is this root rot?
I am beginning to think that the problem is not caused by feeding schedule or environment but rather watering and lack of oxygen. I water every other day and generally have a good observation how much they drink every 48h. However, I might have overwatered on repot and didn’t water them for 5-6 days until they got light. Could that single overwatering start a root rot? Also, would you suggest to put pot elevators and additional perlite to the light mix?

Any suggestions and comments with regards to prevention and current actions are welcomed. I really need your help as this has been happening the last one year and I am running out of ideas and resources.


Environment: Sealed room, CO2 enriched (more info in the attached table)
Media: Plagron Lightmix (preloaded with mineral nutrients for 1-2 weeks at most)
Media pH: 5.8-6.4 (measured with a BlueLab multimedia probe.)
Nutes: Plagron Alga Grow/Bloom (100% organic, seaweed based) (find attached a veg feeding schedule)
Pots: ½ gallon (2L) for the first 3-4 weeks then repot into 2.5 gallon (10L)
VEG/BLOOM: 8 weeks veg and 9 weeks bloom
Lights room1: Chinese LED bar lights with Samsung LH281H chips (cold, warm and UV)
Lights room2: Quantum boards (fotops 800) with Samsung LM301B 3500/4000K
Light schedule VEG: 18/6
Water source: ph 7-8, 60 ppm, filtered through a chlorine filter
Seeds: Skunk XL from Royal Queen Seeds.

Hi @plan500 and welcome to the forum!

I have made watering a study of mine since I got into this growing game, and I have to agree with some of the above statements that you are indeed overwatering, and I will add that you are underwatering too. I know that doesn't make sense, but please hear me out.

You are doing two things wrong; you are watering on a schedule, and you are thinking for the plants and that container of soil by deciding for them how much water to give. Your watering schedule should change throughout the grow, depending on the size of the plants and the size of the container. One of the things we use to gauge when to transplant, is when the plants start using up all the water on a daily basis.

Using up the water is the key. You are coming along at a set interval to water the plants. If the plants have not used up the water from the time before, that water is sitting at the bottom of the container, imagine an underground lake. You water, and gravity eventually will bring that water down to add to that lake, and as a result, the bottom third to half of your container is constantly underwater. You describe a point where your plants take their first turn for the worst, and this would be the point that all of those drowned lower roots begin to rot and die.

The lowest part of your container is where the big feeder roots reside. If they don't see oxygen now and then, they will die. The easiest way to do this is to always between waterings, let the soil dry out all the way to the bottom. The Lift-The-Pot method is the best way to tell if this has happened. Fill a container similar to what you are using for your plants, with dry soil just like you are using. Hold it out at arms length and note how light it is. Now do the same with your plant. The plant is pretty light, that extra weight you feel is water weight. Until your plant is as light as the test pot of soil, it is not yet time to water.

The strength of your roots is increased every time you cycle the plant into the dry zone. The plant will send out new roots in search of the last remaining water. To grow strong roots, make the plant work for its water.

Now the underwatering part. Once you have dried your soil out, all the way to the bottom and the plant is on the verge of wilting at the main stalk, then it is time to water. How much water? Treat that container of soil as if it was a sponge, and your task is to see how much water you can get it to soak up before any extra would just run out of the bottom. This is done by slowly watering and taking little breaks for the soil to absorb the water. I will often water until a little bit of runoff starts, and then walk away for a half hour, before I come back and top it off again, just to the point of runoff.

The amount of water that this takes changes all through veg as the plants are gaining size. A small seedling might take 5 days to drain the water from a solo cup full of soil, but give it a couple of wet/dry cycles, and it will soon be draining that cup in 3 days. Let it build some more roots, and soon you will need to transplant, because the plant can now drain the cup in just 1 day. There is no set interval between watering, and there is no set amount of water to give. Your goal is to get out of the way, and let the plants do their thing.

I wrote a nice series of watering guides some years ago and a lot of people have started using my wet/dry cycle ideas to produce amazing plants. There are many different methods of watering, from pure hydro to SIP to creating a wet/dry cycle, but watering by calendar and measuring cup have never worked very well. Look for my guides and give them a look... the link is down below.

U think could be the lights because I got newer one iv had some. Issses out one my plants 4weeks old.everything was fine until she reached 3weeks my Leaves started turning brown in spots I moved my light up some.all I could do

 

[plan500]

Hi @plan500 and welcome to the forum!

I have made watering a study of mine since I got into this growing game, and I have to agree with some of the above statements that you are indeed overwatering, and I will add that you are underwatering too. I know that doesn't make sense, but please hear me out.

You are doing two things wrong; you are watering on a schedule, and you are thinking for the plants and that container of soil by deciding for them how much water to give. Your watering schedule should change throughout the grow, depending on the size of the plants and the size of the container. One of the things we use to gauge when to transplant, is when the plants start using up all the water on a daily basis.

Using up the water is the key. You are coming along at a set interval to water the plants. If the plants have not used up the water from the time before, that water is sitting at the bottom of the container, imagine an underground lake. You water, and gravity eventually will bring that water down to add to that lake, and as a result, the bottom third to half of your container is constantly underwater. You describe a point where your plants take their first turn for the worst, and this would be the point that all of those drowned lower roots begin to rot and die.

The lowest part of your container is where the big feeder roots reside. If they don't see oxygen now and then, they will die. The easiest way to do this is to always between waterings, let the soil dry out all the way to the bottom. The Lift-The-Pot method is the best way to tell if this has happened. Fill a container similar to what you are using for your plants, with dry soil just like you are using. Hold it out at arms length and note how light it is. Now do the same with your plant. The plant is pretty light, that extra weight you feel is water weight. Until your plant is as light as the test pot of soil, it is not yet time to water.

The strength of your roots is increased every time you cycle the plant into the dry zone. The plant will send out new roots in search of the last remaining water. To grow strong roots, make the plant work for its water.

Now the underwatering part. Once you have dried your soil out, all the way to the bottom and the plant is on the verge of wilting at the main stalk, then it is time to water. How much water? Treat that container of soil as if it was a sponge, and your task is to see how much water you can get it to soak up before any extra would just run out of the bottom. This is done by slowly watering and taking little breaks for the soil to absorb the water. I will often water until a little bit of runoff starts, and then walk away for a half hour, before I come back and top it off again, just to the point of runoff.

The amount of water that this takes changes all through veg as the plants are gaining size. A small seedling might take 5 days to drain the water from a solo cup full of soil, but give it a couple of wet/dry cycles, and it will soon be draining that cup in 3 days. Let it build some more roots, and soon you will need to transplant, because the plant can now drain the cup in just 1 day. There is no set interval between watering, and there is no set amount of water to give. Your goal is to get out of the way, and let the plants do their thing.

I wrote a nice series of watering guides some years ago and a lot of people have started using my wet/dry cycle ideas to produce amazing plants. There are many different methods of watering, from pure hydro to SIP to creating a wet/dry cycle, but watering by calendar and measuring cup have never worked very well. Look for my guides and give them a look... the link is down below.

Hi there and thank you for your time,

Everything you have mentioned more or less confirms where the problem is. Throughout the life of the plant I have only overwatered right after the transplant. I did water 0.4L and 48h later the plants looked a bit droopy and wilted and thought they might have absorbed the water in their cube and decided to water again with 0.3L .. then the pot was very heavy and I waited a whole week until they got lite. This was happens almost every time and thing take a turn for the worst from that point on.

I only have two concern with your suggestion to water until run off. My pots are 10L, to water to runoff I would have to water with 1-1.5L, if I do that the plant will be soaked and possibly it will take 7-10 days to dry. Isn't that going to create other problems? And also with the number of plants and physicals access I have, I can't deal with emptying runoff from trays. I understand the whole concept and benefits of runoff however in my setup it will be an overkill and I know other people manage without, considering the organic nutes and a balanced feed. Not that I'm there yet _

 

[plan500]

U think could be the lights because I got newer one iv had some. Issses out one my plants 4weeks old.everything was fine until she reached 3weeks my Leaves started turning brown in spots I moved my light up some.all I could do

Lifting the light or reducing it always have positive effect when other things are wrong. In my case I have underlying issues I need to resolve and reducing light is just a temporary measure in VEG and a compromise with the once in flower.

 

[Azimuth]

I currently water 0.4L every other day, they are always light and kind of wilted before I water, however I begin to think that I should water say 0.6-7L and let them have 3 days in between waterings. With 0.4 or less in previous weeks, the pot does not get evenly moist and this might potentially cause all sorts of issues in the media.

Yeah, that's watering on a schedule and is not the best for these plants. Follow Emilya's thoughts and your plants will improve markedly from that simple change. Some people submerge their plants in a a bucket of water to fully saturate the soil. Em's process is probably better. Slower, but probably better. Either way, you do not want pockets of dry soil sporadically thoughout the pot.

Sub irrigated planters seems a tempting option however I grow with organic nutes that will probably get sour at 28 degrees / 84f.

SIPs work great with organics, either topdressed dry nutes or liquid nutes through the reservoir. Don't let that stop you from trying them if you have an interest. They truly are a game changer for many (me included).

 

[Mountainman80]

Lifting the light or reducing it always have positive effect when other things are wrong. In my case I have underlying issues I need to resolve and reducing light is just a temporary measure in VEG and a compromise with the once in flower.

Are your temps in the good I no some.strains need different temps then others depending were there from.type.of environment like tropical mabey not sure we're u are were I am getting cold.my light doesn't put off any heat hope it doesn't mess them up

 

[SmokingWings]

Recently I made an observation that the plants don’t develop a very good root system (yes, I could have checked this earlier) . In early veg roots are white, but not that thick or dense. After repot the new roots also appear white. The pictures show the plants in their week 8 of VEG, that is 4 weeks after repotting and the roots don’t seem to be strong or dense. You can also see that the plants are very small for 8 weeks growing.

It could be the lighting while taking the photographs but the two photos which show the roots tell me that the watering method is probably off. It looks like the top several inches of the soil/growing medium column is moist. Then the soil starts to look like it is getting drier the further down the soil column until at the bottom when it looks relatively dry.

My feeling is that while the plants were in the early stages of their vegetation cycle the amount of water you were using worked out well which is why there are bands of roots found all the way from top to bottom. As the plants get larger they need more water but the lighter weight of the soil started to feel normal so less water is used. By the time the plants go into flower they are not getting enough water to saturate the soil column top to bottom.

The paragraph quoted below pretty much says that this under-watering of .4 liter (a bit less than a pint) on a fixed schedule (every other day) has been what happened. I get the feeling that you have started to associate the lighter weight of the almost dried out soil as being the goal for what the weight the pot should feel like after a watering.

Been there, done it myself and ended up not putting enough water into the pots of soil.

my worst concern was the root rot, now that it seems out of the way I tend to believe that I have a problem with the watering. I currently water 0.4L every other day, they are always light and kind of wilted before I water, however I begin to think that I should water say 0.6-7L and let them have 3 days in between waterings. With 0.4 or less in previous weeks, the pot does not get evenly moist and this might potentially cause all sorts of issues in the media.

Every now and again I have to do something similar to what I am mentioning below in order to refresh my arms and wrists as to what a well watered pot of soil will feel like.

Take one or two of the pots and fill them with soil. Or use one or two of the pots that already have a plant in them. Put the pots in a sink or someplace they can drain properly. Slowly, over an hour or so, pour about 2 to 3 times the soil volume but using water onto that soil. Let it run out the bottom but be sure to go through the entire amount of water. That will do what I call a supersaturation. Let the pots drain overnight but do not let them sit in a puddle or pool of water. The next morning check how heavy they feel. That new weight is what they should feel like after a watering.

Nice looking garden, by the way.

 

[plan500]

Are your temps in the good I no some.strains need different temps then others depending were there from.type.of environment like tropical mabey not sure we're u are were I am getting cold.my light doesn't put off any heat hope it doesn't mess them up

I haven't considered any strain specific factors yet, but I've tried at least 3 strains with the same result.

 

[plan500]

Yeah, that's watering on a schedule and is not the best for these plants. Follow Emilya's thoughts and your plants will improve markedly from that simple change. Some people submerge their plants in a a bucket of water to fully saturate the soil. Em's process is probably better. Slower, but probably better. Either way, you do not want pockets of dry soil sporadically thoughout the pot.


SIPs work great with organics, either topdressed dry nutes or liquid nutes through the reservoir. Don't let that stop you from trying them if you have an interest. They truly are a game changer for many (me included).

I'm already on that path. The issue with runoff I have is that I cant drain it. I was planning to put pot elevators but now I think I should just change the aluminum saucers with plastic and skip the elevators. If I am to wait for the pot to dry well, next watering will drain though the cracks and if I have elevators, water will sit in the saucer. I prefer to have runoff in the saucer that can be absorbed back into the pot. I cant afford to empty the saucers due to the number of plants and physical access I have. I appreciate that you confirm Emily's point, and yes, I will be watering more and less often from now on.

I'm definitely willing to make an experiment with SIPs, it looks like a smart solution. Would be great if you share more information on how you manage watering with them in the different stages.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Your veg plants look pretty healthy, but your flowering plants look like they have run out of gas. Your roots don't look like they are suffering from root rot although what you describe are classic symptoms of overwatering.

I'm not familiar with your nutes, but I assume you are feeding according to the manufacturer's instructions?


This is a classic overwatering symptom, though clawing and dark green leaves can also be too much nitrogen.


Watering should be done when the pot feels unusually, and surprisingly light, not on a schedule.


No. Technically, you can't overwater a plant. We call it that but what is really going on is a lack of oxygen to the roots. In veg in a traditional pot, you should thoroughly water the pot to saturation and then let it dry out before watering again.


Your roots are not as thick as one would expect to see on those size plants. I would suggest either learning to water correctly with a wet/dry cycle, or skip that learning curve altogether and join a few of us that have switched over to SIPs (sub irrigated planters). They eliminate the watering issue altogether by providing a reservoir below the plant, but also provide constant air to the roots eliminating what we call overwatering but is really a lack of O2.

Another alternative is to use @Bill284 's method of adding perlite layers to your standard mix to help with drainage.

That or @Emiliya’s post about watering auto’s. CL

 

[plan500]

It could be the lighting while taking the photographs but the two photos which show the roots tell me that the watering method is probably off. It looks like the top several inches of the soil/growing medium column is moist. Then the soil starts to look like it is getting drier the further down the soil column until at the bottom when it looks relatively dry.

My feeling is that while the plants were in the early stages of their vegetation cycle the amount of water you were using worked out well which is why there are bands of roots found all the way from top to bottom. As the plants get larger they need more water but the lighter weight of the soil started to feel normal so less water is used. By the time the plants go into flower they are not getting enough water to saturate the soil column top to bottom.

The paragraph quoted below pretty much says that this under-watering of .4 liter (a bit less than a pint) on a fixed schedule (every other day) has been what happened. I get the feeling that you have started to associate the lighter weight of the almost dried out soil as being the goal for what the weight the pot should feel like after a watering.

Been there, done it myself and ended up not putting enough water into the pots of soil.


Every now and again I have to do something similar to what I am mentioning below in order to refresh my arms and wrists as to what a well watered pot of soil will feel like.

Take one or two of the pots and fill them with soil. Or use one or two of the pots that already have a plant in them. Put the pots in a sink or someplace they can drain properly. Slowly, over an hour or so, pour about 2 to 3 times the soil volume but using water onto that soil. Let it run out the bottom but be sure to go through the entire amount of water. That will do what I call a supersaturation. Let the pots drain overnight but do not let them sit in a puddle or pool of water. The next morning check how heavy they feel. That new weight is what they should feel like after a watering.

Nice looking garden, by the way.

You have made a very good observation. Indeed the pot in the pictures has been just watered with 0.5L prior to taking the picture and it appears that only the top 1/3 is actually moist. I've been too scared to overwater and try and water every 48h precisely and eventually have underwatered.

I do remind myself of the weight feel of dry and soaked pot. But now that I am about to change my watering method completely, it would be much easier to tell them apart. Thank you for your input, I never though that I would actually have people get into my specific situation and be so relevant.

Thanks!

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi there and thank you for your time,

Everything you have mentioned more or less confirms where the problem is. Throughout the life of the plant I have only overwatered right after the transplant. I did water 0.4L and 48h later the plants looked a bit droopy and wilted and thought they might have absorbed the water in their cube and decided to water again with 0.3L .. then the pot was very heavy and I waited a whole week until they got lite. This was happens almost every time and thing take a turn for the worst from that point on.

I only have two concern with your suggestion to water until run off. My pots are 10L, to water to runoff I would have to water with 1-1.5L, if I do that the plant will be soaked and possibly it will take 7-10 days to dry. Isn't that going to create other problems? And also with the number of plants and physicals access I have, I can't deal with emptying runoff from trays. I understand the whole concept and benefits of runoff however in my setup it will be an overkill and I know other people manage without, considering the organic nutes and a balanced feed. Not that I'm there yet _

You have not completely grasped what I was trying to tell you. When I mention watering to runoff, I mean that the very first drip that you see come out of the bottom, you STOP. There is absolutely no need to produce a large amount of runoff, and what you do produce should be able to evaporate before the next day.

I don't care how much you water with to get to that point, it should all be able to stay in the medium... so runoff should not be an issue for you. And yes, a 5 gallon container should be able to take about a gallon of water before that happens, and this amount will change as the roots get stronger.

And yes, the first time you do this, it might very well take a week or longer for the plant to use all that water, especially with the condition your roots appear to be in. Why would this cause other problems? Please don't think that the plants can't go a week or 10 days without your intervention... they certainly can. You say this has been going on for a while now, and you can see that it happens to every plant in your garden. That points to something basic that you are doing wrong, and I am 99% sure that your over and under watering is the entire problem.