Why are F2 seeds less expensive?

I'm surprised hybrid vigor hasn't been mentioned. I have read that F 1's have more vigorous growth than the original parents, or F 2's 3's and so on. Someone please set me strait on this!.
 
NeedMyWeed said:
I'm surprised hybrid vigor hasn't been mentioned. I have read that F 1's have more vigorous growth than the original parents, or F 2's 3's and so on. Someone please set me strait on this!.
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I'm pretty sure the f1 generation of your breeding project is the heterozygous generation due to the parents variation and what they create I find it weird the f2 gen isn't more expensive because generally f2 would be the more isolated generation when it comes to desired traits so maybe the seller is a bit confused.


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wheat berry said:
F2's are less expensive because anyone who buys a pack of F1's can make them by just letting the males pollenate the females. a person can make thousands of F2's, will very little effort.

in my experience expensive genetics are not always better.
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Well wouldn't the f 1 generation be less expensive than the f2 or f3 and so on because the first gen of plants is heterozygous due to the parents first cross creating lots of variation then you back cross a plant with the desired traits back to the mother or father until you get to the f what ever generation that has all the locked down desired traits making it much more stable than the f 1 also there fore making it more expensive


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PeytonManning said:
I've seen it a couple of times where they state f1 or IBL, and I think it's mostly bragging rights but it also means the genetics are very stable, so it's easy to predict the pheno that will be expressed. I believe you have to backcross to get it f1
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I think you are confused you do not back cross to get an f1 the f1 is the first generation of plant cross the f2 is the cross back to the mother with and f 1 plant to then create the f 2 generation


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To clarify:
An F1 hybrid is a cross of two wholly unlike cultivars, i.e., Mexican sativa x Paki Indica. The resulting cross will be homogeneous, showing the traits of both parents spilt equally among progeny. An f2 (second gen) cross of a true F1 hybrid will unequally show traits of the original parents progeny, producing wildly variable plants.
Most seeds sold today are not F1 hybrids, they are polyhybrids, having multiple parents on each side of the cross with extremely varied phenotypic expressions.
Example: White Widow is landrace indica x landrace sativa. Specific parents. Only Mr. Nice Seeds has those parents. Crop King buys WW seeds from MNS, fucks them together, and sells the progeny as "Original White Widow." It's not, but CK doesn't bother labeling their WW as "f2" because either they don't know any better, or they don't care, or they're crooks. Maybe all three. But that's how the seed business rolls for the most part. Most seed sellers don't even know wtf "F1 hybrid" even means. Doing copious research is your best friend.
As to "IBL" or inbred lines, there's very few to no people currently making seeds that will invest the years of focused line breeding and selecting that it takes to create an IBL so when you see that claimed make damn sure that you trust the person claiming it or dismiss it as bullshit. If the breeder or seller can't explain the process, then it's fraud.
 
growguro420 said:
I think you are confused you do not back cross to get an f1 the f1 is the first generation of plant cross the f2 is the cross back to the mother with and f 1 plant to then create the f 2 generation
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An F1 is first cross of two wholly unlike cultivars. An f2 generation is a cross of the seeds generated by the initial, F1 cross. A backcross is generally males from the F1 generation bred backwards to the mother of the F1 cross, selected for favorable target traits used to narrow expression in the BX#1 progeny.
 
I think (personally) that a lot of this shit is HYPED UP. Cannabis is cannabis. Sativa vs. Indica. Basic stuff. I have gotten GREEN seeds from trusted seedbanks. Do it like I do: buy some seeds, breed and cross-breed and get your own strain you're happy with. I'm currently working on introducing my personal fave: "Ms. Madragana AB". She's a hybrid with some awesome genetics and is Sativa dominant. I've done Indica and I've done Sativa and I find (for myself) that Sativa is it for me! When I finish up with the cross-breeding and stabilizing, I will announce in another post that Ms. Madragana AB is ready. And I will NOT sell any seeds. Nope. I give back to the world this strain because I am NOT in any of this for profit. Fuck that! As you have received freely, then freely give back! That is how I roll.. ..and yeah, I got some "Ms. Universe F2" seeds.... planted them... NOT impressed. So. I will do some cross-breeding and add some good other strong plants to this and then I will have MY strain.
 
Don't know the answer so I'm asking.

I got some killer purple buds here in Texas and was told that the strain was "Texas Kind Buds", but who knows. I grew several plants but accidentally missed a male until it was too late and seeded the crop, just a wee bit. So the seeds from that initial flower, was it F2 since, I presume, it was the same issue then, that a male was missed? And now the seeds I have from my crop are F3? I had labeled MY seeds as F2 but from this thread I'm starting to think that they actually F3?
 
So you are saying that you planted seeds that were genetically the same, and a male pollinated the females? Those resulting seeds would be a single cross of the same generation as the two parents, AKA inbred, because they would have the same allele arrays. If you then took those seeds and crossed them, you'd wind up with a single-cross hybrid, AKA an F1 Hybrid. Those F1 hybrid seeds would have more vigor than the inbred parents.
 
zeroday said:
So you are saying that you planted seeds that were genetically the same, and a male pollinated the females? Those resulting seeds would be a single cross of the same generation as the two parents, AKA inbred, because they would have the same allele arrays. If you then took those seeds and crossed them, you'd wind up with a single-cross hybrid, AKA an F1 Hybrid. Those F1 hybrid seeds would have more vigor than the inbred parents.
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I understand now, thanks zeroday, finally makes sense to me!
 
Interesting read & perfect timing for me. I'm looking to order new seeds this week. Looking for 3 strains in particular that I love ... Fire OG, Incredible Bulk & Do Si Do's. I'm looking to get the best pheno's possible as I want to get a mother from each plant. So where can I buy F1 seeds of these strains ? Do I have to ask the seed bank if they have F1 seeds or what as I don't usually see that info listed?
 
In my opinion there less expensive cause you get half automatic plant and half photo-periodic so its like 50/50 combined to 1 seed
 
Is it harder to find a stable feminized plant or the regular seeds. I see a lot of feminized seeds and little selection of reg F1 seeds where I can get a male. Am I just out in space on this one, or is it by design, or am I not on the right SeedBank?
 
OP you say true breeding strains vary little, what is considered an industry standard acceptable deviation from the mean? and also is it even possible to know how homogenous your seeds are without planting them and comparing their dna? or by selfing where you know what chromosomes you already have?

growerX
well, what do you mean by stable? non inter-sex trait phenos? then def regular. stable as in homogeneous then probably feminized as their mostly closer to IBL strains but also you need to understand they arent checking the dna of seeds to ensure they fit within acceptable predetermined values of the said strain, mostly because we cant & keep in mind the genetics a seed bank offers arent the same every batch. so bsically, pot luck?>
and everytime you cross you parents the offspring cant be predicted to 100%, look at siblings, sometimes theyre very similliar, sometimes youd never know theyre related by looking at them.
basically, homogeneousity and sex stable are like, countering factors, selfing a plant basically gives you a clone as a seed thats 90% more likely to be intersex. keep in mind, we understand enough about genetics to know that genes are not carried over with much degree of predictability. the more complex the lifeform the less chance you can predict it.
 
wheat berry said:
F2's are less expensive because anyone who buys a pack of F1's can make them by just letting the males pollenate the females. a person can make thousands of F2's, will very little effort.

in my experience expensive genetics are not always better.
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technically true but vigerous testing goes into the selection of the mother and father pheno. but after getting in touch with a few breeders they all seem to say the same thing, how the genetics turn out, you wont truly know till you plant the seed.
the other thing to consider is that the offspring will be as simillar as human siblings roughly - could go either way. most of the seed banks ive asked (dinafem, dutch passion barneys farm) wont sell you certain strains as unfeminized seeds. for that reason or else they cost a god damn fortune compared to the feminized versions. sometimes they simply dont have a breeding male anymore. but FYI dinafem seeds are all F1 seeds. personally I'd prefer a shit tonne of regular F2 seeds to find the mum I want, or more correctly put, the expression of the genetics I want, but non of the strains I want I can get unfeminized. :(

also has anyone ever experimented with pollinating buds with a different type of plants pollen. a biologist friend of mine has the theory that strawberry fields occured due to horizontal gene transfer either through the roots or by pollen.
 
uptheholler said:
This is a great thread but I thought that i would chime in here. Some of the differences that folks have been describing are because of a problem with our first supposition. That problem is that alot of companies don't truly have consistantly true breeding lines to start with.
I have been fairly vocal on my issues with some breeders. We need breeders to be honest and totally scrupulous when describing what a person can expect to see from any seed offering. Most breeders are working with fairly limited populations of plants when compared to a corn or soybean breeder. The gold mine times are now in this industry and don't think that they don't know it. They race new crosses to the market as soon as they can come up with the next cool name. The different phenotypes that we all have experienced from the same seeds is evidence of this challenge. Let's face it in alot of cases you can start with land race varieties and make your own crosses. You have just as much chance of "hitting the pot jackpot" with a super good cross that has the perfect combination of traits that you are looking for as the next guy.
Remember as a breeder you need to have a solid end goal in mind when you approach a prospective cross. Then you have to keep these goals in mind constantly as you go through the laborious selection process as you judge and evaluate plants based upon how closely they achieve your goals in the program. It's easy to get side tracked...all of a sudden you have a plant with a strong smell.. or color.. or whatever... but it doesn't achieve your current breeding goals. It's pretty easy to start chasing alot of phenotypes and in the end gain nothing.
As far as pricing differences are concerned, it's really what the market will bear and what they can ask and keep a straight face.
It's fun to jump into the seed company worlds. They provide a great service and offer opportunities to expand your collections genetic base which simply didn't exist back in the old days when I started. Again a very enjoyable discussion. Best of luck!
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OMG im not the only one who has this issue. like, has anyone ever had a plant actually finish in as many days as the seed bank says? and like, i always keep a cut of ever seed i plant incase i hit that perfect pheno but these days ive been getting slack as ive more or less given up. I reached out to alot of seed banks, some are just dicks and others are great to talk to but still, they all clam up when it gets down to any info theyd rather not share. I wish I lived somewhere it was possible to be a breeder but alas not allowed where i am. but yeah the over valuation of marketing departments is insane. especially with autoflowers.
 
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