Weasel Forges Ahead
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Ok so I found the answer to my question tonight in a video put out by Promix. It’s quite simple.
Pretty well all micro nutrients get taken up at a lower pH level. True soil has a lot of minerals, it’s chock full of micro nutrients. Actually to a potential excess, and a higher ph for soil helps reduce the uptake of micros, and avoid an excess. According to ‘the guy’.
The soilless mixes do not naturally have any micros at all. Only what we add, and the buffering to a lower ph range helps to maximize their uptake.
I could ask a hundred questions about that, but the guy did sound very confident - so maybe best to take his word for it and not confuse the issue. Micros. I wonder if the lack of some of them in the past has caused me issues.
I recently got a nice micro mix. Which I forgot to add to my feeding last night. Going to go give some to the plants now
Skybound
Well-Known Member
I am reading the book again and this excerpt sounds interesting and correlates with the info you just shared.
Can you link the video please?Ok so I found the answer to my question tonight in a video put out by Promix. It’s quite simple.
Pretty well all micro nutrients get taken up at a lower pH level. True soil has a lot of minerals, it’s chock full of micro nutrients. Actually to a potential excess, and a higher ph for soil helps reduce the uptake of micros, and avoid an excess. According to ‘the guy’.
The soilless mixes do not naturally have any micros at all. Only what we add, and the buffering to a lower ph range helps to maximize their uptake.
I could ask a hundred questions about that, but the guy did sound very confident - so maybe best to take his word for it and not confuse the issue. Micros. I wonder if the lack of some of them in the past has caused me issues.
I recently got a nice micro mix. Which I forgot to add to my feeding last night. Going to go give some to the plants now
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Just to add to your post and maybe answer some of your “unasked” questions.
If you are running organics and relying on microbes to feed your plants, then if you start out with a base that is neutral or just slightly acidic, the plants will be fine. The plant has the ability to fine tune the pH local to the root allowing it to selectively uptake nutrients at that root. It does this by releasing exudes that regulate the pH immediately around the root.
ProMix, and others like it, use peat as a base medium which has a natural pH in the 4 range. Since the majority of plants people cultivate require a median pH of ~6, this is where they aim for with buffering. Adding fertilizers, that are not pH adjusted, add more acid, or base, to the soil solution than the plant can compensate for.
In organics, microbes feed the plants by breaking down nutrient matter but do little in the way of changing pH, so as long as the water you use is relatively neutral, the plant takes care of pH.
If you are running organics and relying on microbes to feed your plants, then if you start out with a base that is neutral or just slightly acidic, the plants will be fine. The plant has the ability to fine tune the pH local to the root allowing it to selectively uptake nutrients at that root. It does this by releasing exudes that regulate the pH immediately around the root.
ProMix, and others like it, use peat as a base medium which has a natural pH in the 4 range. Since the majority of plants people cultivate require a median pH of ~6, this is where they aim for with buffering. Adding fertilizers, that are not pH adjusted, add more acid, or base, to the soil solution than the plant can compensate for.
In organics, microbes feed the plants by breaking down nutrient matter but do little in the way of changing pH, so as long as the water you use is relatively neutral, the plant takes care of pH.
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Thanks yes I hadn’t been considering the whole picture- the fact that complete soils generally function with the help of a high population of microbes.
Hi @copperrein Here is a link. Hopefully it doesn’t get chopped by the forum surgeons. It’s just a quick one minute blurb from Promix.
Hi @copperrein Here is a link. Hopefully it doesn’t get chopped by the forum surgeons. It’s just a quick one minute blurb from Promix.
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- #3,907
Put a couple Ace seeds in the sprouter today. Zamaldelica and Kali China. These are old freebies that I had laying around forever. Apparently I didn’t give a crap about them until today, till I came across some extra enthusiastic endorsements of both recently, and now I’m on the edge of my seat worrying that they might not sprout.
The slightly ravaged planties seem like they’re holding pretty steady. To me that says the latest damage control mission is doing OK. When I stand in the flowering room I feel, overall, more happy than stressed out by my crappy plants, so that’s kind of -the other main thing right?
Got the veg room chopped down to about 25 plants now.
Not much else to report going on. Picked a few crickets out of my veg room. Damn their endless chirping! And a tumbleweed blew in and got stuck in my intake fan but I got it out. So that’s good....
The slightly ravaged planties seem like they’re holding pretty steady. To me that says the latest damage control mission is doing OK. When I stand in the flowering room I feel, overall, more happy than stressed out by my crappy plants, so that’s kind of -the other main thing right?
Got the veg room chopped down to about 25 plants now.
Not much else to report going on. Picked a few crickets out of my veg room. Damn their endless chirping! And a tumbleweed blew in and got stuck in my intake fan but I got it out. So that’s good....
Skybound
Well-Known Member
Your garden more or less mirrors mine with young ones in veg looking stellar and the older they get they seem to deviate from that description. I think your theory of high N is correct. Reading in the N section of chapter 5 leads me to believe N tox is much worse than N def, and it's my guess the young ones only look so good because the root damage hasn't yet caught up to them. I'll be starting the lower NPK regimen today when I pot up my veg room and water them in, hopefully that smoothes things out some. I also have to contend with the fact that I'm in 2nd run Faux Mix, so there's likely a buildup of macros from last run in my formulation. Wish me luck!
Shaggn
Well-Known Member
So the soil pH doesn't change as the nutrient content diminishes. I always thought it would rise. Clarify for me please, Thx
Skybound
Well-Known Member
my guess would be that whatever buffers the soil will determine what the soil PH is.
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Morning @Shaggn ,
Living organic soils feed your plants by a different means than salt based fertilizers.
Forgive me if I start covering stuff you already know but I don’t know your background in chemistry and others that read this may have no background in chemistry.
With fertilizers, the nutrients are in a salt form and I will use potassium nitrate as an example. Even in soil(soilless), we only consider what takes place in the water it contains, the medium itself is just a holder, much like a sponge, it holds the water that contains the nutrients. Some of these salts will raise pH, some will lower pH and pH will drift as they get used up.
when Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is put into solution, the K separates from NO3 giving us ions that are floating around in the solution, these are now available for root uptake. Although there is more to it, the simplest way to view uptake of salts is through osmosis. If the concentrations of a specific ion is higher in solution than the root, the ion moves into the root. The root will continue to uptake that ion until concentrations equalize. This is essentially how nute burn occurs.
In living organic soils, we are relying on microbes (bacteria,fungi, etc) to break down organic matter to feed our plants, but they don’t produce salts. The plants use another means entirely to uptake nutrients in this system, and has only been recently (past few years) that research has found and understood how it works.
I will go over the mechanism for N uptake in an LOS, mainly because I read a paper recently on this and it included a cool video of the process (microscopic video)
The simplest LOS you can make, that will grow cannabis, only contains 3 ingredients aside from water. Peat, alfalfa and lime. Mix a bale of peat with 20lbs (half feed bag) alfalfa and 1c of lime. Let this “cook” for a couple months and then use it.
Here is what happens, during the “cooking” the microbes are feeding, breeding, crapping and dying. Depending on where in the food chain a microbes is, it can also be food for (or feed on) other microbes as well. During all of this, pH doesn’t drift because the microbes are taking nothing from, or adding too, the soil anything that changes pH. The overall pH May fluctuate slightly, but not enough to affect anything.
Now back to N uptake in LOS. Bacteria are the primary source of N for plants in LOS. The plants “farm” bacteria to obtain N in an interesting process as follows.
First, for those that do not know the physical nature of bacteria, they are basically a bit of genetic material surrounded by a hard shell, and guess what that shell contains - N. As the bacteria feed and multiply, they use the N from the alfalfa to build their shells.
The plant exudes a substance that attracts these bacteria which it then absorbs into the root and this is where the interesting stuff happens. Plant root cells have 3 primary parts: Cell Wall, the Cytoplasm(all the living parts of the cell) and a space between the 2.
Its the space that interests us. Once bacteria are absorbed into this space, they get swirled around in a basic (might be acidic) solution that dissolves the bacteria’s shell providing N to the plant. The bacterias genetic material is fractured and broken up before being expelled back into the soil. Each piece of genetic material becomes a new bacteria thereby increasing the population. These new bacteria then feed on more organic material, building new shells and the process repeats.
Because the N is locked in the shell of the bacteria, it has no affect on the soil pH, even as nutrient levels drop.
Hope this helps your understanding mate, if you have more, give a shout
Living organic soils feed your plants by a different means than salt based fertilizers.
Forgive me if I start covering stuff you already know but I don’t know your background in chemistry and others that read this may have no background in chemistry.
With fertilizers, the nutrients are in a salt form and I will use potassium nitrate as an example. Even in soil(soilless), we only consider what takes place in the water it contains, the medium itself is just a holder, much like a sponge, it holds the water that contains the nutrients. Some of these salts will raise pH, some will lower pH and pH will drift as they get used up.
when Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) is put into solution, the K separates from NO3 giving us ions that are floating around in the solution, these are now available for root uptake. Although there is more to it, the simplest way to view uptake of salts is through osmosis. If the concentrations of a specific ion is higher in solution than the root, the ion moves into the root. The root will continue to uptake that ion until concentrations equalize. This is essentially how nute burn occurs.
In living organic soils, we are relying on microbes (bacteria,fungi, etc) to break down organic matter to feed our plants, but they don’t produce salts. The plants use another means entirely to uptake nutrients in this system, and has only been recently (past few years) that research has found and understood how it works.
I will go over the mechanism for N uptake in an LOS, mainly because I read a paper recently on this and it included a cool video of the process (microscopic video)
The simplest LOS you can make, that will grow cannabis, only contains 3 ingredients aside from water. Peat, alfalfa and lime. Mix a bale of peat with 20lbs (half feed bag) alfalfa and 1c of lime. Let this “cook” for a couple months and then use it.
Here is what happens, during the “cooking” the microbes are feeding, breeding, crapping and dying. Depending on where in the food chain a microbes is, it can also be food for (or feed on) other microbes as well. During all of this, pH doesn’t drift because the microbes are taking nothing from, or adding too, the soil anything that changes pH. The overall pH May fluctuate slightly, but not enough to affect anything.
Now back to N uptake in LOS. Bacteria are the primary source of N for plants in LOS. The plants “farm” bacteria to obtain N in an interesting process as follows.
First, for those that do not know the physical nature of bacteria, they are basically a bit of genetic material surrounded by a hard shell, and guess what that shell contains - N. As the bacteria feed and multiply, they use the N from the alfalfa to build their shells.
The plant exudes a substance that attracts these bacteria which it then absorbs into the root and this is where the interesting stuff happens. Plant root cells have 3 primary parts: Cell Wall, the Cytoplasm(all the living parts of the cell) and a space between the 2.
Its the space that interests us. Once bacteria are absorbed into this space, they get swirled around in a basic (might be acidic) solution that dissolves the bacteria’s shell providing N to the plant. The bacterias genetic material is fractured and broken up before being expelled back into the soil. Each piece of genetic material becomes a new bacteria thereby increasing the population. These new bacteria then feed on more organic material, building new shells and the process repeats.
Because the N is locked in the shell of the bacteria, it has no affect on the soil pH, even as nutrient levels drop.
Hope this helps your understanding mate, if you have more, give a shout
Shaggn
Well-Known Member
That was explained perfectly!! Are you a teacher by chance lol. I thank you for your exquisite lesson. I know pretty much nothing about organics. 
Sorry was reading and thought I'd share ths first part. Anyone interested I can share the rest, although some/most of you may have read this paper/report already.
In the natural environment, soil pH has an enormous influence on soil biogeochemical processes. Soil pH is, therefore, described as the “master soil variable” that influences myriads of soil biological, chemical, and physical properties and processes that affect plant growth and biomass yield. This paper discusses how soil pH affects processes that are interlinked with the biological, geological, and chemical aspects of the soil environment as well as how these processes, through anthropogenic interventions, induce changes in soil pH. Unlike traditional discussions on the various causes of soil pH, particularly soil acidification, this paper focuses on relationships and effects as far as soil biogeochemistry is concerned. Firstly, the effects of soil pH on substance availability, mobility, and soil biological processes are discussed followed by the biogenic regulation of soil pH. It is concluded that soil pH can broadly be applied in two broad areas, i.e., nutrient cycling and plant nutrition and soil remediation (bioremediation and physicochemical remediation).
Sorry was reading and thought I'd share ths first part. Anyone interested I can share the rest, although some/most of you may have read this paper/report already.
In the natural environment, soil pH has an enormous influence on soil biogeochemical processes. Soil pH is, therefore, described as the “master soil variable” that influences myriads of soil biological, chemical, and physical properties and processes that affect plant growth and biomass yield. This paper discusses how soil pH affects processes that are interlinked with the biological, geological, and chemical aspects of the soil environment as well as how these processes, through anthropogenic interventions, induce changes in soil pH. Unlike traditional discussions on the various causes of soil pH, particularly soil acidification, this paper focuses on relationships and effects as far as soil biogeochemistry is concerned. Firstly, the effects of soil pH on substance availability, mobility, and soil biological processes are discussed followed by the biogenic regulation of soil pH. It is concluded that soil pH can broadly be applied in two broad areas, i.e., nutrient cycling and plant nutrition and soil remediation (bioremediation and physicochemical remediation).
The Celt
Well-Known Member
No, not a teacher mate 
carpenter by trade (grew up learning it) and studied engineering in my late 20s. Most of my working career though, I mentored workers new to the field of construction.
Some might, some have, called me a nerd once they get to know me, mainly because I am a life long student of whatever interests me and I retain the majority of what I learn being 50yrs old, I have learned a LOT
As for that paper, can you send me a link? I would like to read it BEFORE I comment on its relationship to what I posted I think I know, but thinking is not knowing
carpenter by trade (grew up learning it) and studied engineering in my late 20s. Most of my working career though, I mentored workers new to the field of construction.Some might, some have, called me a nerd once they get to know me, mainly because I am a life long student of whatever interests me and I retain the majority of what I learn
being 50yrs old, I have learned a LOT As for that paper, can you send me a link? I would like to read it BEFORE I comment on its relationship to what I posted
I think I know, but thinking is not knowing
The Celt
Well-Known Member
I didn’t need to read a lot more to confirm my thoughts, but more than the paragraph you shared
OK so as they say pH does definitely affect the ecosystem in the soil. Also, and not sure how in-depth they went, or even if they mentioned it, but soil pH (in nature) will be vastly different depending on the landscape the sample is taken from. Grasslands will tend too have a pH near neutral whereas soil under a forest floor will tend to be highly acidic, especially if it is an Evergreen stand. Different plant species require different soil pH. Cut down a stand of spruce and Blueberries will grow great, they grow best in a soil pH of ~4. Decide you don’t want blueberries but would rather grow a field of grain, lime the field. This will bring the pH up closer to neutral allowing grain to grow but will kill off the blueberry vines.
The biggest reason changes in pH occur in soils around the world is due to human activity. We introduce and take away things that upset the natural balance. Acid rain, or crop fertilization, for example.
In Living Organic Soils we make ourselves, we are able to maintain a closed system, the only inputs being what we add, and by ensuring what we add is relatively neutral in pH, we can maintain the natural balance and not worry about pH.
OK so as they say pH does definitely affect the ecosystem in the soil. Also, and not sure how in-depth they went, or even if they mentioned it, but soil pH (in nature) will be vastly different depending on the landscape the sample is taken from. Grasslands will tend too have a pH near neutral whereas soil under a forest floor will tend to be highly acidic, especially if it is an Evergreen stand. Different plant species require different soil pH. Cut down a stand of spruce and Blueberries will grow great, they grow best in a soil pH of ~4. Decide you don’t want blueberries but would rather grow a field of grain, lime the field. This will bring the pH up closer to neutral allowing grain to grow but will kill off the blueberry vines.
The biggest reason changes in pH occur in soils around the world is due to human activity. We introduce and take away things that upset the natural balance. Acid rain, or crop fertilization, for example.
In Living Organic Soils we make ourselves, we are able to maintain a closed system, the only inputs being what we add, and by ensuring what we add is relatively neutral in pH, we can maintain the natural balance and not worry about pH.
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- #3,915
Celt what do you make that video I posted from the Promix guy? He was saying that the higher pH range of soil actually reduces the intake of micronutrients, and he implies that otherwise the soil plants might OD on micros.
This is a question I could easily answer by google I suppose. But on the other hand I’ve been growing quite a long time and never figured it out before so maybe you can.
Basically I don’t understand why the pH of Promix is buffered to 5.5. It looks like it’s limiting the availability of a lot of nutrients.
I used to assume that there was a pH swing that happened in the pot, and that over time and as the pot dried the pH would rise- making some nutrients more available. Now I’m not so sure I believe that anymore after seeing how quickly the lime buffers anything I throw at it.
This is a question I could easily answer by google I suppose. But on the other hand I’ve been growing quite a long time and never figured it out before so maybe you can.
Basically I don’t understand why the pH of Promix is buffered to 5.5. It looks like it’s limiting the availability of a lot of nutrients.
I used to assume that there was a pH swing that happened in the pot, and that over time and as the pot dried the pH would rise- making some nutrients more available. Now I’m not so sure I believe that anymore after seeing how quickly the lime buffers anything I throw at it.
25 is a job lol.
crickets are good. they are killers of things you wouldn't like. they are chirpin for the sexy !
screw my response. celt has explained it more fully.
a lot of the bottle nutrients (hydro rules type) are available at that ph point, and ph will swing with uptake, pulling the rest through. just not as dramtic as dwc or hempy / coco.
i don't think the lime "locks" the ph while the media is wet, and it probably moves while drying. i'd be curious to know if is swinging, and by how much for sure. grew big promix for yrs and never really thought of this.
What a difference a day makes! I’m on the edge of my seat as well now...Apparently I didn’t give a crap about them until today, till I came across some extra enthusiastic endorsements of both recently, and now I’m on the edge of my seat worrying that they might not sprout.
Winning!
Wow - gardening goals. Be wild to have that many
... a bit overwhelming maybe Always, the spaces between
From out here the garden is definitely looking perkier Weasel and a variety of colour tones, which is always comforting to me - shows that plants are just getting what they need to express themselves. That how it seems to me anyway.
Great day to you WC and crew
The Celt
Well-Known Member
OK so I actually went and watched the video (2X) to ensure I was following what he was saying. Don’t take what I am about to say as gospel, this is based on my understanding of chemistry and deductive reasoning, not actual research
If we go back and look at the availability chart, we can see that the greatest availability of all listed nutrients, both macro and micro, occurs somewhere between 6.5 and 7.0. From the video, buddy is saying that this allows too much uptake of the micros. Given he works for one of the worlds largest horticultural supply companies, I will take his word for it, he should know what he’s talking about
Now if we look at Mulders Chart to see what affects what
Excess of Ca, Zn, Cu, Mg and P can all cause issues with Fe uptake. I choose Fe because it is the most affected element.
Looking again back at the Availability Chart, at 5.5pH, Iron uptake is maximized along with the 3 micro nutrients below it (on the chart) and uptake of 3 macros that can lockout Fe (Ca, Mg, P) are the reduced.
As the man mentioned in the video, soilless mixes (ProMix, Sunshine, etc) have very little if any of the micros, we add them with feeds and are still in very low concentrations.
This leads me to conclude that 5.5 pH is the best point to satisfy the majority of their customers and also gives the best uptake of micros without causing lockout by the macros. Add to that, this is based on the medium being used with salt based fertilizers, we know that 5.5 is too acidic for organic mixes relying on microbe activity which operates under very different rules
i've always shot a bit higher. 5.6 - 5.8, with 5.8 being the target.
i've never stressed if was a bit lower, but always saw issues over.
this may change things a bit for target if i roll promix this year.
i've never stressed if was a bit lower, but always saw issues over.
this may change things a bit for target if i roll promix this year.
The Celt
Well-Known Member
Almost missed this bit
Lime is extremely good at buffering solutions, whether it be for plants or in the lab. Likely due to Calcium being a highly reactive alkaline earth metal , much like chlorine (occupying a similar position at the other end of the table) is a highly reactive gas.