VI's - Subcool Based - 2 Worm - Multi-Strain - Mother Hunt - 2016

[Papageno]

@Shig,

So I have an excel file with a calendar I am filling out with greater detail and that is my log. What makes it in here is what matters. But that relisting is something I picked up I think from Navigator. I just go back and copy and paste from the last one and add the few things that have come up since and you can point people to some place in the middle of your journal and they can catch up.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Super great idea VI

 

[Papageno]

I can not tell a lie. I have been partaking in some of that RC mother that was harvested at the begining of this journal. It is realy potent and top notch.

And getting progressively closer.

And yes I will go smoke that right now so by the time you read this It will be gone.

 

[Hozona]

 

[Papageno]

I did lie about killing all my clones and moved 2 baby NYPD's into the tent today. 2 weeks veg and we shall see what they do.

I have tea brewing as of now a bit over 24 hours. Probably around 45ish I will feed the plants this tea with some water. After lights come on tomorrow I will tea em up.

After a bit of water the WW is looking a bit better.

 

[Papageno]

Also for those who joined late those were washed buds according to the Docs instructions.

 

[salchipapa27]

Looks good as always VI! Im going to try your method with the blueberry males. Nervous about that but i think i got it

Sent from my SM-G935T using 420

 

[Papageno]

Do or do not...there is no try.

Just make sure when breeding you are breeding strains that are okay to cross or inbreed.

 

[Papageno]

Ah now you made me feel self conscious about opening Pandora's box.

So truly there are things you don't want to breed unless you have excess space and don't care need or want to use the plant. Just slapping two plants together could be real bad or real great.

I learned about plant genetics a long time ago from this horticulturalist but I just googled the history of this and found this Monk who discovered how genetics works but died long before his papers were read and ever appreciated and he did breeding experiments that clearly showed why you must be careful what you breed.

Many people including Darwin were wrong about genetic traits and how they were passed down but this guy figured it out. So I will explain how I think about it and leave you with a link I found that explains the very most basic aspects. There are long thick college course books on this that are very expensive. The knowledge is on the internet but it would take me days to splain it all.

So here goes the short version.

Lets start with a chart I stole from the link below.

So what we see here lets say is a mapping of how genes work in breeding both animals and plants. Lets say this gene controls the color of the seed. Seed could be Striped which will be GG or just a tanish brown which is YY.

Now if you breed them together he found that you get as a result for the First Generation that a true cross between them is formed.

But subsequently. If you breed the F1's together you can get anything from very striped to very yellow. And it only gets worse because the gene will pass on the ability to pass on traits but not show them.


So the point is.

To breed for traits you cross two likely candidates that have strong genetic backgrounds that are not variable that if you picked up any two seeds from the bag and breed them they would produce an identical offspring. Those are called Land race strains and are so named because they grew for so long in one place they have a consistent genetic profile. Northern Lights is a well known land race that is so old that you get the same thing every time. Then you take that and cross that with another well known land race and create an F1 that is a true cross of the 2. F1's are know for vigor and grow faster and are very consistent. So all of the seeds from that breeding will be very similar. They may take on all the best traits of the parents or all the worst. So crossing 2 plants may not result in a great plant. Or it my result in a plant that grows hearty fast vigorous with big bulky hefty flowers that are low in potency.

So once you found an F1 you like that has some trait you are going after you have to stabilize this. You need to back breed this trait into the parent line of one or both of the parents to make this a dominate trait. It takes many generations. The fastest path is 6 generations I think. 10 is a better path. But it is very specific. You can't just cross breed randomly and get a stable strain. If you just keep breeding without going back you will just create random noise that may have some real cool once off never repeatable stuff here and there and the potential for some real nasty stuff too.

So for example....

I have in there Raspberry Cough (F1), White Widow(Stable Hybrid), New York Power Diesel(F1), (I had 2 more strains I started with but were males or failed to sprout).


RC is an F1 of a Cambodean Landrace x ICE (Stable classic Indica mix including Afghan and NL)

NYPD is an F1 of Mexican Sativa x Aurora Indica (NL x Afghan)

WW is a stable hybrid that is a cross of Brazilian Sativas and South East Indian Indicas.


So If I mix the WW Polen with the NYPD or the RC I could be getting anything under the sun as they have nothing in common. Now If I had some NL pollen I could back breed the RC or the NYPD to the NL and have a new version of NL that is cool and after a few more generations of selective breeding you could have something stable.

If I had a Land race Afghan I probably could back breed both the NYPD and the RC and do some selective breeding there and take those results and cross them for something wild.

But it gets real complicated. So edumacates yerself firs


Basic Principles of Genetics: Mendel's Genetics

 

[AKgramma]

So, if I breed two Bubblelicious (Nirvana's version of Bubblegum), I will get a genetic spread spanning all of its ancestors? Is it worth a try?

 

[Papageno]

Now you are asking the right questions.

I will have to look it up. Both are a Midwest bubblegum that was Taken and refined. They are like WW they are some hybrid that is stable. They went through the process and have made a stable strain seed that when breed with other seeds from that line makes the same offspring...generally. Like they made a new land race but not really. They just made a new strain. If it is stable then it has its own characteristics and is strong in it's own right. But they all go back to just a few main land race strains...when I say a few probably less than 100 but more than you would think. Probably 20 or so really well worked on. Northern Lights being the most famous.

So what you have to take into account is there are people who do This for a living and provide crosses. They have weeded out the bad stuff. That is what for example NYPD is. A good cross between 2 good phenotype results from extensive searching of a land race Mexican Sativa and a similar search through good phenos of a stable cross of NL with a Land Race Afghan. So that is a mix of three landraces from 3 different areas of the world that is 50% strong Mexican sativa and 50% split between the holly grail and the best Indica there is.

That sounds nice. That is an F1 and the beginnings of anything. If I cross that with something that is not back breeding into something from that past...if I move forward and cross that with say WW which is 50% Brazilian and 50% East Indian you are taking an F1 that is full of ideas and introducing a complete new set of genetics to mix and match from. And now you can have anything from all over the world including many ones you don't want.


BUT

If You were to take that F1 of Mexican Sativa x Aurora Indica and breed that back into Aurora Indica you would get something between the two. Likely it would be much like Aurora and you would know what you are going to have at the end of the day.

Some places as mentioned sell both landraces and their children. Many places only sell landraces as Fem'd seeds and wont allow you to breed theirs.

Having a stable land race to work around gives you a good ability to make you own seeds by always being able to back breed your own monstrosity in a pinch to get some decent seeds... so long as you other stuff is some grand child of your elder.


Like I had some Snow White males and I could have breed them to the WW but I didn't really want that. WW is a hybrid and its own monstrosity in and of itself and I am not trying to mess with that.

 

[Papageno]

Oh snap I forgot to make clear the hard part LOL

So the F1 generation is fairly consistent and all seeds are the same. They can be all over the place though. they can be the best of bot sides or the worst or likely somewhere in between. But when crossing 2 parents you will get the same seeds every time. At the F1 stage.

So they hunt through many combos to find good stable F1's that are consistent Phenotype that are desirable.When they put one on the market they have found a pair of parents whom they can clone and the off spring can have seeds born from that all come out excellent for various factors and are very consistent (or they may say not so). They have found that golden nugget and that is a great place to start.

Find a land race you like and find an exciting F1 from that and back breed that to the grandparent and find out what you have and that would be worth having a go at.


So the F1's are all over but whatever these 2 parents make that is what they make...
The F2s are just all over.

F is not the only nomenclature and the breeding lines get very complicated as you go sideways.

 

[AKgramma]

Now you are asking the right questions.

I will have to look it up. Both are a Midwest bubblegum that was Taken and refined. They are like WW they are some hybrid that is stable. They went through the process and have made a stable strain seed that when breed with other seeds from that line makes the same offspring...generally. Like they made a new land race but not really. They just made a new strain. If it is stable then it has its own characteristics and is strong in it's own right. But they all go back to just a few main land race strains...when I say a few probably less than 100 but more than you would think. Probably 20 or so really well worked on. Northern Lights being the most famous.

So what you have to take into account is there are people who do This for a living and provide crosses. They have weeded out the bad stuff. That is what for example NYPD is. A good cross between 2 good phenotype results from extensive searching of a land race Mexican Sativa and a similar search through good phenos of a stable cross of NL with a Land Race Afghan. So that is a mix of three landraces from 3 different areas of the world that is 50% strong Mexican sativa and 50% split between the holly grail and the best Indica there is.

That sounds nice. That is an F1 and the beginnings of anything. If I cross that with something that is not back breeding into something from that past...if I move forward and cross that with say WW which is 50% Brazilian and 50% East Indian you are taking an F1 that is full of ideas and introducing a complete new set of genetics to mix and match from. And now you can have anything from all over the world including many ones you don't want.


BUT

If You were to take that F1 of Mexican Sativa x Aurora Indica and breed that back into Aurora Indica you would get something between the two. Likely it would be much like Aurora and you would know what you are going to have at the end of the day.

Some places as mentioned sell both landraces and their children. Many places only sell landraces as Fem'd seeds and wont allow you to breed theirs.

Having a stable land race to work around gives you a good ability to make you own seeds by always being able to back breed your own monstrosity in a pinch to get some decent seeds... so long as you other stuff is some grand child of your elder.


Like I had some Snow White males and I could have breed them to the WW but I didn't really want that. WW is a hybrid and its own monstrosity in and of itself and I am not trying to mess with that.

What I found on the Nirvana Seed site is that the ancestry of BBL is unknown. But if you think I can mate a male BBL with a female BBL and get the same general characteristics (it's advertised as a Medicinal strain) Then I'll continue the experiment. This will be my first attempt at making seeds.

Reason I am asking, is that I don't want to waste my mental and physical energy on a project that is going to fail. If BBL lives up to its hype, I want to grow more from seed.

 

[AKgramma]

Oh snap I forgot to make clear the hard part LOL

So the F1 generation is fairly consistent and all seeds are the same. They can be all over the place though. they can be the best of bot sides or the worst or likely somewhere in between. But when crossing 2 parents you will get the same seeds every time. At the F1 stage.

So they hunt through many combos to find good stable F1's that are consistent Phenotype that are desirable.When they put one on the market they have found a pair of parents whom they can clone and the off spring can have seeds born from that all come out excellent for various factors and are very consistent (or they may say not so). They have found that golden nugget and that is a great place to start.

Find a land race you like and find an exciting F1 from that and back breed that to the grandparent and find out what you have and that would be worth having a go at.


So the F1's are all over but whatever these 2 parents make that is what they make...
The F2s are just all over.

F is not the only nomenclature and the breeding lines get very complicated as you go sideways.

That is a whole lot more information than I need, unfortunately, and I did take genetics in College, so am aware of Mendel's work. I'm not out to produce a stable new strain, just make it so I don't have to buy seeds from the Netherlands.

I dont know which F BBL is, but am sure getting the gamut of phenotypes from the seeds!

 

[Papageno]

yeah that is like WW and is a stable strain. That is not an F1. They will say F1 on them in the description when they are and they will say stable if they are. The ancestry has been around for nearly 30 years and has probably been stable for more than 20ish. Bubble gum won the cannabis cup in the mid 90's so around 20 years ago after that one was established. then it was refined into this and it has been around since the 90's I think so it is a stable strain.

It is a refined Indica and is very popular and that might help you know what not to cross with it.

It is a chicken and the egg hunt. First you want to stabilize the line. Once you have it stabilized you want to improve it. Back and forth over and over it never ends.

But if I were to take the RC and X it with another F1 from different parent like WW that have nothing in common...that is just a waste of time. Even if I found that awesome plant I couldn't reuse the genetics as they would be scattered and poor. I could not back breed it well and maintain what I want easily.

So it takes a long time to breed in multiple traits to get what one desires.

 

[salchipapa27]

Well, I am definitely reconsidering this breeding program of mine for a little while then lol. Thanks VI!

 

[Papageno]

If you go in the right direction you can get some interesting results but if you go the wrong way you have a good chance of getting something Whack...like both sides have a recessive gene that wins.

Usually you end up somewhere between the parents. Which if you are crossing to similar strains like an F1 or F2 of back to a parent you know what you are getting into. Usually when breeding for traits, breeders go to that F2 and find that amazing one then back breed that one a few times into the main line. Create some combo of the main line and this new trait (usually even better). Breeders may actually back breed both main lines which takes longer to get stable but is worth it.

There are lots of ways to do it and even many more ways to mess it up and permanently screw up the genetics. As in they will always have offspring and you can grow weed. Do whatever you want. But crossing certain things leads to who knows what and stuff that doesn't matter because the traits you care about are non transferable and gone after that plant.

It only matters if you can reproduce it. If you can gleen a trait into a stable line then you have made something.

If you want make some seeds so as just to not buy a $3 seed then I think you need to think about your finances. (land races

If you want to make seeds for fun do whatever you want.

If you want to try and make something cool start with a mainline you like and an F1 off that line you like and try and stabilize the F1. Clone it and run many breeding with it against the parent and inbreed the offspring back and forth until you have a stable line that looks like that F1. That is actually making something. But there is a right way to do it and you can look that up.

 

[AKgramma]

VI: To be perfectly honest, it's the idea of buying overseas and risk having the package confiscated that bothers me. It's not legal, either, but sometimes there is no other economical option to obtain seeds, unless one makes their own. I also had to call my credit card company to talk them into approving the overseas purchase. :-(

 

[Papageno]

Not much to do about that really. I mean I can drive a few minutes to the dispensary to get clones or a few seeds. I buy from Nirvana because what you get for price...it can't be beat. Please tell me if you know of one. The selection of seeds is small at the dispensaries. I haven't been to them all but online is so much easier.

But hey making it to go independent you will be fine.

You will be fine, and you can reuse the same pollen many times and line breed that one.

So grow a pile of them this next round from the seeds you make and from the best female you either take a clone (should have done that before bloom) and pollinate or pollinate some flower on this one and keep going until you have enough.

I need to shut down this grow ASAP so I may not pollinate and seed this one and just let it go but I may do it near the end and show you a few ways I do it.

You don't have to grow the clone that you are seeding in ideal conditions becasue you are not trying to make it high potency. It helps to be in nice conditions but it doesn't hurt to be a little whack. So you can take a clone from the good mother and grow it nicely and start it flowering and then pollinate it and leave it in the corner of the bloom tent or bloom it on its own and it will ripen up eventually and have nice seeds. I mean don't abuse it...but if you want to convert your tent back to veg you can through this girl in a closet sealed up each day to give it the darkness it needs. She doesn't need perfect conditions and wont hermie because she has already been pollinated. Just treat her decently and let her ripen and you will be fine.

One small female clone can make more then you know what to do with. 5 years of seeds easily without even trying. That is not including cloning. If you can clone well then this becomes just a matter of time. You can keep reusing the same mother or father over and over.

 

[AKgramma]

Thanks for the encouragement, VI! I am assuming, of course, that I actually succeed at this! Just put two more 4-month old BBL's in flower, so I'll have something to choose from when they finally show sex.