Verb's Gorillas In Hempy Buckets - Under QB288 240W LED

[Verbalist]

3/2/2022 Journal update


Howdy 420fam!
Garden looks green except the GG#1 in DWC. This time I’m actually having a problem to diagnose what is this or what causes it. May I summon @Rexer and @FelipeBlu - or anyone is welcome to guide me if youve got any tips!

I was wondering if this is a Calcium excess?
Growth seem to be little stunted and new leaves having reddish/orange splots and burn marks.
Lower fans looks like theyre bout to get some chlorotic symptoms soon. (Green looks to be fading from the tissue leaving green veins). So I thought Calcium is blocking Mg uptake(?) Also the newest leaves being twisted and the most foliar symptoms are visible there.

Reservoir TDS is ~500ppm. N&K ratio is bout 1:1.5, K:Ca:Mg is close to 20.75

She did fine with the same TDS/EC before Remo nutes. Their micro has 1% chelated Ca and Ive used Canna’s CalMag agent for about 100-150ppm (to get the starting water somewhere close to 200ppm) before adding any nutes.

RH/VPD should be fine. Around 40-45% RH, canopy temp ~24-25C.
Excess Nitrogen also visible but foliage is feeling stiff and dry.

Plant is only 24 days and it already forms a lot pistils.

GG#2 in coco and Wedding Cake thrives.
WC got topped yesterday.

Dunno yet how this plant will be trained.

And couple photos from 3/1 - 3/2/2022:

0C589FC6-47DD-40FC-92C1-61C49866F36E.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022
• fastbuds gorilla glue autos

Gorilla Glue auto (DWC)
3/1 - Day 23

8563DA2F-130D-46FF-90A7-73EFEE44D499.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

3/1 - Day 23
GG#1 roots

B672698F-BF9A-4062-9A62-A3FA426EDCA3.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

3/2/2022
Auto tent groupie

817749F0-41F8-41E5-BFBB-45355DD7AD4D.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

Gorilla Glue auto (Coco)
3/2 - Day 24

F260FEED-FCEE-457F-93FC-4B88901F785F.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

Gorilla Glue auto (DWC)
3/2 - Day 24

CE9A6C5E-D8A8-4A1D-B9C9-3293FA8F3C9F.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

GG#1
3/1 - Day 23
Quad-line sideview

Thanks for stoppin by

- Verb

 

[Rexer]

3/2/2022 Journal update


Howdy 420fam!
Garden looks green except the GG#1 in DWC. This time I’m actually having a problem to diagnose what is this or what causes it. May I summon @Rexer and @FelipeBlu - or anyone is welcome to guide me if youve got any tips!

I was wondering if this is a Calcium excess?
Growth seem to be little stunted and new leaves having reddish/orange splots and burn marks.
Lower fans looks like theyre bout to get some chlorotic symptoms soon. (Green looks to be fading from the tissue leaving green veins). So I thought Calcium is blocking Mg uptake(?) Also the newest leaves being twisted and the most foliar symptoms are visible there.

Reservoir TDS is ~500ppm. N&K ratio is bout 1:1.5, K:Ca:Mg is close to 20.75

She did fine with the same TDS/EC before Remo nutes. Their micro has 1% chelated Ca and Ive used Canna’s CalMag agent for about 100-150ppm (to get the starting water somewhere close to 200ppm) before adding any nutes.

RH/VPD should be fine. Around 40-45% RH, canopy temp ~24-25C.
Excess Nitrogen also visible but foliage is feeling stiff and dry.

Plant is only 24 days and it already forms a lot pistils.

GG#2 in coco and Wedding Cake thrives.
WC got topped yesterday.

Dunno yet how this plant will be trained.

And couple photos from 3/1 - 3/2/2022:

0C589FC6-47DD-40FC-92C1-61C49866F36E.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022
• fastbuds gorilla glue autos

Gorilla Glue auto (DWC)
3/1 - Day 23

8563DA2F-130D-46FF-90A7-73EFEE44D499.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

3/1 - Day 23
GG#1 roots

B672698F-BF9A-4062-9A62-A3FA426EDCA3.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

3/2/2022
Auto tent groupie

817749F0-41F8-41E5-BFBB-45355DD7AD4D.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

Gorilla Glue auto (Coco)
3/2 - Day 24

F260FEED-FCEE-457F-93FC-4B88901F785F.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

Gorilla Glue auto (DWC)
3/2 - Day 24

CE9A6C5E-D8A8-4A1D-B9C9-3293FA8F3C9F.jpeg

• Verbalist
• Mar 2, 2022

GG#1
3/1 - Day 23
Quad-line sideview

Thanks for stoppin by

- Verb

Hey V!

That's a tough one. I think your on the right track with the calcium. I'm not so sure on the toxicity part, and i suspect a possible lockout to be more likely.

I'd wait to see what FelipeBlu says, but that's my suspicion.

How's you're environment been? She also seems a bit droopy? Or is that me

 

[FelipeBlu]

Hola Verb

What has your pH been running in the DWC?

 

[Roy Growin]

That's a bit of a toughie - think I'd plain water for a couple of days
Gut says K & Micros, I would knock up some half strength 5-5-5, try to balance things up a bit
Plants that don't grow nice irritate the feck out of me lol
Sure they will be fine Verb - carry on growing...

 

[Verbalist]

Hey V!

That's a tough one. I think your on the right track with the calcium. I'm not so sure on the toxicity part, and i suspect a possible lockout to be more likely.

I'd wait to see what FelipeBlu says, but that's my suspicion.

How's you're environment been? She also seems a bit droopy? Or is that me

Yup Ca tox most likely wont happen. Dunno it indeed could be a lockout due the not very high Ca ppm..
Environments is good. ~40-45% RH, constant breeze and day temps between 22-24C.

What Ive read Calcium excess makes the plant droopy/wilting looking.

Hola Verb

What has your pH been running in the DWC?

Hi Felipe!
Past couple days it tend to have been on the more acid side due the Remo nutes pH stabilizers.. It keeps falling down to 5.3-5.5 before Ive adjusted it up. But most of the time its pretty stable betweem 5.7-5.8.

Changed the res water and reduced 30% CalMag and Micro dose (for less Calcium) - ended up again at about 500ppm. Didn’t see improvement in 24hrs so I just scooped off 2.5L of solution and replaced 2.5L of plain p’H water and little bump on fulvic. Ended with 410-420ppm / 0.8EC.
I’ll be watching the next couple days if it gets better.

That's a bit of a toughie - think I'd plain water for a couple of days
Gut says K & Micros, I would knock up some half strength 5-5-5, try to balance things up a bit
Plants that don't grow nice irritate the feck out of me lol
Sure they will be fine Verb - carry on growing...

thanks for the input Growings.
Didn’t end up running plain water only, but diluded the reservoir solution for a bit.
And thanks - hopefully they just grow out of that.

…But today fucked up even worse LOL. I don’t get this how I get all this bad karma from left right and center in every possible aspect.
But ye today broke the whole branch as I only do have four.
It was barely hanging there from the tissue so tried to tape it but aint looking very promising right now.
Dunno if I’m able to tie that branch down to keep tha canopy flat.

Well we’ll see how this turns out. Not the most succesful growth so far
And wont get any better if I’m not able to get the new sun.

Well now its time for a fat noon yoyo.


- V

 

[Roy Growin]

Yup Ca tox most likely wont happen. Dunno it indeed could be a lockout due the not very high Ca ppm..
Environments is good. ~40-45% RH, constant breeze and day temps between 22-24C.

What Ive read Calcium excess makes the plant droopy/wilting looking.


Hi Felipe!
Past couple days it tend to have been on the more acid side due the Remo nutes pH stabilizers.. It keeps falling down to 5.3-5.5 before Ive adjusted it up. But most of the time its pretty stable betweem 5.7-5.8.

Changed the res water and reduced 30% CalMag and Micro dose (for less Calcium) - ended up again at about 500ppm. Didn’t see improvement in 24hrs so I just scooped off 2.5L of solution and replaced 2.5L of plain p’H water and little bump on fulvic. Ended with 410-420ppm / 0.8EC.
I’ll be watching the next couple days if it gets better.


thanks for the input Growings.
Didn’t end up running plain water only, but diluded the reservoir solution for a bit.
And thanks - hopefully they just grow out of that.

…But today fucked up even worse LOL. I don’t get this how I get all this bad karma from left right and center in every possible aspect.
But ye today broke the whole branch as I only do have four.
It was barely hanging there from the tissue so tried to tape it but aint looking very promising right now.
Dunno if I’m able to tie that branch down to keep tha canopy flat.

Well we’ll see how this turns out. Not the most succesful growth so far
And wont get any better if I’m not able to get the new sun.

Well now its time for a fat noon yoyo.


- V

 

[Roy Growin]

Nute problems and busting branches?
Who are you and what have you done with the real @Verbalist?
*chuckles up sleeve*

 

[Verbalist]

Nute problems and busting branches?
Who are you and what have you done with the real @Verbalist?
*chuckles up sleeve*

Haha thats just mee bruv
Remo’s nutrients acting way differently than for example GHE’s.
And Ive no idea how the stem snapped… I wasn’t even touching it. It must be because of the soft ties on which the branch was tied, but I don't see how the whole branch could be so fragile. I just lift the lid and the ties must have applied too much pressure on the particular branch.


So okay okay.. Plant seem to be getting worse now.
I’m suspecting an excess of Calcium which has locked out micros. Especially worried about the Boron. @farside05 @FelipeBlu doesn’t this look like a Boron deficiency?
- New growth appears twisted, discoloured
- new shoots growing abnormally and they may contort
- Chlorosis/nectoric spots visible on mid/lower fans (due the some mobile/semi mobile nutrient defient symptom?) And chlorotic spots only visible between the veins and spreads from inner leave towards the edges, starting from close to the petioles.
- Leaves feeling so damn stiff and dry
- Lower fans are so dry that they brittle if scrubbing them

One day example how the new shoots grow abnormally:

Yesterday:

Today:

Mid fans interveinal chlorosis and new shoots orange/red/brown splotches:

New shoots foliage - dead spots, through ”burnt holes” and twisted growth:

Then to the more tech side…
So far Ive mixed my reservoirs like this and in this order:
~0.25ml/L Canna’s CalMag agent per 10L of solutio to ger my starting water about 150-200ppm. CalMag analysis: N:5.9%, CaO: 6.8% which is 5% elemental Ca and 3.2% MgO.

- Then Remos Micro.. I didn’t realize it has 3% Ca on it and 1% is chelated. Micro is 3% N in nitrates, so the N:Ca ratio is close to 1:1. I’ve used 1ml/L Remo’s Micro which should provide about 35ppm N, 33ppm more Ca and this is chelated Ca. And this is amongst the CalMag agent which already ”bumped” my starting water ppm up to 0.3-0.4EC/ 150-250ppm max.
Remo’s Micro and Bloom has 0.02% Boron BUT it’s derived form is Borax in both bottles.

Nb! Neither their Micro or Bloom doesn’t contain any listed Sulphur!

Micro: 3-0-1
Bloom: 1-4-7
I’ve been mixing pretty close to 1:1 Micro&Bloom (1ml/L Micro and 0.65-1ml/L Bloom) and as both have 0.02% Boron content so isn’t it about 0.5-1ppm of B? And Ive understood that should be sufficient amount?

Been runnin about 400-500ppm reservoir. RH, temp/VPD should be fine. pH has been between 5.4-5.9 range.

When we looking at the Mulder’s chart, I guess we could assume excess Calcium could be behind that, am I right?
N:K ratio is like 1:1.5 so theres definitely no excess Potassium. Plants has excess Nitrogen which also seem to affect on Boron uptake(?)

And comparing this to the foliar symptoms:

The total amount of Calcium I’m providing is something like 60-90ppm total and 1/3 of it is chelated.

It feels and looks like the plant is lacking most of the micros or they being locked out.

Am I going in the completely wrong direction right here? As the Boron tox can express quite similar symptoms..

Should I leave CalMag completely out of the line and get the Ca from my micro and use Canna’s 7%MgO additive to give them about 20-30ppm of Mg?
How about the S?

Last night scooped away about 4-5liters from the reservoir and replaced with pH’d water. Ending TDS was showing 270ppm / 0.5EC
And today going to make a new patch. Just wondering how should I proceed. Incase its not due the Ca then I’m most likely going to create even more harm.

Her sister Glue in coco is on day 27 (same aged as the DWC plant) and shes just bout to start the stretch phase and doing all okay. Ive fed her with same str feed.
DWC plant unsymmetrical node spacing looks like it wont stretch/grow much anymore. Shoots looking like they would burst out the pistils soon - but the plant stopped producing new pistils two days ago.

Roots are looking super good and healthy tho - which would indicate more into the environmental problems. As I said temps are fine. Tent day temp 22-23C, canopy temp 24C, night time temp 19-20C. RH 40-45% and VPD is ~1.3kPa.

HMU if you need more information regarding!
Thank you everyone if you’ve a tip, hunch or the knowledge what I should do.

I’ve never experienced this kind of situation before. So I’m feeling totally clueless and newbie right now

Doing a proper post later today as I get the res water changed and irrigated the plants.

Appreciate the help


- Verb

 

[Roy Growin]

I don't do hydro [well, coco] but your feed seems very weak to me - 0.25ml CaMg per 10L isn't going to do much surely?
I also don't use EC/ppm, I measure out by w/w and keep it simple as possible
1ml/L CaMg, 2-4ml/L Grow/Bloom, 2-4ml/L Micros/Kelp etc and personally I run pH 5.8-6.2
There is some kind of imbalance for sure - P/Ca/B but trying to unravel that is nigh impossible
I think if you ignore the guesstimations and simplify your regime the problem may resolve itself
Hope an opinion is food for thought; if not, just ignore me

 

[Verbalist]

I don't do hydro [well, coco] but your feed seems very weak to me - 0.25ml CaMg per 10L isn't going to do much surely?

Yes when inserting the values into the ppm calculator it says 0.25ml/L would only provide like +-35ppm of N, 38ppm Ca and 14ppm Mg. But when I apply more than 3ml per 10L (0.3ml/l) CalMag agent that rises the EC up to 0.4-0.5 - So Canna’s CalMag agent being very concentrated stuff. It is same product, the old name was ”coco buffer” or sumtin.
Then the Remo’s nutes - I just read some of their FAQ and one question was ”I’m having way lower EC value than before I started to use Remo nutrients”. The answear was the ingredients, chelates and their availability. …In otherwods they tryna promote this ”less is more” thing with their nutes.

There is some kind of imbalance for sure - P/Ca/B but trying to unravel that is nigh impossible
I think if you ignore the guesstimations and simplify your regime the problem may resolve itself

Indeed. The plant was doing fine the first ~14 days before switched into Remos.
But if the plant has B def or Boron being locked out, thats kinda crucial for the further growth. Like you could just google ”cannabis Boron deficiency” or ”plants boron deficiency” and same kind of horror pictures pops up
And I already took couple pages to read about the purpose of boron in plants, and seem to be more rare than other micro deficiencses.

I could just try n wait to see if it sorts out by itself, but being fukkin worried if it hermies. As this strain, original glue was originally bred from a hermie plant, then theres probably a greater risk of hermies… And she been under the stress for almost a week now. Not to talk about the broken branch and heavy handed training from the beginning. And pretty damn crucial moment when the plant should be poking out the pistils and have everything on balance as the stretch phase is bout to begin.

Getting similar vibes as with the previous critical xl lol fingers crossed now.

Hope an opinion is food for thought; if not, just ignore me

Every possible opinion, thought, hunch and tip is more than welcome! Why would I ignore you bro. I wont forget the watering routine tips you gave me back in the days for the small air pots. Even tho it’s not related to this - your help is always appreciated.

 

[Tokin Roll]

How is it going @Verbalist

It looks like you have a little issue with your DWC.
Is the coco another plant?
The reason I ask is I use hydroton, not coco and there is a big difference on caring for them.

I have a bag of coco, just never got around to play in it.

Did you flush when you originally changed nutrients?

I see a few things, but the first thing you may want to think about is a flush with about 300 ppm's of nothing but cal-mag for 24 hours ph'd to 5.8 of course. Try to keep your solution temp. between 18 - 20c. Then do you solution change.

What is your normal solution temperature at change and normally?

You might want to raise your solution level also to prevent cord roots, unless you don't mind them.

I just read this and will read it again to see if I missed something.

Stay safe, and grew well my friend,
Tok..

If I am barking up the wrong tree, please let me know.

edit: Forgot to ask are you using tap. well, RO water, or something else?

 

[FelipeBlu]

I’ve never had to deal with a Boron def but this does look like that to me.

I don’t think you really need to exceed 100 ppm Ca.

 

[Rexer]

I wonder if you would be able to lower the micro, and get your micronutrients from the kelp?
I haven't had my yet,so that may be way off.

Is there some other products that you have used, and still kicking around?

 

[FelipeBlu]

~0.25ml/L Canna’s CalMag agent per 10L of solutio to ger my starting water about 150-200ppm. CalMag analysis: N:5.9%, CaO: 6.8% which is 5% elemental Ca and 3.2% MgO.

Just a minute - I need some clarification. 0.25ml/L at 4.85% Ca is only 12 ppm Ca. How does adding this to your great Finnish tap water get you to 150 - 200 ppm?

How much of the Remo with 3% Ca are you using?

 

[Verbalist]

Hey Tok and thanks for your input!

How is it going @Verbalist

It looks like you have a little issue with your DWC.
Is the coco another plant?
The reason I ask is I use hydroton, not coco and there is a big difference on caring for them.

Yes the another GG is planted in 1 gallon air pot and using raw coco as the medium. Potted plant.
So not to confuse you - I wouldn’t use coco in DWC netcups.

This is the ”coco Gorilla”

And for DWC, yes I’m also using hydroton. Natural clay made into pebbles.

Did you flush when you originally changed nutrients?

No I didn’t. In hindsight I prob should have done that. As it looks like the plant reacts so differently when nutrients derived form is different.

I see a few things, but the first thing you may want to think about is a flush with about 300 ppm's of nothing but cal-mag for 24 hours ph'd to 5.8 of course. Try to keep your solution temp. between 18 - 20c. Then do you solution change.

I see your point there flushing. But I’d guess its the excess Calcium creating the lockouts so prob don’t want to feed them more Calcium than it consumes.
300ppm of most of the CalMag products would be close to like ~150ppm Ca, 100ppm Nitrogen and 50ppm Mg. Not the exact values, but indicative.

What is your normal solution temperature at change and normally?

Between 18-20C. If the res temp rises above 20C then I just let cool air in from outside or using a frozen plastic thingys to lower it down to 18-19C.

You might want to raise your solution level also to prevent cord roots, unless you don't mind them.

Solution level is bout 1.5-2" below the netcup. Last round kept pretty much same level and didn’t have to deal with too many cords.

edit: Forgot to ask are you using tap. well, RO water, or something else?

Tap water. I posted the water quality analysis in my prev journal.
Its soft tap water here. Between 90-110ppm. And it was 19ppm of Ca in my tap water.
I always let the water sit for at least 48hrs before using it (to let some of the chloride evaporate)

I’ve never had to deal with a Boron def but this does look like that to me.

I don’t think you really need to exceed 100 ppm Ca.

Me neither. And I read that Boron has a very narrow range to bounce between.
CBT article said that 0.2ppm most likely results in a deficiency and going over 3ppm could results to the toxicity.
IMO it’s more likely a deficiency (most likely its being locked out?) than a tox.

And ye last round as I used GHE’s micro for only Ca source, most of the times I calculated my Ca ppm’s wrong.
Max dose of GHE Micro during the Purple Punch growth was 1.5ml/L and that gives 90ppm of Ca + tap water. So barely went over 100ppm.

This chelated Calcium is whole new thing to me. It seem to be very effective in DWC.
Ive had about 60-80ppm of Ca and can’t figure out anything else which could cause this.

I wonder if you would be able to lower the micro, and get your micronutrients from the kelp?
I haven't had my yet,so that may be way off.

Is there some other products that you have used, and still kicking around?

Hi Rex!
Ye Ive tried to foliar feed kelp for two nights now. Haven’t put it into the res yet as the plant is growing so slowly and Ascophylly nodosum applied to the roots forces the plant hormones for more root growth which seem to slow down the growth above ground. (At least with the doses that Ive tried)
But could try to apply like 1/16tsp per gallon and see if the trace amounts only would do the trick?

 

[farside05]

How does adding this to your great Finnish tap water get you to 150 - 200 ppm?

Did you factor in the Euro to USD conversion rate? Sorry, couldn't help it. I'm trying to go back to bed so I won't bust out my calculators and play along at this moment.

 

[Verbalist]

Just a minute - I need some clarification. 0.25ml/L at 4.85% Ca is only 12 ppm Ca. How does adding this to your great Finnish tap water get you to 150 - 200 ppm?

How much of the Remo with 3% Ca are you using?

Same thing I’m wondering… Canna’s CalMag bottle wont mention anything about the weight. Found one site saying it would weight 1.35kg

Tap water is 90-110ppm. First res for GG I applied 0.35ml/L (3.5ml total in 10liters) and that rise the ppm up to 230-250ppm.
The next I tried to lower it down to 0.25ml/L and ended with about 150-170ppm.

How much of the Remo with 3% Ca are you using?

Remo micro 3% N (nitrates only), 1% K2O, 3% Ca (which would be 4.2% CaO?) and 1% of that Calcium is chelated. And rest of the trace elements.

Ive used micro 1ml/L (10ml/10L) which should in my understanding provide: 35ppm N, 10ppm K, 33ppm Ca.

After the micro and CalMag being mixed the EC has been 0.6-0.7 / 330-350ppm.

After the dinner I’m bout to mix up the new res. I can send you the more specific values as it looks like Ive to start log things.

 

[FelipeBlu]

As I recall, your water only contains 19 ppm Ca

This, plus the 12 ppm from the CalMag and 30 ppm from the Remo micro only adds up to about 61 ppm. I think you need more Ca and that’s what the top growth deformities are from.
There isn’t enough Ca to affect B.

 

[FelipeBlu]

BTW, your water also contains (among other things):

11 ppm chlorine
9.8 ppm sulfate
4.4 ppm sodium
1.5 ppm magnesium
and only 0.006 ppm boron lol

 

[Verbalist]

As I recall, your water only contains 19 ppm Ca

Yes thats what Ive been saying my tap water is 90-110ppm and has 19ppm Ca.

This, plus the 12 ppm from the CalMag and 30 ppm from the Remo micro only adds up to about 61 ppm. I think you need more Ca and that’s what the top growth deformities are from.
There isn’t enough Ca to affect B.

I calculated Canna CalMag’s Ca 14ppm at 0.25ml/L and Remo micro is 33ppm Ca at 1ml/L dose and then well, how much that calcium chelate adds up weight in total Calcium availability? And regarding the plants current size, it aint very big isn’t 60-70ppm of Ca for that aged plant enough?

Remo FAQ says that Micro should provide enough Ca with recommended doses and ”but it is good to have the CalMag always available”..

Also as I did the res change today, there was a small amount, but more than a few dead root tips floating..

And I don’t get where the other micro nutrient deficiency symptoms then comes from? For example there is yellowing between the veins (veins staying green) and it spreads from in towards the leaf margins. Could indicate Fe def, but it doesn’t usually appear yellowing interveinal only.

And Remo’s Bloom also has 0.02% B and sufficient amount of micros all chelated - like micro’s EDTA and EDDHA. So micros has been available in solution and pH has been in range.

PS. Changed the res water today and Ca runs even lower now (55ppm) and 30ppm Mg. Plant looks happier now but is that amount of Ca too little? Is like 70ppm lowest value where to start?
I just have a hunch because the plant growth slowed down and almost stunted as I’ve provided the one res which were 76ppm of Ca total.

Am I going completely wrong direction?
-V

E: the water analysis doesn’t contain chloride, ewwww… 6ppm Chloride also. And thats the one which doesn’t really like to evaporate. But as Ive already had one, well I guess succesful enough dwc growth and next one is comming. Speaking of which….Damn TD swell during the PK boost week. Haven’t updated there again. I’ll promise tomorrow - I’ll post some real drippers roll up your sleeves ready