SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[MagicJim]

If we could know the temp that the terpenes and flavonoids disapate we could wait until the temp is below that. I just am concerned about moisture in my oil. Maybe I should not be as there is water in the solvent.

It's the internet so this information is subject to verification.

Terpene boiling points

 

[JBUptown]

That's my funky humor and I'm glad you caught it ... that's why it's in the first sentence! Heee...
And I changed the spelling of "definitely" in your response

I know you meant if I ever need a proofreader JB.

Thank you for the praise. I do this for all of you. It brings me so much pleasure to be so buried in study it's almost sinful, to be honest, so to have such a need for the information drives my passion level up a couple notches. If I help only one person it was worth the effort, and we're already way beyond that now.

I'll definitely keep you in mind JB. Thank you for the offer. Your parents were wise people.

 

[panacea]

I have tried different ways of decarbing. The method I use now I find is the absolute best way. For a Dry material decarb I use my BBQ( outdoors obviously) I bought at Walmart(198$ a four burner with a top warming rack which is important).I realize anyone with close neighbours may have an issue with this .So I will put my dry material into the turkey bag and place this onto the top warm rack which has a temp gauge that feeds through the top of the bbq lid(came factory like this) . I also drilled a hole through the top of my bbq lid and inserted a mercury thermometer for cross reference since it is the most accurate(have had to many inconsistencies with the laser thermos even with the expensive ones this is why I went from decarbing the oil back to decarbing the dry material. Depending on the ambient temperature I will usually need only one burner on at a very low temperature with the lid closed, I will then use a wooden wedge to slide under my lid to vent a little if it gets to hot. As I stated you may have to fiddle with the temp gauge a bit and the wedge to get it to the proper temp this is why I would get this figured out before I placed my material into the bbq. I can achieve a constant and accurate temp of my desire with this method.I just find conventional ovens are based on average temperature and not a constant temp, one minute it is 250 the next 300 the next 200 etc...I just find it a poor way to decarb Imo. I may made this seem complicated but it is actually very simple and precise.

 

[SweetSue]

Thank you panacea. That's a great write up. Do you have any objection to me reformatting your post to make it easier to read? Please don't hesitate to say no. It's an obsession I've thrust on many members over the time I've been here.

I found it frustrating to learn that the laser thermometers would be so poorly manufactured. Thank goodness I didn't purchase one. So my suspicion that decarb would be more controllable with dry material instead of oil turns out to be correct?

 

[Scottay]

That chart kinda looks like my brain activity! Very manic! Hahaha

 

[fookinel]

MagicJim, I apologise in advance if it seems like I'm bombarding you with questions, it's just that I was looking at and posted about various carrier oils recently (here for example, which includes grape seed oil) so I'm interested in understanding what other people are doing and why they decided to do it that way

I used grape seed oil because a friend told me that it could be used versus olive oil. It just sounded good to me back then and now I find it to be a long-chain fatty acid and has some other benefits related to bio-availability and that's all I know about that.

Can you elaborate on what additional benefits grape seed oil has for bioavailability?

I take it sublingual because it made sense based on my understanding of getting it to my system as efficiently as possible. One has to understand that all my previous uses were from combustion inhalation (smoking).

Do you take the whole amount in one go or do you take one drop and give it a minute before adding another drop, and so on?

 

[fookinel]

It's the internet so this information is subject to verification.

Terpene boiling points

I have this page bookmarked if you want to check to see if they correlate

 

[SweetSue]

I have this page bookmarked if you want to check to see if they correlate

Yes indeed, they correlate.

 

[MagicJim]

MagicJim, I apologise in advance if it seems like I'm bombarding you with questions, it's just that I was looking at and posted about various carrier oils recently (here for example, which includes grape seed oil) so I'm interested in understanding what other people are doing and why they decided to do it that way

fookinel.....I don't mind the questions. I see from your link that you are a caregiver. I've seen threads come up with disclaimers at times so that hard feelings or worse don't result from someone taking action based on another's comments. So you should know that I'm just an old stoner.

My personal disclaimer: No one gets out of here alive.

Why did I decide to do it that way? I was in a jam. I had never made oil before and I had what I thought was a mess on my hands. It's documented somewhere around here and I put pieces of it in my blog. Anyway, I finally got oil but it was just a sticky mess. I'm a recovering alcoholic so I couldn't use more solvent to thin what I had but knew that a carrier of some sort could be used. I have to admit that I only started using olive oil about 8 years ago. Before it was just any oil off the shelf.

I had a small bottle of jojoba that I probably could have used but I had only used that to mix tea tree oil for a topical. I did some research and determined that grape seed would be the choice. Simple as that. A decision had to be made and it wasn't a life or death situation for me. I wasn't intending to use the oil for tacking. Tacking is a protocol to get THC into the system so as not to get high or avoid euphoria.

For me that is contrary to why I use cannabis.

Can you elaborate on what additional benefits grape seed oil has for bioavailability?

I'd love to help you with the comment I made about this but it was something I had read that I probably didn't even understand. I like this website so you might just review what they say about grape seed oil. Health Benefits of Grape Seed Oil

Do you take the whole amount in one go or do you take one drop and give it a minute before adding another drop, and so on?

I don't have any specific dosage. Usually I'll do just one drop under the tongue. Occasionally, I've done 2 drops and that's a pretty good high for me. I have never done 3 drops at a time but have added the third drop after four hours or so but then was drowsy. Oil was made from Jack Herer and White Widow so I haven't a clue where the drowsy comes from. But now I'm fairly confident that 3 drops would be about my limit. Keep in mind here that I couldn't even guess about my concentration since no measurements were taken during processing the oil.

I sure hope that helps. If I can be of additional assistance, just let me know.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Hey, Scottay! Welcome to the party!

A nerd, eh? Well, here's a little something to test out your nerd quotient. Help me decipher this:

That's a helluva flow chart, right there! But it's important, so we need to tease out an understanding. It came from this Journal of British Pharmacology article. This article gives the best overview I've seen yet on exactly what the endocannabinoid system is, and how the phytocannabinoids (THC, CBD, etc.) work to signal other enzymes and compounds to attack tumorous cell growth in the following ways:

- Inhibition of cell proliferation and migration
- Induction of apoptosis
- Reduction of tumour growth

Note the new player in the receptor landscape. Along with CB1 and CB2, we now have GPR55 (G-Protien Receptor 55) that works to provide a signaling pathway to arrest cancer cell proliferation (CB1 & 2 are actually G-protein coupled receptors as well) . Still need to figure out what TRPV1 does in the big scheme of things (but he looks to be helping kill cancer so props to you, my friend). And apparently the endocannabinoid system consists of lipid-signaling molecules generated in cell membranes that bind and activate the various receptors. I need to study this article further, but the system is starting to make sense. And I could use some help. I know we can count on fookinel to join in, but we could sure use another set of eyes, Scottay!

Ok so this chart is the signaling cascade that links cannabinoid receptors to cell cycle and the classic apoptosis cascade(down bottom). Cell cycle is the way that a cell conducts itself through checkpoints. These checkpoints assure that the cell will not copy itself in the wrong sequence (splitting before copying the chromosomes for example. At each checkpoint the conditions in the cell are assessed and the cell either moves on to the next part of the cycle of is arrested at the checkpoint(for example until the chromosomes are copied). Irrevocable failure of the cell to complete a task turns on the apoptosis cascade down bottom (Bax/Bcl2). P53 is a protein that is instrumental in this process and defects in that protein lead to aggressive cancers. Cyclins control cell cycle checkpoints and when something goes awry caspases cleave the cyclins and send the cell down the apoptosis pathway.

In a chart like this any enhancing relationship is an arrow and any inhibiting relationship is a line with a perpendicular line at the end. Most of these inter protein signaling pathways are accomplished with the transfer of phosphorus the bodies signaling molecule. Proteins that phosphorylase other proteins are kinases. Proteins that remove phosphorus are phosphatases. MapK means Map kinase.

TRPV1 is a channel protein. It is involved in transporting something inside the cell (looks like hydrogen peroxide and calcium both of which are involved in apoptosis) . I am not familiar with it but that is the shape used to indicate a transporter.

Reading a diagram like this shows you all the checks and balances in place to prevent cancer. We must examine cancer for what it is at its most simplest.

Cancer is caused by any cell that for whatever reason forgets to stop growing and dividing.

That's simple statement is very powerful really. Any mistake in this pathway, any protein that is made from a mutated gene so it is not as effective, this is going to induce cancer at some point if it slips past our detection and elimination systems.

I am going to make some canna coconut oil and my idea is to decarboxylate while extracting in a sous vide apparatus. I love sous vide for cooking because it keeps all the aromas trapped in the bag. Basically for those who don't know, sous vide is cooking in a sealed plastic bag in a recirculating water bath of controlled temperature. I can put the herb in the bag and add the coconut oil, then remove all the air from the bag. Leave it in the sous vide cooker, then remove the coconut oil and filter it. All the terpenes should stay in the coconut oil.

Thanks for this thread Sue. I want to start dosing for health and I skimmed through this first time. Now I need to go back and really immerse myself.

 

[Dave Groomer]

Ok so this chart is the signaling cascade that links cannabinoid receptors to cell cycle and the classic apoptosis cascade(down bottom). Cell cycle is the way that a cell conducts itself through checkpoints. These checkpoints assure that the cell will not copy itself in the wrong sequence (splitting before copying the chromosomes for example. At each checkpoint the conditions in the cell are assessed and the cell either moves on to the next part of the cycle of is arrested at the checkpoint(for example until the chromosomes are copied). Irrevocable failure of the cell to complete a task turns on the apoptosis cascade down bottom (Bax/Bcl2). P53 is a protein that is instrumental in this process and defects in that protein lead to aggressive cancers. Cyclins control cell cycle checkpoints and when something goes awry caspases cleave the cyclins and send the cell down the apoptosis pathway.

In a chart like this any enhancing relationship is an arrow and any inhibiting relationship is a line with a perpendicular line at the end. Most of these inter protein signaling pathways are accomplished with the transfer of phosphorus the bodies signaling molecule. Proteins that phosphorylase other proteins are kinases. Proteins that remove phosphorus are phosphatases. MapK means Map kinase.

TRPV1 is a channel protein. It is involved in transporting something inside the cell (looks like hydrogen peroxide and calcium both of which are involved in apoptosis) . I am not familiar with it but that is the shape used to indicate a transporter.

Reading a diagram like this shows you all the checks and balances in place to prevent cancer. We must examine cancer for what it is at its most simplest.

Cancer is caused by any cell that for whatever reason forgets to stop growing and dividing.

That's simple statement is very powerful really. Any mistake in this pathway, any protein that is made from a mutated gene so it is not as effective, this is going to induce cancer at some point if it slips past our detection and elimination systems.

I am going to make some canna coconut oil and my idea is to decarboxylate while extracting in a sous vide apparatus. I love sous vide for cooking because it keeps all the aromas trapped in the bag. Basically for those who don't know, sous vide is cooking in a sealed plastic bag in a recirculating water bath of controlled temperature. I can put the herb in the bag and add the coconut oil, then remove all the air from the bag. Leave it in the sous vide cooker, then remove the coconut oil and filter it. All the terpenes should stay in the coconut oil.

Thanks for this thread Sue. I want to start dosing for health and I skimmed through this first time. Now I need to go back and really immerse myself.

Very well explained. I saw the chart yesterday and only had time to "study" it briefly. You saved me a whole lot of time!!! Reps!!

 

[SlowToke]

Duuuude! +reps!

Ok, with that important administrative stuff out of the way, Shiggity, can we dig just a tad deeper? So you're saying the diagram explains the normal process of cell apoptosis until something goes wrong. But when it does, where do the cannabinoids, both endo and phyto, come into play to correct it? Does the binding of THC to the receptors simply enhance this signaling process to correct the cascade process to again casuse cell death and inhibit proliferation?

Another interesting finding in the article is that THC and methanandamide can both increase of decrease cell proliferation, with the increase occurring at nanomolar concentrations. Can you explain what "nanomolar" specifically means? Can we assume it is a really, really small concentration? And when I start dosing with 1g of CCO daily I will then be out of the nanomolar concentration range?

Please immerse! Your knowledge is going to be a huge help with our research!

Thanks!

Ok so this chart is the signaling cascade that links cannabinoid receptors to cell cycle and the classic apoptosis cascade(down bottom). Cell cycle is the way that a cell conducts itself through checkpoints. These checkpoints assure that the cell will not copy itself in the wrong sequence (splitting before copying the chromosomes for example. At each checkpoint the conditions in the cell are assessed and the cell either moves on to the next part of the cycle of is arrested at the checkpoint(for example until the chromosomes are copied). Irrevocable failure of the cell to complete a task turns on the apoptosis cascade down bottom (Bax/Bcl2). P53 is a protein that is instrumental in this process and defects in that protein lead to aggressive cancers. Cyclins control cell cycle checkpoints and when something goes awry caspases cleave the cyclins and send the cell down the apoptosis pathway.

In a chart like this any enhancing relationship is an arrow and any inhibiting relationship is a line with a perpendicular line at the end. Most of these inter protein signaling pathways are accomplished with the transfer of phosphorus the bodies signaling molecule. Proteins that phosphorylase other proteins are kinases. Proteins that remove phosphorus are phosphatases. MapK means Map kinase.

TRPV1 is a channel protein. It is involved in transporting something inside the cell (looks like hydrogen peroxide and calcium both of which are involved in apoptosis) . I am not familiar with it but that is the shape used to indicate a transporter.

Reading a diagram like this shows you all the checks and balances in place to prevent cancer. We must examine cancer for what it is at its most simplest.

Cancer is caused by any cell that for whatever reason forgets to stop growing and dividing.

That's simple statement is very powerful really. Any mistake in this pathway, any protein that is made from a mutated gene so it is not as effective, this is going to induce cancer at some point if it slips past our detection and elimination systems.

I am going to make some canna coconut oil and my idea is to decarboxylate while extracting in a sous vide apparatus. I love sous vide for cooking because it keeps all the aromas trapped in the bag. Basically for those who don't know, sous vide is cooking in a sealed plastic bag in a recirculating water bath of controlled temperature. I can put the herb in the bag and add the coconut oil, then remove all the air from the bag. Leave it in the sous vide cooker, then remove the coconut oil and filter it. All the terpenes should stay in the coconut oil.

Thanks for this thread Sue. I want to start dosing for health and I skimmed through this first time. Now I need to go back and really immerse myself.

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks for this thread Sue. I want to start dosing for health and I skimmed through this first time. Now I need to go back and really immerse myself.

Shiggity....

I actually squealed with delight to find you here. One more brilliant brain full of curious wonder. Your voice and spirit are welcome indeed. This is a potentially intimidating mountain we're climbing. I'm on my way to get a hair trim (for the first time in my life I'm working on finding the cut that screams "SUSAN!" - be thrilled for me guys ) so I can't read that until later, but thank you for deciphering that. I got to it finally after midnight last night and it sent me to bed with my head a jumble of pieces looking for the proper order.

How sweet to wake up to your post.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Duuuude! +reps!

Ok, with that important administrative stuff out of the way, Shiggity, can we dig just a tad deeper? So you're saying the diagram explains the normal process of cell apoptosis until something goes wrong. But when it does, where do the cannabinoids, both endo and phyto, come into play to correct it? Does the binding of THC to the receptors simply enhance this signaling process to correct the cascade process to again casuse cell death and inhibit proliferation?

Another interesting finding in the article is that THC and methanandamide can both increase of decrease cell proliferation, with the increase occurring at nanomolar concentrations. Can you explain what "nanomolar" specifically means? Can we assume it is a really, really small concentration? And when I start dosing with 1g of CCO daily I will then be out of the nanomolar concentration range?

Please immerse! Your knowledge is going to be a huge help with our research!

Thanks!

So if the bottom cell cycle pathway has a deficiency of function, apoptosis can be activated through alternate pathways. This is showing how CB1 and CB2 can contribute to activating these pathways. It appears they upregulate ceramide production. Ceramide is a lipid involved in regulation of metabolism and with long term accumulation peaks can induce the apoptotic pathway. You see that caspase cleavage in this diagram leads us again to the classic apoptotic pathway but through the action of Pl3K and p38 Kinases instead of the cyclin/Cdk pathway in cell cycle. Its a redundant system to ensure that apoptosis will take place even when cell cycle fails if there are enough cannabinoids or terpenes flooding the receptors for an extended period of time. I am not well versed in this, just pulling from some articles online and papers like this one (chart is not from the paper).

https://www.bbm1.ucm.es/cannabis/archivos/archivos/publicaciones/Life_Sci05_77_1723_1731.pdf

 

[panacea]

Thank you panacea. That's a great write up. Do you have any objection to me reformatting your post to make it easier to read? Please don't hesitate to say no. It's an obsession I've thrust on many members over the time I've been here.

I found it frustrating to learn that the laser thermometers would be so poorly manufactured. Thank goodness I didn't purchase one. So my suspicion that decarb would be more controllable with dry material instead of oil turns out to be correct?

Reformat away Sweet's, I tend to get long winded . IMO yes! With the method I use(BBQ) I can get the temps within 1-2 degrees at a constant unlimited time( might want to reformat that also Sweet's Lol)No risk of burning or less likely, also no big temp fluctuations. As far as the Laser thermometer goes I will not say "They Suck" for everyone , But they do suck for me( I purchased a couple 200$ ones) and I found if you really monitor them and use a mercury thermometer for a cross reference you will see the inconsistencies. Each for their own I guess. P.S but I still give my oil the hot oil bath but just at a lower temp to be sure all my alcohol is evaporated and there is no more activity. As brother Motoco would say PEACE, LOVE, & PANCAKES!

 

[panacea]

While you are here Sweet's, I am sure I came across a thread where you explained a How To on bud washing . Will you be a sweetheart (No Pun Intended LOL) and direct me.

 

[kelticBlue]

This one?
Bud Washing

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Can you explain what "nanomolar" specifically means? Can we assume it is a really, really small concentration? And when I start dosing with 1g of CCO daily I will then be out of the nanomolar concentration range?

Thanks!

Not sure about the last question but nanomolar is a small concentration yes. Molarity is a concentration concept. One mole of anything is 6.02 x 10^23.

1 Molar is 6.02 x 10^23 molecules in 1 liter of liquid.
1 millimolar is 1000 times less than 1 molar. So it is 10^-3 moles (1 thousandth of a mole)
1 micromolar is 1000 times less than one millimolar. So it is 10^-6 moles (1 millionth of a mole)
1 nanomolar is 1000 times les than one micromolar. So it is 10^-9 moles (1 billionth of a mole)
1 picomolar is 1000 times less than one nanomolar. So it is 10^-12 moles (1 trillionth of a mole)


So for example NaCl has a formula wt. of 58.44g/mol (about 2 ounces)
1 millomole NaCl= 0.05844gm=58.4milligrams (mg)
1 micromole NaCl= 0.00005844gm
1 nanomole NaCl=0.00000005844gm

 

[SweetSue]

Just a reformatted post by panacea, done to make this valuable information easier to follow.

He says he's able to keep within 1-2 degrees of target consistently with this method.

I have tried different ways of decarbing. The method I use now I find is the absolute best way. For a Dry material decarb I use my BBQ( outdoors obviously) I bought at Walmart(198$ a four burner with a top warming rack which is important).I realize anyone with close neighbours may have an issue with this.

So I will put my dry material into the turkey bag and place this onto the top warm rack which has a temp gauge that feeds through the top of the bbq lid (came factory like this). I also drilled a hole through the top of my bbq lid and inserted a mercury thermometer for cross reference since it is the most accurate (have had to many inconsistencies with the laser thermos even with the expensive ones this is why I went from decarbing the oil back to decarbing the dry material). Depending on the ambient temperature I will usually need only one burner on at a very low temperature with the lid closed, I will then use a wooden wedge to slide under my lid to vent a little if it gets to hot.

As I stated you may have to fiddle with the temp gauge a bit and the wedge to get it to the proper temp this is why I would get this figured out before I placed my material into the bbq. I can achieve a constant and accurate temp of my desire with this method.I just find conventional ovens are based on average temperature and not a constant temp, one minute it is 250 the next 300 the next 200 etc...I just find it a poor way to decarb Imo. I may made this seem complicated but it is actually very simple and precise.

 

[SweetSue]

And while I'm over there pulling things out of my notebook, this should be here for reference. At some point I may rework this, but I think he pretty much nailed it. Testing needs to become commonplace.

I could have edited this down a bit, but I adore the humor. We all need to laugh more. Well, I may be laughing enough.

How do I calculate a dose?

To answer some PM's & to the more cerebral types:
There's a big difference in your "target dose" & your actual "therapeutic dose".

Some "advanced oiling"-

So, if you know the THC % of your oil, the calcs are easy. I realize that most ppl don't have their oil tested, but it's getting cheaper & easier everyday. I predict that testing will be even more commonplace soon.

Anyway, say your cco has tested as 88.6%.
You've decided by research or advise that you want a target dose of say 300mg/day. Maybe a more beginner's dose. And, to cover the illness, you dose 5x a day.

Your dosage/day in grams would be 300/88.6= 0.34g.
Your dosage/dose would then be 0.34/5 (the 5 comes from # times a day you dose) = 0.068g.

So, your actual therapeutic dose would be 68mg. (from the 0.068 above, moving the decimal place & rounding off). So, 0.068 to 68 to 70 (rounding off to simplify measuring).
So, your therapeutic dose is 70mg, 5x a day.

But, Cajun told ya to use 80% in suppositories & 20%, the rest, tacking & orally.

Easy enough.

80% of 70mg= 56mg, 55mg rounded off, for suppositories.
20% of 70mg= 14mg, 15mg after rounding off.

Finally, you would use 55mg, 5x a day in suppositories.
15mg, 5x a day for tacking & oral ingestion.

You notice that our theradose of 70mg, 5x a day is 50mg larger than our target dose of 300mg?

That is due to the THC content of 88.6%.

Crap, got a headache now...

Well, that's it for the Magnet Program & Advanced Oiling tonight. Lol.
Get a good night's sleep.