SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[InTheShed]

repeats the heating/cooling cycle two more times

I've wondered about that. I remember reading instructions that called for a few heating/cooling cycles for infusions when I started, so that's what I did. Now I do it all in one fell swoop. I'm wondering if I should go back to the on/off/on cycling again.

Do you or Brix know the science behind that decision?

 

[SweetSue]

I've wondered about that. I remember reading instructions that called for a few heating/cooling cycles for infusions when I started, so that's what I did. Now I do it all in one fell swoop. I'm wondering if I should go back to the on/off/on cycling again.

Do you or Brix know the science behind that decision?

His science is based strictly on client preference, and there’s a stated one for his 3-run oil.

We keep coming across how repeat process results in increased potency.

 

[InTheShed]

Is 8 hours on/4 hours off/8 hours on is better than 16 hours on?

 

[BobbyZ]

Ok I just roughed her up again. That’s twice. I might just let her go now. You can see how the roughed up bud is putting out leafy growth... I can’t say I see an improvement in tris yet.
Roughed:

Untouched:

 

[JustMeds]

That is really interesting. I am going to store that away. Someday I may come up with a use for it. You have me wondering what it would do to plants in veg.

 

[Dave Groomer]

Ok I just roughed her up again. That’s twice. I might just let her go now. You can see how the roughed up bud is putting out leafy growth... I can’t say I see an improvement in tris yet.
Roughed:

Untouched:

I have been giving my Train Wreck (4 weeks into flower) "hugs" every few days. This one is always a heavy trich producer anyway so we will see if this helps.

 

[Oldbear]

Decarb Myths: some very interesting observations in the text here. Worth a read....

ardentcannabis.com/decarboxylation-myths

 

[JustMeds]

So has that changed how you do things Oldbear?

 

[medmanmike]

You might be better off asking your questions now LivRx. A lot has changed since we started this adventure. This thread was a brainstorming effort and much of what we learn gets developed into other medical threads.

Sue, your "You might be better off asking your questions now....." comment prompted me to well, ask! I'm a few weeks behind in my reading and I've searched for this but cannot find an answer - my apologies if I've missed this.

I know that when we decarb in the oven we don't get a 100% conversion. I've seen numbers from 50-85% or so.
I know that when making infused oil we use 85% for a conversion rate.

Most if not all of the "formulas/spreadsheets" flying around for infused oil making uses the 85% conversion rate. But, I have not seen one that takes into consideration the decarb conversion % as part of the infusion. Unless, of course it is assumed that one would take this into account when using the SS.

Have I just missed/not understanding this, or is this a missing piece of the equation? For example: 1g of bud at 10% THC, when decrarbed results in an actual % of THC of approx. 7.5% - assuming a decarb conversion rate of 75%.

If we then take that sample, which is now at 7.5% THC and infused it, with the infusion conversation rate of 85%, we then end up with a sample that's at 6.38% THC. That's a far cry from the original 10% - almost a 40% reduction. If I'm correct, the % of TCH/CBD in our dosages is probably a lot less than we think.
Or, have I been smoking to much of that wacky weed? LOL! Pass it this way - please!

 

[InTheShed]

Decarb Myths: some very interesting observations in the text here. Worth a read....
ardentcannabis.com/decarboxylation-myths

Reads like marketing hype to me Oldbear. Did you get that feeling?

It's interesting to read the way they skew the data and use straw man arguments to sell their product. For example, no one says that curing is decarbing except they are so they can disprove it. They say there's no difference in decarbing fresh and dried bud except "in the right conditions" and "in a controlled setting." Whose controlled setting? Theirs! They say you can't decarb in an oven at 220º for 40 minutes. How about 240º for 60 minutes? They don't say. Here's another one: "Fact: Fats and alcohol aren’t needed [empasis theirs] in order to decarb or administer cannabis, but they can be useful to pair with activated cannabis to aid in digestion and absorption." Another straw man. No one says infusing cannabis with alcohol or fats decarbs them, and no one says you have to use fats to administer cannabis. It's just better that way! Oy.

 

[Oldbear]

So has that changed how you do things Oldbear?

Not yet. I dont know what to make of it actually. The authors have challenged a lot of the things that I took as good practices. Without multi-step lab test results, I have no way to know.

What is a pattern is that this company, who want to sell a decarb machine, point to lots of short comings that can best be resolved with their little machine. Hmmmmmm

In my case I double extract using the oil then I use all the leftovers. So I get 100% no matter what, particularly because I get good results from cannabinoids in their acid form.

@medmanmike you are correct. The spreadsheet I posted assumed 80% or 85% efficiency for both decarb and infusion. It is a changeable variable in the sheet however.

 

[Oldbear]

Reads like marketing hype to me Oldbear. Did you get that feeling?

It's interesting to read the way they skew the data and use straw man arguments to sell their product. For example, no one says that curing is decarbing except they are so they can disprove it. They say there's no difference in decarbing fresh and dried bud except "in the right conditions" and "in a controlled setting." Whose controlled setting? Theirs! They say you can't decarb in an oven at 220º for 40 minutes. How about 240º for 60 minutes? They don't say. Here's another one: "Fact: Fats and alcohol aren’t needed [empasis theirs] in order to decarb or administer cannabis, but they can be useful to pair with activated cannabis to aid in digestion and absorption." Another straw man. No one says infusing cannabis with alcohol or fats decarbs them, and no one says you have to use fats to administer cannabis. It's just better that way! Oy.

I agree. I think I'll soldier on experimenting with different methods more for fun than anything.

 

[Dave Groomer]

I agree. I think I'll soldier on experimenting with different methods more for fun than anything.

Also, I am fairly certain after cooking with my GE Profile Convection stove, that if I set my oven temp to 235, it is at 235. Toaster oven, I would not trust as much.

 

[InTheShed]

I agree. I think I'll soldier on experimenting with different methods more for fun than anything.

That's good! We'd be lost without one of out main resident guinea pig .

 

[Oldbear]

Oink oink (or whatever sound guinea pigs make) lol

 

[medmanmike]

Not yet. I dont know what to make of it actually. The authors have challenged a lot of the things that I took as good practices. Without multi-step lab test results, I have no way to know.

What is a pattern is that this company, who want to sell a decarb machine, point to lots of short comings that can best be resolved with their little machine. Hmmmmmm

In my case I double extract using the oil then I use all the leftovers. So I get 100% no matter what, particularly because I get good results from cannabinoids in their acid form.

@medmanmike you are correct. The spreadsheet I posted assumed 80% or 85% efficiency for both decarb and infusion. It is a changeable variable in the sheet however.

Oldbear, would you mind pointing me to your SS? Not sure I have yours. Thanks.

 

[dynamo1]

Oink oink (or whatever sound guinea pigs make) lol

That sound would be wheep, wheep

 

[medmanmike]

Curious....my recollection of the Italian study I'm still chasing down was that they compared EVOO as a cannabinoid carrier against other oils, and found olive to be the superior carrier. Heat would have been a factor, I'm sure. My assumption since then was that this was why medicinal oils dispensed professionally trended towards olive. Maybe I shouldn't have assumed. Lol!

So if saturation levels aren't driving the choice for olive oil, what is? I'm going to California next week for a brief visit. I'll see if I can get some answers on this while I'm there.

I don't dispute at all that coconut oil makes a more "potent" product, if euphoric response is what we're basing that potency on. Olive oil's ability to get the cannabinoids absorbed into the lymphatic syatem makes olive the more "potent" carrier oil IMO.

Sue, is this the "Italian" study you were referencing? International Association for Cannabis as Medicine

 

[SweetSue]

Reads like marketing hype to me Oldbear. Did you get that feeling?

It's interesting to read the way they skew the data and use straw man arguments to sell their product. For example, no one says that curing is decarbing except they are so they can disprove it. They say there's no difference in decarbing fresh and dried bud except "in the right conditions" and "in a controlled setting." Whose controlled setting? Theirs! They say you can't decarb in an oven at 220º for 40 minutes. How about 240º for 60 minutes? They don't say. Here's another one: "Fact: Fats and alcohol aren’t needed [empasis theirs] in order to decarb or administer cannabis, but they can be useful to pair with activated cannabis to aid in digestion and absorption." Another straw man. No one says infusing cannabis with alcohol or fats decarbs them, and no one says you have to use fats to administer cannabis. It's just better that way! Oy.

I don't think their average reader has our background. Lol! Thanks for that Oldbear and Shed.

Shed, a while back you asked me how the body produces cannabinoids. I've been mulling it over for a while and I think I'm ready to toss it out there.

The way I think it works:

I'm coming at this from a gut instinct as much as science. I'll admit that up front, because the reality is I'll see what I'm looking for. I do my best to pay attention to what the science is trying to show us, keeping in mind that so much of the science is slanted to show the perceived or fabricated evils of THC and/or strapped by inadequate supply of research material that matched what we all consume.

There are some things we know about endocannabinoids.

* When a cell is stressed the chemical environment of that cell is effected. The ECS responds by pulling lipid molecules from the cell membrane and combining them with other molecules to create a particular endocannabinoid.

Omega 3s are the molecules the ECS is pulling from the membrane, the building blocks of endocannabinoids.

The newly-created cannabinoid activates a receptor on the cell membrane. The resulting chemical cascade inside the cell changes the cellular environment, and if all works as planned, the cell goes back to its homeostatic state. Balance is restored.

On demand, on site, instantly produced, utilized, and then disassembled by the enzymes in preparation for removal by the clean-up crew. In less time than it took to blink.

Continuing with the exploration we find:

* The ECS creates receptors in the CNS that migrate to peripheral cells. As need arises for more receptors, the ECS responds by creating them and shipping them out. This is particularly useful in pain modulation, which is where I learned about it.

Switching to instinct:

I think it has something to do with vibration. Purely speculation on my part, but it makes sense to me. A healthy cell vibrates a particular tone, and a community of cells in homeostasis maintain a particular tonal range.

The activity of receptor activation is a change of vibration, which causes a series of cellular modifications across a broad spectrum.

So my theory is that the cell out of vibration sets off an alert that triggers the creation of the endocannabinoid that'll signal the modification that resets the cellular vibration back to an acceptable range. It seems obvious to me that an increase in stress, coupled with a degradation of nutritional intake creates a cellular atmosphere challenging to a healing force that appears to respond more positively to joyfulness.

Science shows us that the cells know how to heal. My simple message: You are evolved to spontaneously heal. Joy may be your greatest healing tool.

@medmanmike, the infusion percentage isn’t a decarboxylation rate, it’s an extraction efficiency rate. Different values. Most decarb before infusion, and that decarb percentage would carry through. The extraction efficiency ratebtells you how many of those available cannabinoids you’ll recover.

 

[SweetSue]

Sue, is this the "Italian" study you were referencing? International Association for Cannabis as Medicine

That’s not the one I was remembering, but it’s a good find Mike. The one I recall was done by the Italian government, to promote the use of olive oil as an extraction solvent. If I remember correctly it was done by a region known for their olive oil.