SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[Chris Scorpio]

You choose the strains that fit the terpene and cannabinoid profiles needed to meet the patient needs. Combining strains to make oil is the way to create an individualized oil with a more exotic profile.

How would you know the ratios to mix??

I guess just trial and error

 

[KingstonRabbi]

And, this is an instance where we're different, Sue. Math excites you but it makes me want to run for the hills!



I think I have math dyslexia. What you and Kingston just posted looks like gobbly-gook to me.

Sorry, I should have put a large warning at the top of my post!

 

[SweetSue]

How would you know the ratios to mix??

I guess just trial and error

You got it Scorpio. We come here and toss ideas around and let others help us work through that challenge. It becomes a dance of sorts. You can also add essential oils to enhance terpene expressions. Medical alchemy.

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Gunna get some kilamanjaro next time I'm out....
All in the name of science of course....

 

[Chew]

Sue,
I calculated a maximum cannabinoid content of 67 mg/ml, assuming cannabinoids are 20% of dry weight for buds.

400 gr wet = 100 gr dry
100 gr x 20% = 20 gr = 20,000 mg
20,000 mg / 300 ml = 67 mg/ml, or 50 mg/ml using 15% bud, which is probably more realistic.

Here's where it gets complicated.
100 gr dry yields about 14 gr CCO, of which about 10 gr is cannabinoids (based on lab test reports on commercial CCO)
1st conclusion: I'm leaving behind more cannabinoids than I thought, or losing some in the process of making CCO.
2nd conclusion: Unless fresh harvest extraction is more efficient we should cut above calculations in half, so finished fresh harvest oil would be about 25 mg/ml. (curious how you came up with 20 mg.)

There's a lot of assumptions in those calculations making them not very reliable without lab tests.
But clearly the increased terpenes are making one hell of a difference in the high. Whether or not that translates into more effective medicine is still the big question.

25 mg is good for my maintenance doses. I'm still at least 2 weeks out, but I can't wait to try making my own.

You have to start the calculations by factoring in the extraction efficiency. For infused oils the standard is 85% efficiency. Your calculations would be

20% x 85% = 0.17 x 100 gr = 17 gr x 1000 = 17,000 mg / 300 ml = 56.7 mg/ml


If I start with 400 gr of wet of a strain with 10% THC and calculate that as 100 gr dry, using 500 ml of oil it becomes

10% x 85% = .085x 100 gr = 8.5 gr x 1000 = 8500 mg /500 ml = 17 mg/ml.

That's 17 mg of THC in each of these capsules I'm taking - the capsules that get me so euphoric that I can't take more than two a day, spaced out so they don't overlap much. Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the hell out of the euphoria, and I'm getting a lot done, but still...... 17 mg of THC can do this when you include the entire entourage?

At the end of the day my body is ready for sleep.

At 300 ml of oil it becomes 8500 mg / 300 ml = 28.3 mg/ml.

Ok, I don't know about the rest of you, but I just got unbelievably excited.

Can someone please help me understand these calculations? I can't understand how you work out the dose strength by starting at what % THC is in the strain, or am i misunderstanding this completely?

The way i see it, you have no idea what the oil yield is as its in the pot already mixed with Olive Oil. When I make CCO, i've had strains yield 2 grams per Oz, whilst other 3-4 ? Obviously, the % of THC has an effect on the strength of the high, but to know the actual CO dose per cap, you need to know how much oil was in the pot to start with?

Half a bottle of vodka has the same potency as a full bottle per 1ml, there's just less of it

I'm dreading the replies here! lol

Be gentle

 

[SweetSue]

Can someone please help me understand these calculations? I can't understand how you work out the dose strength by starting at what % THC is in the strain, or am i misunderstanding this completely?

The way i see it, you have no idea what the oil yield is as its in the pot already mixed with Olive Oil. When I make CCO, i've had strains yield 2 grams per Oz, whilst other 3-4 ? Obviously, the % of THC has an effect on the strength of the high, but to know the actual CO dose per cap, you need to know how much oil was in the pot to start with?

Half a bottle of vodka has the same potency as a full bottle per 1ml, there's just less of it

I'm dreading the replies here! lol

Be gentle

I'll be gentle Chew.

This isn't about CCO, and trying to compare the yields is what's confusing you. An infused extraction is only expected to only pull 85% of the cannabinoids. You lose the rest in the plant material you toss out. When you infuse your intent is to bond the cannabinoids in as homogenous a means as possible. That's one of the reasons we use lecithin. It emulsifies the material, sectioning off the individual components in a more uniform dispersion, so you anticipate that the oil has relative consistency in cannabinoid strength, one ml to the next.

In truth, without lab testing you have no idea how much oil actually got pulled from the plant and incorporated into the olive oil. Unfortunately, this is what we have to live with until we have testing available. This makes that tCheck something we would be smart to look into. But we have formulas, like this one, worked out by people who did have lab testing and found a certain poetic consistency to the extractions they monitored. We use them in lieu of lab testing to give us a general idea of how potent the infusion was, and we're thankful that it's cannabis we work with because no one is going to get hurt while we pin down an effective regimen.

Was that gentle enough, my friend? Keep asking until it makes sense to you. The understanding is important, especially when you find yourself needing to explain it to others. Want to know my trick? I look at these questions, calm my mind, and anticipate cosmic inspiration to help me recall all this information we keep cramming into our beautiful brains. So far the universe has been squarely in my corner. I love the way you keep me on my toes Chew.

 

[Chew]

That was pretty gentle Sue, thank you, however, I still cannot get this straight in my head...

Ok, forget infused oil and CCO. We are extracting the resin glands from the plant, right? 20% is 20% no matter if it's 1 gram or 20 grams, but how can you arrive at mg per dose when we don't know how much resin was produced by the plant?

Surly, if strain A gives more resin than strain B, then the cannabinoid load in that 300ml of carrier has to be different ? Which surly means a size 00 cap from strain A would have a larger dose that strain B???

Lol! Make me understand!!

 

[Chris Scorpio]

Well I think I have recovered from my 1st day of edible testing

So on Sunday I purchased some Grand Daddy Purple to get me by till my Harvests, shoulda got more....lol.. its a great Indica...

Made Brownies Sunday, Then I did some Gummies on Monday.
Gummies taste epic but think they will be on the lighter side of potency, Ill test those today

So yesterday morning I decided to try some of the Coconut Infused oil I made with the GDP on Sunday. This was my 1st time eating any oil's directly. I scraped maybe 1/4t into my coffee.. then 2 cups later a bit more. I think about 30-40min later, as I was driving to the Grocery Store it started to hit me. My Vision was the 1st I noticed it, reflections off my sun glasses. When I made it back home I could feel a pretty nice buzz working. Good motivation for an hour or so, did my gummies, and then relaxed.
Big mistake was taking it in my coffee..lol.... to early... I was toast till about Noon or so. I wanted to see how it was, and I was happy with the results.
I did try about 6 gummies before bed, and I slept great last night... so more testing today

As I had asked Sue yesterday eve, my next plan is to get some Kilimanjaro, maybe today, and make some Oil with a Pure Sativa and see how it makes me feel. Smoking Kilimanjaro is a very energetic High, also comes with some anxiety. But smoking is an instant high, I think the oil may dissipate the anxiety, and hopefully, keep the energy in the buzz.

Question for the Experts... yes you Sue
So how does CBD work in Oils. I know the THC's help for immediate pain, but how does CBD effect you in Oils, as in Coconut Oils not CCO's. Im not ready for CCO's yet, when I have my harvests ill start testing that also.

Ok 2 dispensaries are on my schedule today, oooo and my Easy Butter Machine lands today... and its Water Day for the Big Girls... Making some epic Ribs...Mow the Lawn... test the Pool Temp, it was too cold yesterday so wish me luck

 

[KingstonRabbi]

That was pretty gentle Sue, thank you, however, I still cannot get this straight in my head...

Ok, forget infused oil and CCO. We are extracting the resin glands from the plant, right? 20% is 20% no matter if it's 1 gram or 20 grams, but how can you arrive at mg per dose when we don't know how much resin was produced by the plant?

Surly, if strain A gives more resin than strain B, then the cannabinoid load in that 300ml of carrier has to be different ? Which surly means a size 00 cap from strain A would have a larger dose that strain B???

Lol! Make me understand!!

The short answer is we guess a lot. Based on prior experience, but still a bunch of guesses tied together. And don't call me Surly.

Slightly longer answer is I have some idea of how much THC is in the plant material, either because I vaped it or it's a clone I've grown before. No math so far, just an educated guess.

The only reason I mentioned CCO was to estimate the efficiency of extraction. Sue knows it's about 85% from others who have actually done tests. Resin doesn't always equate with THC content of herb. Sometimes but not consistently, so I'm sorry for thinking out loud in my post above.

So with an educated guess on potency of herb and a tested efficiency of extraction the math is relatively simply, but just to be safe
WARNING! MATH AHEAD! Skip to bottom for easy conversions.

If I put 100 grams of dry herb (or wet equivalent) that I guess is 10% THC:
100 g x 10% =10 grams THC total.

At 85% extraction:
10 g x 85% = 8.5 grams infused in the oil.

Converted to mg:
8.5 x 1000 = 8500 mg

Last step, I used 400 ml of olive oil (or rather I will in 2 weeks):
8500 mg / 400 ml = 21.25 mg/ml.
Because I started with a guess I'll round that off to 20 mg/ml.

Now it gets really simple, because if you keep the proportions of herb to oil the same you can go straight from potency of herb to potency of oil as follows:
5% => 10 mg/ml
10% => 20 mg/ml
15% => 30 mg/ml
20% => 40 mg/ml

I hope that was mostly painless. I know I had fun.

 

[SweetSue]

That was pretty gentle Sue, thank you, however, I still cannot get this straight in my head...

Ok, forget infused oil and CCO. We are extracting the resin glands from the plant, right? 20% is 20% no matter if it's 1 gram or 20 grams, but how can you arrive at mg per dose when we don't know how much resin was produced by the plant?

Surly, if strain A gives more resin than strain B, then the cannabinoid load in that 300ml of carrier has to be different ? Which surly means a size 00 cap from strain A would have a larger dose that strain B???

Lol! Make me understand!!

The only honest answer is that we're guessing without testing to back us up. In the end it comes down to what works for the patient, but without lab testing you have no way to know what's actually in there.

The percentages of cannabinoids is based on what the breeder determined you'd get if you had a gram of bud. This is our best guess at the amount of oil this plant will generate. But again, without labs we're guessing.

 

[SweetSue]

The short answer is we guess a lot. Based on prior experience, but still a bunch of guesses tied together. And don't call me Surly.

Slightly longer answer is I have some idea of how much THC is in the plant material, either because I vaped it or it's a clone I've grown before. No math so far, just an educated guess.

The only reason I mentioned CCO was to estimate the efficiency of extraction. Sue knows it's about 85% from others who have actually done tests. Resin doesn't always equate with THC content of herb. Sometimes but not consistently, so I'm sorry for thinking out loud in my post above.

So with an educated guess on potency of herb and a tested efficiency of extraction the math is relatively simply, but just to be safe
WARNING! MATH AHEAD! Skip to bottom for easy conversions.

If I put 100 grams of dry herb (or wet equivalent) that I guess is 10% THC:
100 g x 10% =10 grams THC total.

At 85% extraction:
10 g x 85% = 8.5 grams infused in the oil.

Converted to mg:
8.5 x 1000 = 8500 mg

Last step, I used 400 ml of olive oil (or rather I will in 2 weeks):
8500 mg / 400 ml = 21.25 mg/ml.
Because I started with a guess I'll round that off to 20 mg/ml.

Now it gets really simple, because if you keep the proportions of herb to oil the same you can go straight from potency of herb to potency of oil as follows:
5% => 10 mg/ml
10% => 20 mg/ml
15% => 30 mg/ml
20% => 40 mg/ml

I hope that was mostly painless. I know I had fun.

I know I had fun with it.

 

[Chew]

The short answer is we guess a lot. Based on prior experience, but still a bunch of guesses tied together. And don't call me Surly.

Slightly longer answer is I have some idea of how much THC is in the plant material, either because I vaped it or it's a clone I've grown before. No math so far, just an educated guess.

The only reason I mentioned CCO was to estimate the efficiency of extraction. Sue knows it's about 85% from others who have actually done tests. Resin doesn't always equate with THC content of herb. Sometimes but not consistently, so I'm sorry for thinking out loud in my post above.

So with an educated guess on potency of herb and a tested efficiency of extraction the math is relatively simply, but just to be safe
WARNING! MATH AHEAD! Skip to bottom for easy conversions.

If I put 100 grams of dry herb (or wet equivalent) that I guess is 10% THC:
100 g x 10% =10 grams THC total.

At 85% extraction:
10 g x 85% = 8.5 grams infused in the oil.

Converted to mg:
8.5 x 1000 = 8500 mg

Last step, I used 400 ml of olive oil (or rather I will in 2 weeks):
8500 mg / 400 ml = 21.25 mg/ml.
Because I started with a guess I'll round that off to 20 mg/ml.

Now it gets really simple, because if you keep the proportions of herb to oil the same you can go straight from potency of herb to potency of oil as follows:
5% => 10 mg/ml
10% => 20 mg/ml
15% => 30 mg/ml
20% => 40 mg/ml

I hope that was mostly painless. I know I had fun.

The only honest answer is that we're guessing without testing to back us up. In the end it comes down to what works for the patient, but without lab testing you have no way to know what's actually in there.

The percentages of cannabinoids is based on what the breeder determined you'd get if you had a gram of bud. This is our best guess at the amount of oil this plant will generate. But again, without labs we're guessing.

Ok, thanks for this. I like to get things right in my head. So it's basically guide and getting to know your strains... I worry about my doses see, too much THC is most unpleasant, get it right and I love the ride

On a different note, I should start the ND Sap run in a few days. I'm just struggling to completely dry the flowers. I should get some silica gell hopefully tomorrow to help out
Many thanks for your patience! Especially Sue, I dread to think what your inbox looks like

 

[SweetSue]

Question for the Experts... yes you Sue
So how does CBD work in Oils. I know the THC's help for immediate pain, but how does CBD effect you in Oils, as in Coconut Oils not CCO's. Im not ready for CCO's yet, when I have my harvests ill start testing that also.

Ok 2 dispensaries are on my schedule today, oooo and my Easy Butter Machine lands today... and its Water Day for the Big Girls... Making some epic Ribs...Mow the Lawn... test the Pool Temp, it was too cold yesterday so wish me luck

The indicas kick as oils Scorpio. Glad you survived.

With inflammation CBD works at the cellular level to mitigate the damage done, like clearing away plaque that collects in the heart and the brain, but it also works to reduce the start of inflammation. You can help that process along by taking steps to create a healthier gut flora community, since inflammation that isn't caused by injury is likely spreading directly from the gut.

But CBD also has a profound effect on the mental/emotional tone of the system, and this balancing act effects the efficiency of all the rest of your systems. CBD goes about multitasking through the entire system, making incremental changes to lead the body back to homeostasis. You typically don't notice the extent of the therapy and the benefits you're gaining until you stop taking the meds.

 

[SweetSue]

From an old post by the Calofornia branch of NORML:

"Additional, preclinical studies suggest that CBD may have therapeutic benefits in the treatment of various conditions, including chronic pain, anxiety, nausea, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, diabetes, PTSD, alcoholism, strokes and cardiovascular disease, cancer, and other ailments.

CBD has been shown to suppress colon cancer tumors in mice and to kill breast cancer cells in lab studies by Dr. Sean McAllister at the California Pacific Medical Center. However, cancer specialists caution that the efficacy of CBD for cancer remains to be demonstrated in actual human studies.

CBD also has anti-inflammatory, neuro-protective, and anti-oxidant properties. Anti-oxidants are thought to fight degenerative diseases and aging. CBD has also been shown to stimulate bone fracture healing in laboratory animals."

CBD potentiates THC and extends the therapeutic window - more bang for the expensive buck.

 

[SweetSue]

Ok, thanks for this. I like to get things right in my head. So it's basically guide and getting to know your strains... I worry about my doses see, too much THC is most unpleasant, get it right and I love the ride

On a different note, I should start the ND Sap run in a few days. I'm just struggling to completely dry the flowers. I should get some silica gell hopefully tomorrow to help out
Many thanks for your patience! Especially Sue, I dread to think what your inbox looks like

I'll be honest and say that nothing pleases me more than finding a busy inbox. I love a curious nature, don't you?

 

[Chris Scorpio]

From an old post by the Calofornia branch of NORML:

"Additional, preclinical studies suggest that CBD may have therapeutic benefits in the treatment of various conditions, including chronic pain, anxiety, nausea, rheumatoid arthritis, schizophrenia, diabetes, PTSD, alcoholism, strokes and cardiovascular disease, cancer, and other ailments.

CBD has been shown to suppress colon cancer tumors in mice and to kill breast cancer cells in lab studies by Dr. Sean McAllister at the California Pacific Medical Center. However, cancer specialists caution that the efficacy of CBD for cancer remains to be demonstrated in actual human studies.

CBD also has anti-inflammatory, neuro-protective, and anti-oxidant properties. Anti-oxidants are thought to fight degenerative diseases and aging. CBD has also been shown to stimulate bone fracture healing in laboratory animals."

CBD potentiates THC and extends the therapeutic window - more bang for the expensive buck.

Ok lets dive in deeper.. Shall we.. again.. for Scientific purposes Only

So the Kilimanjaro, as noted from local Dispencary
18.7% THC, 19.2% Total Cannabinoids. Sativa. African Land Race Sativa Strain
My ACDC strain from the Local Dispensary
12/1 CBD/THC Ratio

If I was to Take 4gr of Kilimanjaro (I can easily spell it now) and 2gr of ACDC in a 4oz mix of Coconut Oil

Would this be a good mix of THC vs CBD for a Coconut Oil Infusion????


Also....Bonus Question...... do Essential Oils work in Edibles???

 

[KingstonRabbi]

Ok lets dive in deeper.. Shall we.. again.. for Scientific purposes Only

So the Kilimanjaro, as noted from local Dispencary
18.7% THC, 19.2% Total Cannabinoids. Sativa. African Land Race Sativa Strain
My ACDC strain from the Local Dispensary
12/1 CBD/THC Ratio

If I was to Take 4gr of Kilimanjaro (I can easily spell it now) and 2gr of ACDC in a 4oz mix of Coconut Oil

Would this be a good mix of THC vs CBD for a Coconut Oil Infusion????


Also....Bonus Question...... do Essential Oils work in Edibles???

With that blend the herb will be 13% THC:4% CBD, total 17%.

Your herb/oil ratio is different so we have to do this the long way.
17% x 6 g x 85% x 1000 mg/g = 870 mg cannabinoids in 118 ml oil.

That divides out to 5.5 mg THC:1.9 mg CBD, total cannabinoids 7.4 mg/ml with 3:1 ratio.

Sue will have to cover edibles and essential oils.

 

[HashGirl]

Congrats on successfully making and taking edibles.

Would you be willing to share your gummy recipe? That's one that I want to try.

Well I think I have recovered from my 1st day of edible testing

So on Sunday I purchased some Grand Daddy Purple to get me by till my Harvests, shoulda got more....lol.. its a great Indica...

Made Brownies Sunday, Then I did some Gummies on Monday.
Gummies taste epic but think they will be on the lighter side of potency, Ill test those today

So yesterday morning I decided to try some of the Coconut Infused oil I made with the GDP on Sunday. This was my 1st time eating any oil's directly. I scraped maybe 1/4t into my coffee.. then 2 cups later a bit more. I think about 30-40min later, as I was driving to the Grocery Store it started to hit me. My Vision was the 1st I noticed it, reflections off my sun glasses. When I made it back home I could feel a pretty nice buzz working. Good motivation for an hour or so, did my gummies, and then relaxed.
Big mistake was taking it in my coffee..lol.... to early... I was toast till about Noon or so. I wanted to see how it was, and I was happy with the results.
I did try about 6 gummies before bed, and I slept great last night... so more testing today

As I had asked Sue yesterday eve, my next plan is to get some Kilimanjaro, maybe today, and make some Oil with a Pure Sativa and see how it makes me feel. Smoking Kilimanjaro is a very energetic High, also comes with some anxiety. But smoking is an instant high, I think the oil may dissipate the anxiety, and hopefully, keep the energy in the buzz.

Question for the Experts... yes you Sue
So how does CBD work in Oils. I know the THC's help for immediate pain, but how does CBD effect you in Oils, as in Coconut Oils not CCO's. Im not ready for CCO's yet, when I have my harvests ill start testing that also.

Ok 2 dispensaries are on my schedule today, oooo and my Easy Butter Machine lands today... and its Water Day for the Big Girls... Making some epic Ribs...Mow the Lawn... test the Pool Temp, it was too cold yesterday so wish me luck

 

[HashGirl]

for the MATH WARNING, KR and for trying to make it simple to understand. I have blogged your post and may have to refer to it sometime.

The short answer is we guess a lot. Based on prior experience, but still a bunch of guesses tied together. And don't call me Surly.

Slightly longer answer is I have some idea of how much THC is in the plant material, either because I vaped it or it's a clone I've grown before. No math so far, just an educated guess.

The only reason I mentioned CCO was to estimate the efficiency of extraction. Sue knows it's about 85% from others who have actually done tests. Resin doesn't always equate with THC content of herb. Sometimes but not consistently, so I'm sorry for thinking out loud in my post above.

So with an educated guess on potency of herb and a tested efficiency of extraction the math is relatively simply, but just to be safe
WARNING! MATH AHEAD! Skip to bottom for easy conversions.

If I put 100 grams of dry herb (or wet equivalent) that I guess is 10% THC:
100 g x 10% =10 grams THC total.

At 85% extraction:
10 g x 85% = 8.5 grams infused in the oil.

Converted to mg:
8.5 x 1000 = 8500 mg

Last step, I used 400 ml of olive oil (or rather I will in 2 weeks):
8500 mg / 400 ml = 21.25 mg/ml.
Because I started with a guess I'll round that off to 20 mg/ml.

Now it gets really simple, because if you keep the proportions of herb to oil the same you can go straight from potency of herb to potency of oil as follows:
5% => 10 mg/ml
10% => 20 mg/ml
15% => 30 mg/ml
20% => 40 mg/ml

I hope that was mostly painless. I know I had fun.

 

[SweetSue]

I'm finishing up the fresh oil run of the DDA, reclaiming the last of the oil from the plant material.

I took PsyCro's advice and tossed the bundle into boiling water, and now I'm boiling off the last of that water. Next run I hope to have a pressure cooker, although that may have to wait for the next harvest. My CBD Critical Cure won't wait much longer than Thursday or Friday. I have a question though. Maybe one of you can help me understand something.

Here's his instructions on using the pressure cooker, an alliance I have no experience with.


Filled it up a quarter way with water, threw in the grass, used the immersion blender to grind it all up. Put the olive oil in, brought it to a boil and blended it all some more. Closed it up, and left it for just under 2 hours..

My question is, what happens to the water he adds to the cooker before anything else? How does this water, and the water in the plant itself, get vented from the cooker?

Also, I have this bowl of water once I removed all the oil from the surface. Can anyone think of a use for this liquid?