I speak on behalf of your chickens.
Stunger's Organic Balcony: Growing Daughters Of Mulanje: Watering Via Root Aeration Chambers
- Thread starter Stunger
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- #102
Update -Evaluating the appearance of immature gender structures to identify sex in plants grown from regular seeds
Part 1 of 5 - Introduction (due to the number of photos this update will be 5 posts in total)
Greetings 420 enthusiasts! For the past few years, I have grown both feminised and regular seeds. For each regular grow, I have looked very closely to try and identify what the sex of the plant will be from the observation of the early forming gender structures. From these observations I feel I can make a good attempt to identify the gender of the plants. Hopefully this post can be useful for others who are growing regular seeds, those who grow only feminised seeds will probably find this rather lengthy and boring. However, I will use this post myself to reference on subsequent grows, to refresh my mind on some of the different possible appearances of the immature gender structures, as there is no point reinventing the wheel each time!
To recap, I have 6 plants that I have grown from regular seeds. These 6 plants represent 3 strains of 2 plants each. The seeds were made from my grow last year using pollen harvested from an African Mulanje male. Now the plants are 'expanding' and my balcony space is fast shrinking, I need to establish who is a boy and who is a girl.Any male plants I want to chop and remove because I don't intend to make seeds on this grow, so I don't need them. And also, I need to reclaim some space on the balcony so I can grow out the females while allowing enough room to carry out plant maintenance.
Balcony lineup - 6 plants grown from regular seeds
2 plants per strain
The fact that I am growing 2 plants per strain creates a potentially interesting contrast to compare the resulting closeup pictures. i.e. if a pair of plants are one of each gender, then we can expect that there may be contrasting differences when we compare the 2 photo sets. So, once we've looked through each photo set, we can then step back and compare the photo sets of the associated pairs to see if they help us to further identify genders.
6 closeup photos of the early gender structures of each plant
To evaluate early gender structures, I would recommend making multiple closeup observations. I am now in my 60's and my once sharp eyesight has deteriorated to now be quite crap. These pictures have all been taken with only natural lighting and handholding the camera, no tripod. When trying to focus while coping with movement, the glare of the sun on the camera, it isn't easy. Some folks use a Loupe, although I have no experience of using one, and besides, I prefer to take pictures that I can enlarge on the computer to best contemplate what I am seeing.
I have condensed the number of photos I took into just 6 closeup pictures of each plant to show in these posts. Ideally, I feel double or triple the number of closeup pics would be better, but as I don't want to photobomb the heck out of this site, I am only posting 6 pics each. I think this is just enough to demonstrate how some pics if viewed in isolation can cause the wrong call to be made.
Indicators I use to evaluate gender and what I don't use
I am solely looking at closeups of the nodes and gender structures, these are the observations I have used over the past several years. Some folk use other indicators like node spacing or whatever, but I haven't considered these and have no experience in them to recommend. Nor do I consider whether the Stipules are crossed or not, some folks feel when they are crossed that it indicates a female, in my experience this is nonsense, I feel that crossed Stipules are a poor choice of indicator to use because many times I have seen the Stipules crossed whether male or female, in fact I think most of my pictures here show crossed Stipules.
The features I use of the gender structures that may suggest a female
Base: If it can be viewed, they should have a wider thicker base than males.
Shape: Usually taller than males. Usually straight, sometimes curving out then straight up.
'Filling': Usually appears more evenly 'filled'. Sometimes a little 'plumpness' that is evenly spread, not like the males where they can show 'roundness' at the lower part whereas females tend to show it in the middle and it is more gradual, even, and smooth.
Surface appearance: Usually 'softer' in appearance, more 'Yin'.
The features I use of the gender structures that may suggest a male
Base: When viewable, a narrow pedestal base may be seen underneath the gender structure.
Shape: Usually shorter than females, sometime 'bitsy' as a prelude to growing multiple balls at the location. When a 'crab claw' is present the shape can appear curved, sometimes it appears only as a single 'claw'.
'Filling': Often not 'evenly filled', sometimes almost shrunken in, sometimes a distinctly ball shape is seen at the lower part.
Surface appearance: To me, male parts often look more 'armoured', often more shiny and more 'Yang' in appearance.
Crab claw: This is really part of the shape, but when a 'crab claw' is seen, it is the sign that most indicates a male.
If determining gender from closeups they need to be good quality
I have found that when a picture is dark, fuzzy, poorly lit etc, that the resulting appearance can be deceiving where one's own mind thinks it sees something in the blur. If all you have is fuzzy blurry pics, then of course that is all you have got to go on. But for me, I very much prefer to only deal with well focused closeup pictures.
I remember maybe a decade ago, that some young Egyptology scientist claimed from viewing satellite images that she had discovered 17 'new' pyramids. But none of them turned out to be actual pyramids, it was most likely she was seeing what she wanted to see. So, if you have the choice, steer clear of poor quality photographs.
Different angles may present the structure in a biased manner causing misidentification of the gender
Mostly this happens when a male double or single 'crab claw' is viewed from the side where it's curve is not apparent, but from a different angle suddenly what first looked like a tall straight female structure was actually a 'crab claw' viewed from the side,which may have you thinking that it is one gender when it is really the other.
Not all nodes will have gender structures present
At this immature stage before balls or pistils have developed, you should check multiple node sites not just for one structure but ideally multiple nodes sites to obtain the 'range' of appearances of the early gender structures showing on that plant.
Don't make your conclusion on the first gender structure you identify
I will endeavour to show in the pictures that follow, how easy it is to be misled when the structure you have photographed appears to be one gender, but only looks that way because of the angle or lighting or blurriness etc.
Describing what I see
And finally, I will make a comment underneath each photo to say what the photo shows to me. I am not claiming any expertise just my own subjective views.
Part 1 of 5 - Introduction (due to the number of photos this update will be 5 posts in total)
Greetings 420 enthusiasts! For the past few years, I have grown both feminised and regular seeds. For each regular grow, I have looked very closely to try and identify what the sex of the plant will be from the observation of the early forming gender structures. From these observations I feel I can make a good attempt to identify the gender of the plants. Hopefully this post can be useful for others who are growing regular seeds, those who grow only feminised seeds will probably find this rather lengthy and boring. However, I will use this post myself to reference on subsequent grows, to refresh my mind on some of the different possible appearances of the immature gender structures, as there is no point reinventing the wheel each time!
To recap, I have 6 plants that I have grown from regular seeds. These 6 plants represent 3 strains of 2 plants each. The seeds were made from my grow last year using pollen harvested from an African Mulanje male. Now the plants are 'expanding' and my balcony space is fast shrinking, I need to establish who is a boy and who is a girl.Any male plants I want to chop and remove because I don't intend to make seeds on this grow, so I don't need them. And also, I need to reclaim some space on the balcony so I can grow out the females while allowing enough room to carry out plant maintenance.
Balcony lineup - 6 plants grown from regular seeds
2 plants per strain
The fact that I am growing 2 plants per strain creates a potentially interesting contrast to compare the resulting closeup pictures. i.e. if a pair of plants are one of each gender, then we can expect that there may be contrasting differences when we compare the 2 photo sets. So, once we've looked through each photo set, we can then step back and compare the photo sets of the associated pairs to see if they help us to further identify genders.
6 closeup photos of the early gender structures of each plant
To evaluate early gender structures, I would recommend making multiple closeup observations. I am now in my 60's and my once sharp eyesight has deteriorated to now be quite crap. These pictures have all been taken with only natural lighting and handholding the camera, no tripod. When trying to focus while coping with movement, the glare of the sun on the camera, it isn't easy. Some folks use a Loupe, although I have no experience of using one, and besides, I prefer to take pictures that I can enlarge on the computer to best contemplate what I am seeing.
I have condensed the number of photos I took into just 6 closeup pictures of each plant to show in these posts. Ideally, I feel double or triple the number of closeup pics would be better, but as I don't want to photobomb the heck out of this site, I am only posting 6 pics each. I think this is just enough to demonstrate how some pics if viewed in isolation can cause the wrong call to be made.
Indicators I use to evaluate gender and what I don't use
I am solely looking at closeups of the nodes and gender structures, these are the observations I have used over the past several years. Some folk use other indicators like node spacing or whatever, but I haven't considered these and have no experience in them to recommend. Nor do I consider whether the Stipules are crossed or not, some folks feel when they are crossed that it indicates a female, in my experience this is nonsense, I feel that crossed Stipules are a poor choice of indicator to use because many times I have seen the Stipules crossed whether male or female, in fact I think most of my pictures here show crossed Stipules.
The features I use of the gender structures that may suggest a female
Base: If it can be viewed, they should have a wider thicker base than males.
Shape: Usually taller than males. Usually straight, sometimes curving out then straight up.
'Filling': Usually appears more evenly 'filled'. Sometimes a little 'plumpness' that is evenly spread, not like the males where they can show 'roundness' at the lower part whereas females tend to show it in the middle and it is more gradual, even, and smooth.
Surface appearance: Usually 'softer' in appearance, more 'Yin'.
The features I use of the gender structures that may suggest a male
Base: When viewable, a narrow pedestal base may be seen underneath the gender structure.
Shape: Usually shorter than females, sometime 'bitsy' as a prelude to growing multiple balls at the location. When a 'crab claw' is present the shape can appear curved, sometimes it appears only as a single 'claw'.
'Filling': Often not 'evenly filled', sometimes almost shrunken in, sometimes a distinctly ball shape is seen at the lower part.
Surface appearance: To me, male parts often look more 'armoured', often more shiny and more 'Yang' in appearance.
Crab claw: This is really part of the shape, but when a 'crab claw' is seen, it is the sign that most indicates a male.
If determining gender from closeups they need to be good quality
I have found that when a picture is dark, fuzzy, poorly lit etc, that the resulting appearance can be deceiving where one's own mind thinks it sees something in the blur. If all you have is fuzzy blurry pics, then of course that is all you have got to go on. But for me, I very much prefer to only deal with well focused closeup pictures.
I remember maybe a decade ago, that some young Egyptology scientist claimed from viewing satellite images that she had discovered 17 'new' pyramids. But none of them turned out to be actual pyramids, it was most likely she was seeing what she wanted to see. So, if you have the choice, steer clear of poor quality photographs.
Different angles may present the structure in a biased manner causing misidentification of the gender
Mostly this happens when a male double or single 'crab claw' is viewed from the side where it's curve is not apparent, but from a different angle suddenly what first looked like a tall straight female structure was actually a 'crab claw' viewed from the side,which may have you thinking that it is one gender when it is really the other.
Not all nodes will have gender structures present
At this immature stage before balls or pistils have developed, you should check multiple node sites not just for one structure but ideally multiple nodes sites to obtain the 'range' of appearances of the early gender structures showing on that plant.
Don't make your conclusion on the first gender structure you identify
I will endeavour to show in the pictures that follow, how easy it is to be misled when the structure you have photographed appears to be one gender, but only looks that way because of the angle or lighting or blurriness etc.
Describing what I see
And finally, I will make a comment underneath each photo to say what the photo shows to me. I am not claiming any expertise just my own subjective views.
- Thread starter
- #103
Update part 2 of 5 - Mulanje HP strain pair (Mulanje x Purple Honduras/Panama)
First Mulanje HP
Comment: This looks like a female, tall/long, it's swelling appears in the middle and not the base like a male. However, we are unable to view whether the base is 'female'.
Comment: This is a bit tricky the lefthand structure looks potentially like a female, but the righthand structure looks a little bit less so. Both structures have an 'armour' like appearance of their skin which I feel is more of a male quality. Both bases are not visible to evaluate.
Comment: The top (in focus) structure appears to be male because it ticks a number of 'male boxes', it appears to be sitting on a pedestal, it is very 'ball like' low in the structure, it may have a bit of a 'crab claw' developing, and the surface appearance looks more 'armour like'. On viewing this one, I am thinking that this looks to be a male.
Comment: Both structures appear curved/twisted suggesting a male 'crab claw' appearance. Their surface appearance is quite 'armour like'. While the base is not visible, this plant is looking more and more to be a male.
Comment: While only one structure is relatively clear, they nonetheless do not have a female shape, they are short and round at the base. While I wouldn't say they have a 'classical crab claw', they have a sort of 'fronded' crab claw. The lower structure also appears to be sitting on a pedestal. Overall very male like.
Comment: Curved, 'crab claw', strong armour appearance, base not visible.
Based on this photo set of the first Mulanje HP, there are too many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
==== // ====
Second Mulanje HP
Comment: This has a good female shape, although the surface appearance looks a little 'armour like', but it doesn't appear to have a pedestal base. Looking hopeful as a female.
Comment: The top structure doesn't appear to be sitting on a base but nonetheless it looks a little armour like. The bottom structure appears to have a slight curve, is it male or just the angle of the pic? The base could be 'ball like' in the lower part but it could just be from the angle the picture was been taken from.
Comment: This is an example of a node which currently appears to have only one gender structure which looks very female in shape, and it has a very female base without a 'male' pedestal, and looks soft and even in it's surface appearance.
Comment: This also only has a gender structure on one side of the node. It looks very female in shape and surface appearance, as well as not being on a pedestal.
Comment: Very similar to the above 2. Looks very female.
Comment: These also look very female, no pedestal base is apparent.
Based on this photo set of the second Mulanje HP, it has many female attributes, I am calling this to be Female
First Mulanje HP
Based on this photo set of the first Mulanje HP, there are too many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
==== // ====
Second Mulanje HP
Based on this photo set of the second Mulanje HP, it has many female attributes, I am calling this to be Female
- Thread starter
- #104
Update part 3 of 5 - Mulanje ME strain pair (Mulanje x ((Malawi/Ethiopian) x Mulanje))
First Mulanje ME
Comment: Hmm.. this could be a curved 'crab claw' and yet it could be female, we cannot view the base. On this we cannot be certain.
Comment: This is a bad quality, poorly lit picture. They could female or they could be curved 'crab claws'.
Comment: The bottom one could be beautiful female in shape, or has it been taken at just the right angle to appear so? The top one may have a lower ball shape but it is hard to be sure, and it also has a curve, that together may suggest a male.
Comment: Well this is not good, 2 crab claws, looks like a male.
Comment: More 'crab claws' all round - male!
Comment: Crab claw - male.
Based on this photo set, so many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
==== // ====
Second Mulanje ME
Comment: Hard to say, the shape could be female, or could be the curve of a male. Surface appearance looks a little 'armour like'.
Comment: Looks more female in shape and softer surface appearance. Cannot really tell if pedestal base. Still unclear.
Comment: This looks very female, and appears to have a 'female like' base.
Comment: So far only one structure on one side, no sign of a pedestal base, shape and surface appearance is very female.
Comment: Looks female in shape and appearance.
Comment: These both appear to be female, and the apparent absence of a pedestal base further suggests female.
Based on this photo set, with many female attributes, I am calling this to be Female
First Mulanje ME
Based on this photo set, so many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
==== // ====
Second Mulanje ME
Based on this photo set, with many female attributes, I am calling this to be Female
- Thread starter
- #105
Update part 4 of 5 - Mulanje Sherbert strain pair (Mulanje x Mango Sherbert)
First Mulanje Sherbert
Comment: Not a great photo, could be female or it could be a male 'crab claw'.
Comment: Wow, look at the base, that looks nice and wide and very female in shape too.
Comment: It looks very female in shape and appearance and has a good female base rather than a pedestal base.
Comment: Oh yeah baby, pistils! This one is definitely female!
Comment: Female.
Comment: Female.
Based on this photo set, with pistils showing, this is definitely a Female
==== // ====
Second Mulanje Sherbert
Comment: This is tricky, it looks to me to be a male, although it doesn't have the 'male ball' appearance, and it has a hard parched appearance that is almost as wide as it is tall. The stem of the leaf is obscuring it's base from our view. Uncertain.
Comment: This is similar to the above, it almost looks like it is going to develop into a 'crab claw'. At this point I am thinking it might be male.
Comment: This has a similar parched appearance but it is a poor photograph with bad lighting. It almost looks like a single pistil is erupting. However, I am wary that the quality of picture is poor and therefore may not be reliable in itself. Let's look further.
Comment: This looks more male to me, it is curved with a hard armoured appearance suggesting it could be a crab claw (if viewed from a better angle).
Comment: This is not good. Base hard to view, but male ball like in lower structure. Double crab claws. This is looking very male.
Comment: And again, more crab claws.
Based on this photo set, with so many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
First Mulanje Sherbert
Based on this photo set, with pistils showing, this is definitely a Female
==== // ====
Second Mulanje Sherbert
Based on this photo set, with so many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
- Thread starter
- #106
Update part 5 of 5 - Conclusions
I don't know how this looks to other people, but to me I feel pretty confident on my calls. It looks like I have 3 males and 3 females. I wasn't able to do anything with them today as it has been raining, but I'll soon get rid of the males to free up some working space for me, and some expansion space for the females.
Comparing the photo sets of the strain pairs
On the above critique it looks like I have 1 male and 1 female for each strain pair. I think if 2 plants of the same strain pair are of opposite genders, if the 2 photo sets appear different, then I think that further supports the conclusion that each strain pair has one of each gender.
For those folks who grow regular seeds, I hope this may be of some use. For me, in a year's time I probably will have forgotten a lot of this detail so I'll be returning to these posts over my following grows to compare and reference.
All of this is my subjective 2 cents
I cannot guarantee my conclusions, only time can. But the above content, details the reasons that I have used to guide my conclusions. I profess no expertise at this, merely that I have grown regular seeds for a few years and I have observed differences in appearance between male and female gender structures, and also, I have grown them out to where their gender structures are fully revealed and confirmed, as either showing pollen balls or pistils. So, for this grow I feel I have seen enough now to identify the males and remove them.
Thanks to those of you who dropped in, I hope you and your gardens are doing great, all the very best and keep well.
I don't know how this looks to other people, but to me I feel pretty confident on my calls. It looks like I have 3 males and 3 females. I wasn't able to do anything with them today as it has been raining, but I'll soon get rid of the males to free up some working space for me, and some expansion space for the females.
Comparing the photo sets of the strain pairs
On the above critique it looks like I have 1 male and 1 female for each strain pair. I think if 2 plants of the same strain pair are of opposite genders, if the 2 photo sets appear different, then I think that further supports the conclusion that each strain pair has one of each gender.
For those folks who grow regular seeds, I hope this may be of some use. For me, in a year's time I probably will have forgotten a lot of this detail so I'll be returning to these posts over my following grows to compare and reference.
All of this is my subjective 2 cents
I cannot guarantee my conclusions, only time can. But the above content, details the reasons that I have used to guide my conclusions. I profess no expertise at this, merely that I have grown regular seeds for a few years and I have observed differences in appearance between male and female gender structures, and also, I have grown them out to where their gender structures are fully revealed and confirmed, as either showing pollen balls or pistils. So, for this grow I feel I have seen enough now to identify the males and remove them.
Thanks to those of you who dropped in, I hope you and your gardens are doing great, all the very best and keep well.
It might just be me? I don't see any pictures other than in part 1.
Edit - they are there now.
- Thread starter
- #108
No, you were right. I couldn't fit all the pics in one post, so I did multiple post quickly and then added the pictures to avoid other posts occurring between. I wrote that I was doing that in the first post, but having now completed them I have deleted that notice. Cheers!
It's fascinating. It's going to be interesting to see if you are correct.Update part 5 of 5 - Conclusions
I don't know how this looks to other people, but to me I feel pretty confident on my calls. It looks like I have 3 males and 3 females. I wasn't able to do anything with them today as it has been raining, but I'll soon get rid of the males to free up some working space for me, and some expansion space for the females.
Comparing the photo sets of the strain pairs
On the above critique it looks like I have 1 male and 1 female for each strain pair. I think if 2 plants of the same strain pair are of opposite genders, if the 2 photo sets appear different, then I think that further supports the conclusion that each strain pair has one of each gender.
For those folks who grow regular seeds, I hope this may be of some use. For me, in a year's time I probably will have forgotten a lot of this detail so I'll be returning to these posts over my following grows to compare and reference.
All of this is my subjective 2 cents
I cannot guarantee my conclusions, only time can. But the above content, details the reasons that I have used to guide my conclusions. I profess no expertise at this, merely that I have grown regular seeds for a few years and I have observed differences in appearance between male and female gender structures, and also, I have grown them out to where their gender structures are fully revealed and confirmed, as either showing pollen balls or pistils. So, for this grow I feel I have seen enough now to identify the males and remove them.
Thanks to those of you who dropped in, I hope you and your gardens are doing great, all the very best and keep well.
- Thread starter
- #110
Thanks Carmen, I am just being practical. I wish I had plenty of 'safe space' to grow loads of plants and play around with different strains etc, but the reality I've got limited growing space and 6 plants is too many for my balcony. If my predictions don't pan out, then I will take the results on board for next time. You have a good one!
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
THANKS Stunger! Very methodical and box-ticking. Of course there's no guarantee, but it seems you really know your stuff. (I say "seems" to give us/you a little "plausible deniability"
). It will be very interesting to visit this post again in a month or so when things start to become clearer.
And here's the photo, taken September 19 of the same PHxM plant (I only had one left at that point), which, on studying it closely, revealed male flowers with certainty. I initially thought those vertical "hairs" were pistils, and, confident in my skills, went away on a short vacation. While away, I looked at the photos on my laptop and zoomed in. Aggh! Those are MALE flowers! What I had overlooked are the balls forming just beneath, still closed but very definitely male flowers. Fortunately, it would still have been several days or even two weeks before those male flowers would start dispersing their pollen and I was able to prevent that.
For that reason, it might be wise to wait as long as needed to get certainty.
I've heard it's very reliably a 50% male 50% female split, but of course if you germinate 2 seeds, you might get two males and then you'd need to germinate again.
Aye, very much so, yes. And yes, I'll probably re-read this post come May.
I hope not too soon. This year I thought I had identified gender on strains that pre-flower quite late (gender was not certain for Purple Haze x Malawi until third week of September). Nonetheless, relying on my "gender identification skills", I removed all "males" and ... oops, was left with only one plant of that strain. That one looked female, but turned out to be male. Here's the photo taken August 15 that fooled me (even other growers commented it looked female, but note the two goggles at the bottom of the photo):
And here's the photo, taken September 19 of the same PHxM plant (I only had one left at that point), which, on studying it closely, revealed male flowers with certainty. I initially thought those vertical "hairs" were pistils, and, confident in my skills, went away on a short vacation. While away, I looked at the photos on my laptop and zoomed in. Aggh! Those are MALE flowers! What I had overlooked are the balls forming just beneath, still closed but very definitely male flowers. Fortunately, it would still have been several days or even two weeks before those male flowers would start dispersing their pollen and I was able to prevent that.
For that reason, it might be wise to wait as long as needed to get certainty.
I've heard it's very reliably a 50% male 50% female split, but of course if you germinate 2 seeds, you might get two males and then you'd need to germinate again.
Aye, very much so, yes. And yes, I'll probably re-read this post come May.
- Thread starter
- #112
Thanks Emeraldo! I really wanted to make an in depth reference for future regular seed determination. I am pleased I managed to show a range of different closeup appearances within a single plant. To me, it shows that we really need to check multiple nodes to be sure. Of course complete confidence only comes with either pistils or pollen balls. I have previously looked back on my past gender structure closeups (of which there is only 1 or 2) but they are a help when looking at undetermined new plants. But because of the number of pics I took, I feel now in this one post, that there are lot of good reasonably clear pics to compare and reference against future grows.THANKS Stunger! Very methodical and box-ticking. Of course there's no guarantee, but it seems you really know your stuff. (I say "seems" to give us/you a little "plausible deniability"). It will be very interesting to visit this post again in a month or so when things start to become clearer.
It looks like a double post of the same pic.
But is that actually a male? There appears to be pistils at several nodes. When I first looked at the 'male' part my eyes initially assumed it to be a cluster of early stage pollen balls at the bottom of the pictures, but when I put aside being told it is a male, now I am not so sure, it makes my point that when a picture is a little bit tricky to determine we can 'see' something that may not be there, as it almost looks like a female gender structure with 2 spent collapsed browned pistils coming out of it's top*? Underneath it, there is something else, it doesn't really look so much as a pollen ball but a little flat tip of something, unless it is a single pollen ball with a 'pointy crown' on a very very long thin pedestal, is that what it is?
But if those are pistils as well as pollen balls, then in that case wouldn't that make it a hermied female rather than male? Or perhaps those aren't pistils but a trick of the light?
Sharp clear closeup pics and multiple pics of different nodes are what really help remove doubt. It is a point that I tried to make in my previous post, that a single picture because of the angle/lighting etc can completely misdirect the conclusion. I make these above comments about what I can see in that single picture. I can only see possibilities, I can't see anything definitely, because the image clarity doesn't support it, it is probably more enlarged than taken as a closeup. But you had the plant itself on hand and you presumably were able to clearly see pollen and pollen balls on it, were there pistils too, a hermie?
* It is my belief that many female plants will actually produce very early pistils, just maybe just 1 or 2 on the whole plant (my passionfruit vine this year made one sour passionfruit in the middle of winter), these early pre flowers will be viable for any early drifting pollen that may catch on them (I'm talking outdoors). I saw this occur a few years ago when my eyesight was a lot better and I was growing with regular seeds. I spent a lot of time looking at the nodes to check for gender, I was really surprised one day to find a single female pre flower with 2 white pistils and no others on the plant for weeks (this is something someone with good eyesight can do, otherwise it is too hard unless only 1 plant maybe). I was of course pleased to have confirmation that my plant from a regular seed was female, but later I was intrigued about this single pre flower that bloomed 'early pistils', of course it shrivelled and went brown when the rest eventually came out with their many white fresh ones (could be similar to your pic). And I assumed that this is the same with many plants in nature that there will be both early and late flowers, and early and late pollen, because nature tries to prepare for 'just in case'. But it can't have been this, as you must have seen the pollen and pollen balls.
Yes I have read the same, that the split is roughly 50/50 from regular seeds. But, my last grow of 4 regular seeds produced 3 females and 1 male. I have read of others who similarly got large majorities of one gender over the over. Who knows for sure, but yes I'd assume 50/50 would be the most likely (it'd be the one to choose if you were a betting person), but what you end up getting could turn out to be anything I guess.
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
Stunger, my previous post evolved over about an hour. I edited it several times, so please have another look.
The two photos I posted today are not the same photo, but they are two almost identical photos showing what looks like pistils. (I posted both photos in the 420 photo gallery in August and one in my grow journals on 420 and on icmag). Today, I first inserted the two photos (taken on August 15, of the same PHxM plant) in my previous post. They show a pistil-like structure that fooled me and several other quite experienced growers who posted back that it looked female. Their posts are on the PHxM thread on icmag around August 15. Today, while you were responding, I guess, I removed one of those photos to avoid the repetitiveness you noticed.
I then inserted another photo, taken September 19, which proves beyond any doubt that the same plant was male. So my answer to your question is Yes, that is actually a male.
However, I was confident he was female in August. Who wouldn't be? Those August 15 "pistils" had me very happy there for a few weeks. It was a shocker to find the male flowers growing at the top of that branch. Maybe I had a hermaphrodite. Either way, he/she/it had to go.
As for the male/female ratio, it's true that in popping say 10 seeds you can end up with 6 of one gender. Doesn't really mean anything with that small of a sample. But I think you're right that the oft-quoted 50/50 ratio is just a rough approximation. Unlike mammals, though, cannabis sex is not pre-determined in the (regular) seed. I've read that stress, e.g., in a year of drought, more plants from regular seed will turn out male (and in a healthy low stress environment the females can often slightly outnumber males). It seems both (1) inherited genetics of the specific plant and (2) factors in the environment play a role in determining cannabis gender. Cannabis Sex: What Determines It?
One other thing needs mentioning. You would be interested to read Jorge Cervantes' Marijuana Outdoors, where he writes that the best place to look for gender identification is not at the mid-level nodes but higher up on the plant, e.g., at the tops of branches where upper colas will form. (Marijuana Outdoors is available in a Kindle version and is the best book on outdoor growing I have read). This tip would have some support from my PHxM this year: I thought I saw a pistil at a mid-level node but ultimately male flowers developed at the top of the branch.
Cheers
What a terrific job of photographing and explaining your whole process! 
Like any good mystery, I'm looking forward to the next chapter...
Like any good mystery, I'm looking forward to the next chapter...
Great presentation, Stunger....very interesting how different the indicators can look before they show us what they are... it's almost like they have trouble deciding...
Might be an illusion, but it looks like a short pistil to me...
Photo 6/3 - I think I see a pistil on that one...
Might be an illusion, but it looks like a short pistil to me...
Emeraldo
Well-Known Member
Hey Stunger, I agree with everyone that you've really done a thorough job of gender ID here. For the reason given, I am now of the view that the only way to really know early on is to actually put the plants into flower. That doesn't mean one can't look for signs! I hope your choices turn out to be correct. Cheers, Emo
- Thread starter
- #117
Thanks Carcass! Yes when viewing gender structures over multiple node sites there does appear quite a variation in their appearance. But so often the lighting doesn't help, or the image quality is grainy and poor, or just the view angle causes us to misidentify. That's why to me, that one needs to look at more than a single node, and get multiple good closeup pics.Great presentation, Stunger....very interesting how different the indicators can look before they show us what they are... it's almost like they have trouble deciding...
Photo 6/3 - I think I see a pistil on that one...
Might be an illusion, but it looks like a short pistil to me...
Re 6/3 - I made the following comment under that picture
Comment: This has a similar parched appearance but it is a poor photograph with bad lighting. It almost looks like a single pistil is erupting. However, I am wary that the quality of picture is poor and therefore may not be reliable in itself. Let's look further.
Overall, I feel each photo set of each pair looks different (to me) from the other pair member, which seems a good confirming indicator of the plant's gender when each pair appear to have 1 of each gender. If we take the first picture we see, we may run off in the wrong direction. I feel looking at the other pics that there are too many 'crab claws'. I haven't had a female yet with crab claws so I find those pretty damning.
Cheers Emeraldo! Yep I'm hoping too. Today I chopped out the 3 plants I viewed as males. Yes I could be cautious and wait for pistil or ball confirmation, but I have formed a theory and applied it, so once clear and happy with the theory it doesn't make sense to doubt myself. If the outcome is different from my predictions then I'll take it on the chin and go back to the drawing board and try and improve the theory!
But putting them into flower also means you go straight to get a definite answer which is good. I don't currently have a light to do that, and I didn't fancy trying to block the light on them on the balcony as it is too hard when it's sheeting down with rain, or when the wind goes over 100kph. When the weather is like that, I cannot even open the doors to attend the plants as the rain will go all over the carpet, and I'll be sleeping out in the chook house!
Just a suggestion but if you could circleUpdate part 2 of 5 - Mulanje HP strain pair (Mulanje x Purple Honduras/Panama)
First Mulanje HP
Comment: This looks like a female, tall/long, it's swelling appears in the middle and not the base like a male. However, we are unable to view whether the base is 'female'.
Comment: This is a bit tricky the lefthand structure looks potentially like a female, but the righthand structure looks a little bit less so. Both structures have an 'armour' like appearance of their skin which I feel is more of a male quality. Both bases are not visible to evaluate.
Comment: The top (in focus) structure appears to be male because it ticks a number of 'male boxes', it appears to be sitting on a pedestal, it is very 'ball like' low in the structure, it may have a bit of a 'crab claw' developing, and the surface appearance looks more 'armour like'. On viewing this one, I am thinking that this looks to be a male.
Comment: Both structures appear curved/twisted suggesting a male 'crab claw' appearance. Their surface appearance is quite 'armour like'. While the base is not visible, this plant is looking more and more to be a male.
Comment: While only one structure is relatively clear, they nonetheless do not have a female shape, they are short and round at the base. While I wouldn't say they have a 'classical crab claw', they have a sort of 'fronded' crab claw. The lower structure also appears to be sitting on a pedestal. Overall very male like.
Comment: Curved, 'crab claw', strong armour appearance, base not visible.
Based on this photo set of the first Mulanje HP, there are too many male attributes, I am calling this to be Male
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Second Mulanje HP
Comment: This has a good female shape, although the surface appearance looks a little 'armour like', but it doesn't appear to have a pedestal base. Looking hopeful as a female.
Comment: The top structure doesn't appear to be sitting on a base but nonetheless it looks a little armour like. The bottom structure appears to have a slight curve, is it male or just the angle of the pic? The base could be 'ball like' in the lower part but it could just be from the angle the picture was been taken from.
Comment: This is an example of a node which currently appears to have only one gender structure which looks very female in shape, and it has a very female base without a 'male' pedestal, and looks soft and even in it's surface appearance.
Comment: This also only has a gender structure on one side of the node. It looks very female in shape and surface appearance, as well as not being on a pedestal.
Comment: Very similar to the above 2. Looks very female.
Comment: These also look very female, no pedestal base is apparent.
Based on this photo set of the second Mulanje HP, it has many female attributes, I am calling this to be Female
️ what you are seeing so we would know for sure what your looking at. Thanks. CL
Yes you did! - sorry, I was reading the caption above the pic...
Got my captions crossed...
Great stuff bud. A little late to the party but looking forward to seeing the balcony of dreams again this year.