Stardawg17, Dutch Bucket, Cookie Wreck, Auto, 2022

[Rexer]

Thanks for the tag Shed

Holy smokes that's a lot of products!

What's your current PPM in the reservoir?
what's the temperature in the reservoir?
How's the ph been?
And what order did you mix your nutes? There's a specific order, for the mixing I'll include it below.

Here this might help with mixing your nutrients. Taken from a different site, don't worry if you don't use all the products listed.

taken from different website:

Order Matters!
Nutrients should be added to the water in a specific order to prevent lock-out. Silicon should be added first and given time to dissolve. Cal/Mag is second and should be added before the base nutrients. At the other end, Rapidstart, which has no impact on EC or pH should be added at the absolute end. Rapid start and H2O2 (when used) can be added after the final pH adjustment.

The Order to Mix Nutrients
Add Silicon and give solution at least one hour to dissolve
Add Cal/Mag supplement
Add Base Nutrients
First “Micro”
Second “Grow”
Third “Bloom”
Add Bloom Booster
Add Humic Acid
Add SM-90 (I now use RAW Yucca as a wetting agent instead. See our article: "Recommended Nutrient Supplements for Growing Cannabis")
Measure and adjust the pH of the solution
Add Rapid Start
Add H2O2/beneficial microbes (if needed for reservoir)



Set your ph to 5.5, let it rise naturally to 6.3 (unless specified otherwise by manufacturer). Theres a link on ph and hydroponics in my signature for some further reading on it if you'd like.

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks for the tag Shed

And for the reply Rex!

 

[stardawg17]

What's your current PPM in the reservoir?
what's the temperature in the reservoir?
How's the ph been?
And what order did you mix your nutes?

@Rexer I mixed the nutes in the following order...
ArmorSi, Calimagic, micro, grow, bloom, Silica Gold, Hormex

Tent Temp (F)
max	min	avg
88.34545455	64.8	75.88050501
Tent RH (%)
max	min	avg
82.25	45.86111111	74.20709714
pH
max	min	avg
6.34	5.06625	5.976059929
TDS (PPM)
max	min	avg
352.95	290.1063333	329.6451358

Reservoir Temp (F)
max	min	avg
69.8	62.41193548	66.37049984

Thinking this was a nutrient burn issue I added a gallon of RO water yesterday and another again today.

PPM

PH

RES Temp

and i trimmed the burnt leaves

 

[Rexer]

@Rexer I mixed the nutes in the following order...
ArmorSi, Calimagic, micro, grow, bloom, Silica Gold, Hormex

Tent Temp (F)
max	min	avg
88.34545455	64.8	75.88050501
Tent RH (%)
max	min	avg
82.25	45.86111111	74.20709714
pH
max	min	avg
6.34	5.06625	5.976059929
TDS (PPM)
max	min	avg
352.95	290.1063333	329.6451358

Reservoir Temp (F)
max	min	avg
69.8	62.41193548	66.37049984

Thinking this was a nutrient burn issue I added a gallon of RO water yesterday and another again today.

PPM

PH

RES Temp

and i trimmed the burnt leaves

Ok
So, I suspect a few possibilities.
First, would be a lockout. But to confirm that Shed or @FelipeBlu would need to check your numbers.

I must say, your organizational skills are superb! This is just where I lack the skill to run the numbers (and I don't own a computer).

I was able to take a better look at your pics and had a few questions and observations. First of all... nicely done!

I do see that there is a sign of nitrogen toxicity on her.

I don't see where your airline is...are you aerating your reservoir? I'm assuming you're recycling your feed (and not drain to waste).

The PVC pipe needs two things IMO. At minimal, Id cover those open holes. I see you went through the trouble of blocking light on your container well, so you understand the principles. Any light contacting your nutrients will become an algae source. And white PVC is good for keeping cooler temps, but unless there is a layer of black paint, light "bleeds" through, and again algea. Once you see it setting in, your already in a fighting battle, and loosing.



i also see that your using two Si products? And that you mixed one towards the end. You need to mix Si first, and give it time to bond to the water. If it's feasible, give it a night. In a pinch, an hour. Truthfully, I don't even add it anymore in mine (though I believe I'm in the minority there).

Also, consider hydroguard, or root protector, or Orca, or Microbial Mass (in no particular order). Bonus if you can add enzymes (Hygrozyme is one example). Or go sterile and introduce Food grade H202. Sterile is cheaper, but I personally prefer using beneficials.

You can skip the enzymes, but I'd grab one of the others, or a similar baccullis based solution.


Hope that helps!

 

[stardawg17]

@Rexer thank you so much for taking time to help me out...you're far too generous with the compliments

I don't see where your airline is...are you aerating your reservoir? I'm assuming you're recycling your feed (and not drain to waste).

Just for clarity....this is not a DWC system. The Dutch (bato) buckets have about 2" of hydroton in the bottom and is filled with perlite on top of that. The bucket will hold about 1/2 gallon of nutrient solution which gets recirculated to the reservoir with each feeding. Your assumption is correct that I aerate the reservoir with an air pump and stone diffuser. I also have a sample pump that runs up to a separate reservoir that houses my water quality samples. This reservoir has holes in the sides that return the solution to the main tank creating a fountain for additional aeration.

I started with 1-2 G/H drip line that ran 15 minutes every 2 hours. Yesterday I scaled that back to every 4 hours. I suspected the problem may have been with the roots getting squashed when I transplanted from the DWC system to the Dutch bucket. I pulled the plant out today and inspected and the roots I was concerned about were hard to see because of the perlite attached, but, everything I saw was white so I believe the roots are OK.

I did notice the perlite seemed dry to the touch which seems abnormal based of off past grows when I've emptied the buckets after harvest. I'm not 100% sure there, but, my last couple of grows I used 2 feed lines instead of just 1 so I added a second feed line with the 2 G/H emitter.

 

[Rexer]

@Rexer thank you so much for taking time to help me out...you're far too generous with the compliments

Well deserved compliments! I wish I was half as organized as you are, and it's clear that you put a lot of time and thought into your setup.

Just for clarity....this is not a DWC system. The Dutch (bato) buckets have about 2" of hydroton in the bottom and is filled with perlite on top of that.

Yup. I came very close to doing a Dutch bucket run this winter...i ended up doing a small RDWC instead. Needless to say, i caught exactly what you were doing (and it helps ive seen PGA Caddie's setup).
Question though, is there anything under your net cup? Or are the roots exposed once they get past the net cup?

The bucket will hold about 1/2 gallon of nutrient solution which gets recirculated to the reservoir with each feeding. Your assumption is correct that I aerate the reservoir with an air pump and stone diffuser.

excellent! I was just making sure that the roots were getting aerated nutrients. The perlite helps aerating, but doesn't eliminate the need for an airpump.

I also have a sample pump that runs up to a separate reservoir that houses my water quality samples. This reservoir has holes in the sides that return the solution to the main tank creating a fountain for additional aeration.

I started with 1-2 G/H drip line that ran 15 minutes every 2 hours. Yesterday I scaled that back to every 4 hours.

I'd say thats too long of a duration in between.
Try increasing instead of decreasing. 20 min every 1.5 hours might work. That's similar to what I run when doing my buckets (similar concept as a Dutch bucket, but I use hydroton instead of perlite).
But I also see that you've got Rockwool on the seedling, and that can retain nutrients well past fertigation. Once those roots are long enough, move the dripper away so the rockwool stays dry. Your plant will thank you.

Rockwool is a love / hate thing for me. I used to use it for propagation, but after loosing a few seedlings to dampening off, i switched to Rapid Rooters and never looked back.

But thats me, many have had success with it.

I suspected the problem may have been with the roots getting squashed when I transplanted from the DWC system to the Dutch bucket.

that can happen easily brother, if that's the case they should have recovered quickly. Unless the tap root was damaged. But they seem to have grown, then a deficiency or lockout, or something happened that is hindering growth.

I pulled the plant out today and inspected and the roots I was concerned about were hard to see because of the perlite attached, but, everything I saw was white so I believe the roots are OK.

White is good. Truthfully, you can ditch the perlite over the hydroton. The two don't always play well together. I'd say use one or the other for your net cup.

I did notice the perlite seemed dry to the touch which seems abnormal based of off past grows when I've emptied the buckets after harvest.

ok, i wasn't sure if you had tried this method before.
Is there anything that you've changed since your last grow? Newer products?

I'm not 100% sure there, but, my last couple of grows I used 2 feed lines instead of just 1 so I added a second feed line with the 2 G/H emitter.

Well it certainly won't hurt! Just keep an eye on that Rockwool, don't let it stay soggy wet...

 

[InTheShed]

Well, I am certainly enjoying this conversation and I'm glad I've connected the two of you!

But to confirm that Shed or @FelipeBlu would need to check your numbers.

It would take me quite some time to accumulate the info and do the data entry on all those ingredients, but I'm not sure anyone wants to hear an after-the-money's-spent analysis on their regimen either.


Also, I didn't notice Gatorade in the nute list!

 

[Rexer]

Well, I am certainly enjoying this conversation and I'm glad I've connected the two of you!

Oh I love his setup! I would kill to get have a live PH and PPM chart like that

It would take me quite some time to accumulate the info and do the data entry on all those ingredients, but I'm not sure anyone wants to hear an after-the-money's-spent analysis on their regimen either.

Fair enough, but would too much Si cause any lockouts?

Also, I didn't notice Gatorade in the nute list!

Good catch!

UV light?
If you do add beneficial microbes, turn the light off so you don't kill the good bacteria!!

 

[InTheShed]

Fair enough, but would too much Si cause any lockouts?

Rarely do manufacturers recommend anywhere near as much Si as I run (or MrSauga or farside, or Felipe I believe), but the fact that they are both potassium silicate means there is plenty of chance to be over on the potassium numbers when you add in the rest of the bottles.

I run monosilicic acid, which is pure silica.

 

[stardawg17]

Well deserved compliments! I wish I was half as organized as you are, and it's clear that you put a lot of time and thought into your setup.

Yup. I came very close to doing a Dutch bucket run this winter...i ended up doing a small RDWC instead. Needless to say, i caught exactly what you were doing (and it helps ive seen PGA Caddie's setup).
Question though, is there anything under your net cup? Or are the roots exposed once they get past the net cup?

the hydroton in the net cup is to keep the perlite from escaping while it's in the bubbler. The perlite on top is to keep out the light. the rockwool is a clone starter plug cut in half that was recommended by my local hydro store owner to start my seeds (which I still struggle with.) In the bucket the bottom 2 inches is hydroton and then filled to the rim w/ perlite, except the hole for the net cup...so the net cup sits right on perlite.

excellent! I was just making sure that the roots were getting aerated nutrients. The perlite helps aerating, but doesn't eliminate the need for an airpump.

I'd say thats too long of a duration in between.
Try increasing instead of decreasing. 20 min every 1.5 hours might work. That's similar to what I run when doing my buckets (similar concept as a Dutch bucket, but I use hydroton instead of perlite).

My previous grows I started with 15-20 minute feeds 2-3 times / day. Once they start to stretch I bump it up to 15 minutes every 2 hours. I'm open to experimentation. This is only my 4th grow and I'm still figuring things out.

But I also see that you've got Rockwool on the seedling, and that can retain nutrients well past fertigation. Once those roots are long enough, move the dripper away so the rockwool stays dry. Your plant will thank you.

The roots were about 8" out of the net cup when I transplanted. I have moved the drip lines to the edge of the net cup. My past runs I actually had the hosed tucked into the slit in the lid further away from the plant. I can go back to that model but it's easier to ensure the drippers aren't clogged when I can see them

Rockwool is a love / hate thing for me. I used to use it for propagation, but after loosing a few seedlings to dampening off, i switched to Rapid Rooters and never looked back.

I'm not having good luck with it. I'm hoping that clone delivery service is legit. I've done 1 grow with clones and it was like butter

But thats me, many have had success with it.

that can happen easily brother, if that's the case they should have recovered quickly. Unless the tap root was damaged. But they seem to have grown, then a deficiency or lockout, or something happened that is hindering growth.

White is good. Truthfully, you can ditch the perlite over the hydroton. The two don't always play well together. I'd say use one or the other for your net cup.

ok, i wasn't sure if you had tried this method before.
Is there anything that you've changed since your last grow? Newer products?

Well it certainly won't hurt! Just keep an eye on that Rockwool, don't let it stay soggy wet...

 

[stardawg17]

Oh I love his setup! I would kill to get have a live PH and PPM chart like that

If you're really interested I can walk you through making one. It is a little pricey. I started with cheaper components and got what I paid for...so...I had to go big. If you got the cheese I recommend this setup.

Fair enough, but would too much Si cause any lockouts?

Good catch!

UV light?
If you do add beneficial microbes, turn the light off so you don't kill the good bacteria!!

Yup...UV light. I think I might add one into that return pipe. They're only $20 and they're waterproof

 

[West Hippie]

If you're really interested I can walk you through making one. It is a little pricey. I started with cheaper components and got what I paid for...so...I had to go big. If you got the cheese I recommend this setup.

Yup...UV light. I think I might add one into that return pipe. They're only $20 and they're waterproof

Sorry I missed this yesterday, nice setup! Also like the Wi-Fi setup. Mind if I tag along ?

 

[Rexer]

the hydroton in the net cup is to keep the perlite from escaping while it's in the bubbler. The perlite on top is to keep out the light. the rockwool is a clone starter plug cut in half that was recommended by my local hydro store owner to start my seeds (which I still struggle with.) In the bucket the bottom 2 inches is hydroton and then filled to the rim w/ perlite, except the hole for the net cup...so the net cup sits right on perlite.

Awesome

My previous grows I started with 15-20 minute feeds 2-3 times / day. Once they start to stretch I bump it up to 15 minutes every 2 hours. I'm open to experimentation. This is only my 4th grow and I'm still figuring things out.

The roots were about 8" out of the net cup when I transplanted. I have moved the drip lines to the edge of the net cup. My past runs I actually had the hosed tucked into the slit in the lid further away from the plant.

I think if you can pull it a bit further back from the plant, you might be able to replicate your previous experiences. It should also encourage root growth.

I can go back to that model but it's easier to ensure the drippers aren't clogged when I can see them

Yup,Let that Rockwool dry up.

I'm not having good luck with it. I'm hoping that clone delivery service is legit. I've done 1 grow with clones and it was like butter

well if you ever want to try something that id recommend- give rapid rooters a try. Easiest thing for germination ive found.

If you're really interested I can walk you through making one. It is a little pricey. I started with cheaper components and got what I paid for...so...I had to go big. If you got the cheese I recommend this setup.

Looks beautiful, but my budget is stretched for the next good while. Maybe once I can get the grow rooms done, and a few other projects . Wish I could get it all done right away, but lumber prices and other life bills keep jumping up.

Yup...UV light. I think I might add one into that return pipe. They're only $20 and they're waterproof

Nice!


I'm still of the mind of a possible nutrient problem, potassium toxicity? .

Wish I could help more, as you can see I'm no pro.

 

[West Hippie]

Awesome

I think if you can pull it a bit further back from the plant, you might be able to replicate your previous experiences. It should also encourage root growth.


Yup,Let that Rockwool dry up.

well if you ever want to try something that id recommend- give rapid rooters a try. Easiest thing for germination ive found.


Looks beautiful, but my budget is stretched for the next good while. Maybe once I can get the grow rooms done, and a few other projects . Wish I could get it all done right away, but lumber prices and other life bills keep jumping up.

Nice!


I'm still of the mind of a possible nutrient problem, potassium toxicity? .

Wish I could help more, as you can see I'm no pro.

From what I’ve read on the MSA it uptakes asap. I noticed the reservoir temp hit 62 degrees I remember you found out 73 is perfect number ! My Acapulco Gold and White Widow did the same as those leaves but that’s dwc , stalled for a week before I clipped those off and changed the bucket out . The trouble shooting pics I looked at say the same as you ! Budgets all started when I retired .

 

[stardawg17]

Sorry I missed this yesterday, nice setup! Also like the Wi-Fi setup. Mind if I tag along ?

By all means...welcome aboard!

 

[stardawg17]

From what I’ve read on the MSA it uptakes asap. I noticed the reservoir temp hit 62 degrees I remember you found out 73 is perfect number ! My Acapulco Gold and White Widow did the same as those leaves but that’s dwc , stalled for a week before I clipped those off and changed the bucket out . The trouble shooting pics I looked at say the same as you ! Budgets all started when I retired .

Sorry for the ignorance, but what is MSA? Are you saying you that when you're plants did this it was a potassium toxicity like Rex suggested? Do I fix that with MSA?

I guess I need to turn up the heater in the res. I broke my old reliable one and had to go to my backup and haven't dialed it in yet.

It does look like she's rebounded today...grew about 1/2" taller. I'm thinking the cold res temp and the high tent temp was not ideal for transplanting from the DWC to the Dutch Bucket

@Rexer I took this pic before I moved that feed line to the edge of the net cup
I also raised the light a few inches from 12 to 15 from the top of the plant.

 

[InTheShed]

what is MSA?

MSA is monosilicic acid, which is a form of silica not blended with anything else (like the potassium in potassium silicate) and doesn't need to be broken down for the plants to take it up. Potassium silicate needs to break down into its component parts before the plant can use either.

Two other advantages of MSA are that it doesn't change the pH of your mix like potassium silicate does, and it won't add potassium to your mix, potentially causing a toxicity when mixed with other nutes containing K.

It is more expensive though. I use DutchPro Silica from Amazon.

 

[stardawg17]

I think this old mind is beginning to process the information. So, both Armor Si and Silica Gold are silicon additives derived from Potassium (K). This is boosting my K level which is causing a Magnesium (Mg) deficiency. I found on the plant abuse chart that Mg deficiency looks like a compelling match for my exact issue.

Plant abuse chart example

My sample

I will be changing out the reservoir today and I will cut the Silica Gold from my regimen. Thanks for all the help

 

[stardawg17]

Week 3 Report:

Tent Temp:

Tent Humidity:

PH:

TDS:

Reservoir Temp:

She appears much happier now

 

[stardawg17]

Today I changed out the reservoir. I also switched the feed schedule back to 15 minutes / 2 hours. Also, I think I failed to mention that since these are autos my lights are on 24/7.

Nutes	ml/gal	gallons	Total ml
FloraMicro	2.5	6	15
FloraGro	2.5	6	15
FloraBloom	1.25	6	7.5
KoolBloom	0	6	0
Floralicous+	0	6	0
Armor Si	0.5	6	3
CaliMag	1.25	6	7.5
Flora Nectar	0	6	0
Silica Gold	0	6	0
FloraKleen	0	6	0
Hormex	2.5	6	15

Current Status: