Speyedr's White Widow Deep Water Culture SCROG, House & Garden Nutes - 1st Grow EVER!

[Speyedr]

So I thought I'd chronicle my grow here as I am a little over two weeks into it and have managed to retard my little ones. They are only ~1in & 2in respectively with a little root growth emerging from the pots.

I have:

-SH Deep Water Culture system
-2 air discs w/ SH included air pump
-250W air cooled w/ convertible e-ballast
-House & Garden Aqua Flakes, Roots Exceleurator (silly Dutch), and their other additives for later.
-Hanna Grow Check meter (turns off occasionally when ballast is running or not, but not a problem)
-18" x 24" screen for the SCROG

Grow Area is fairly tight space under stairs with max height of 4' (hence the SCROG. I figure this is no different than a cabinet and there is more lateral space, probably 6' or so. Walls lined with Mylar coated bubble insulation.
-150cfm fan for the light
-Another 150cfm fan hooked to a Can Filter for exhaust - temp controlled to start @ 76f and stop @ 73f.

I have some pics of the space pre-build out. I will gather some current pics as well and post a little later on.
I also have a job that keeps me from messing with the grow any more than I have, but I have still managed to 'love them up' way more than I should. I'll post my screw ups to date shortly.

Pull up a chair and give an aspiring Deep Water Culture a hand.

 

[Olias]

Good Luck and welcome to the Deep Water Culture

 

[Speyedr]

No doubt you're going to love them to death...

this sounds like a pH issue to me... change out the res.

do you use dark hours? a short 4 hour dark period per day will help tease those roots faster into the res. once you've changed it to one they like of course.

what is your EC?

don't worry about burning your plants with too many nutrients, plants will only take in what they need. The key is in keeping those nutrients available to the plant... anyway, your problem here is doubtless pH.

As I posted in the other thread I have already (2 days ago) completely cleaned and changed out the res for tap only, no nutes. The pH is much better, but it does still drift. I am currently making RO to mix up the nutes according to the H&G nute schedule.

 

[Speyedr]

Here are some pre-build pics. The space has since been built out and I will post pics of that as soon as I can:

Far left

Ceiling

Center

Far Right

As I said the space is small and getting good pics requires a Yogi, and that ain't me

 

[Speyedr]

Here is my log to date. The amount of love amazes me, and might just kill my plants:

2/23 - started 2 x White Widow (Nirvana) femmed dierectly in Deep Water Culture using RO water @ pH5.8 under 250W MH @20" above top of res.
room - 75f / rel hum 50% / res 75f

2/24 - room 77f / hum 55% / res 78f / pH6.6 - added pH down -dropped to pH5.5. Placed sheet of bubble mylar over empty slots in lid to keep light out.

2/25 - room 77f / hum 55% / res 78f / pH6.6 - redcted to 5.5

2/26 - room 77f / hum 57% / res 78f / pH6.5 - reduced to 5.7 - impatience forced me to check the rockwool looking for sprouts. Both sprouted. Res temp concerned me so I added an ice pack to reuce temp.

2/27 - room 77f / hum 57% / res 76f / pH6.5 - reduced to 5.7 - added new ice pack. Back sprout emerged. lowered light to 15" aove res.

2/28 - room 77f / hum 57% / res 77f / pH6.15 - reduced to 5.5 - lowered light to 13.5"

3/1 - room 77f / hum 57% / res 77f / pH6.6 - reduced to 5.5 - lowered light to 12". Added 2nd air pump & 3rd stone to try to reduce res temp. Both air pumps moved the back of the space near vent hole.

3/2 - room 77f / hum 57% / res 77f / pH7 - reduced to 5.7 - back seedling showing signs of either light burn, heat burn or wind burn. Maybe due to mylar on res top reflecting light to underside of leaves?? Covered with white paper to test. Raised light back to 15" above res.

3/3 - room 75f / hum 59% / res 66f / pH6.5 - reduced to 5 / EC 1028 - res change; Added nutes per schedule to RO water with baking soda to buffer pH (BIG mistake). Raised light again. Removed Mylar cover from res top. Changed temp controler range to 73f - 76f.

3/4 - room 75f / hum 57% / res 76f / pH7 - reduced to 6.2 and back @ 7 in 1/2hr!! (Buffer, of course) / EC 1010 due to dilution from pH adjustments. - Still wilting. Turned off HID and put seedling flouro tubes in place.

3/5 - room 74f / hum 50% / res 76f / pH8 / EC 1010 - performed res change to resolve pH drift. Used tap w/ no buffer added. During change there were signs of Algae but I did not realize it at the time. Thought it was the nutes. Remember I am a Newb. Seedlings look better under the tubes.

3/7 - room 75f / hum 55% / res 76f / pH6.8 - reduced to 5.5 / EC 1028 - plants look better. pH still drifting.

3/8 - room 75f / hum 55% / res 76f / pH6.8 - reduced to 5.5 / EC 1028

3/9 - room 75f / hum 55% / res 74f / pH6.8 - reduced to 5.5 / EC 1028 - pH seems to 'like' to be @ 6.8. Swapped sprouting tubes for SH Daylight CFL to increase lighting. Seems OK after a few hours.

3/10 - room 74f / hum 55% / res 77f / pH6.8 / EC 1028 - ALGAE!! - drained res and cleaned everything. Soaked everything in H2O2 and disassembled and cleaned all parts thoroughly. Replaced all airlines and tubing where possible. Refilled with tap only (H2O2 added) due to rumor that H & G is not good for bubbles.

3/11 - room 74f / hum 55% / res 77f / pH6.5 - reduced to 5.5 / EC 300

3/12 - room 75f / hum 55% / res 77f / pH6.5 - reduced to 5.5 / EC 300 - res temp is frustrating. Fashioned a PC exhaust fan to an unused net cup to vent and try to lower temp. seems to be working. Plants look good. Recovering slowly.

3/13 - room 75f / hum 55% / res 75.6f / pH6.8 / EC 300 - pH still drifting. No nutes. Making RO water for mixing nutes to reintroduce. W/ no Algae, hopefully they will help stabilize the pH and feed the plants.

 

[Speyedr]

It is in Micro Siemens /cm on my meter (0.3 may be the number you are expecting). I am not sure what the default conversion factor is.

Note that this is TAP water, no nutes. With nutes it is much higher, closer to 1028 Micro-Siemens/cm (1.028 EC) for the first stage of the schedule.

I am following the schedule for my nutes from the manufacturer.

 

[Roseman]

I just found this thread.

I'm a little concerned about the water temp of 77, if I read that right. You got to get that down below 71, and mid-60s like 65 to 68 would be much better.
What are you doing about Air Circulation?

 

[Speyedr]

and your nutrient manufacturer suggest starting with plain tap water in hydro?

No, they don't, but Roseman and others do and I would rather try to play it safe, though I am not doing a great job of that.

Thanks for your input though.

 

[Speyedr]

I just found this thread.

I'm a little concerned about the water temp of 77, if I read that right. You got to get that down below 71, and mid-60s like 65 to 68 would be much better.
What are you doing about Air Circulation?

I am concerned about this as well.

I have a 160CFM or so fan with a can filter on it. The space is quite small and this is more than sufficient turnover from what I've read.

My confusion about this comes from having to keep the space in the low to mid 70's but the res below 71. How do you do this?

 

[C5Rftw]

sometimes you need big fans, like 300cfm+ to cool a room. was is the temp with the light off?

 

[Speyedr]

sometimes you need big fans, like 300cfm+ to cool a room. was is the temp with the light off?

Space would go to about 67f without the lights. Right now using one CFL but getting ready to jack up the 250W MH once the plants shows signs of recovery. It is air cooled and when it was running I was still able to keep the space 73f - 77f at all times.

My question remains though. How do you get a 6gal res 5f -8f below the ambient temp in 24hr veg?? Especially with a 250MH beating down on it??

Like I posted earlier, I setup a computer fan mounted to one of the net cups that is not in use. I put some black foam in it (large pores) to block light and run the fan 24/7. It has lowered the temps to around 75f. I am hoping that when I do a res change it will be able to keep it closer to the original 65f.

On another note, I mixed up my nutes with RO water and the pH of the mix is around 3.8!! If it doesn't come up tomorrow I will add some pH up but I am hesitant to do so. Anyone who uses these nutes have this experience? It is RO so EC is quite low and pH is around 6.2 before adding nutes.

The joys of growing...

 

[StinkFinger]

On another note, I mixed up my nutes with RO water and the pH of the mix is around 3.8!! If it doesn't come up tomorrow I will add some pH up but I am hesitant to do so. Anyone who uses these nutes have this experience? It is RO so EC is quite low and pH is around 6.2 before adding nutes.

The joys of growing...

Hey Speyedr.

Perhaps a tip, perhaps not. You want to try and "hit" your PH Down on your first try....Using the PH up will start to drive you mad, because it'll also effect your PPM's. You have such a small res, so you'll need such a little amount of PH Down. I have used one of those syringes you can purchase, should be able to do 0-6ml, etc. Perhaps instead of using the PH Up, can you use regular tap water which should raise your level without having to add addtl chemicals.

SF

 

[StinkFinger]

Or use just plain RO water, I see you said it measured at 6.2....

 

[Speyedr]

Hey Speyedr.

Perhaps a tip, perhaps not. You want to try and "hit" your PH Down on your first try....Using the PH up will start to drive you mad, because it'll also effect your PPM's. You have such a small res, so you'll need such a little amount of PH Down. I have used one of those syringes you can purchase, should be able to do 0-6ml, etc. Perhaps instead of using the PH Up, can you use regular tap water which should raise your level without having to add addtl chemicals.

SF

Thanks for the tip StinkFinger. I wanted to try it wuth RO 'cause another growing using these nutes has info from the US Distributor that they are designed specifically for RO.
Also, I am using a nute schedule and not really worried about EC except as it relates to monitoring what the plants are eating.
I will definitely keep this in mind though if this round of nutes gives me trouble as well.

 

[Speyedr]

Or use just plain RO water, I see you said it measured at 6.2....

Ok, do you mean to use the water to raise the pH? Won't that water down the nutes?

 

[Retired One]

Brother, unless your tapwater comes out at <50 ppm you need to be using R/O water with the H&G nutrient line. Water quality in the Netherlands is poor and all water for consumption is required to be R/O filtered. As a result, the nutrients are made to work best in R/O water. Tap water is not advised...ask PitViper.

Personally, when I made the move to H&G line, I quit monitoring EC and started monitoring PPM, as it gave me a much clearer idea of how the plants were/are taking up the food.

I'm completely sold on H&G...so much so that I've sold off over $1000 worth of other nutrients...some unopened. Hopefully in the coming weeks and months I'll be able to test out a few products that aren't commercially available yet...unfortunately, if that plan works out, I'll not be able to expressly say what I'm using or doing, but I'm hoping for delivery of a bottle of "something" here in the next couple of weeks, that has shown some significant promise.

I'll keep a close eye out on this grow...I'm always looking for more grow documentation.

 

[StinkFinger]

Thanks for the tip StinkFinger. I wanted to try it wuth RO 'cause another growing using these nutes has info from the US Distributor that they are designed specifically for RO.
Also, I am using a nute schedule and not really worried about EC except as it relates to monitoring what the plants are eating.
I will definitely keep this in mind though if this round of nutes gives me trouble as well.

Yeah, do it RO water with H&G.

Ok, do you mean to use the water to raise the pH? Won't that water down the nutes?

Yes, meant this also. Just a little late at night when I wrote this, sorry I wasn't more clear. The comment below explained it better. It might lower you "slightly", you'll be able to judge your nute strength and plant tolerance with a little experience.

Honestly, it'll take several res changes before you get a handle on your procedure, but you'll get it dialed it. If SouthernWeed is watching, you've got a good set of eyes on your side.

Have a great day.
SF

 

[StinkFinger]

the nutrients are made to work best in R/O water. Tap water is not advised....

PS. We're not discussing whats "Safe" to drink, etc. Just what the Manufacturer stated about their nutes and what water to use.

Thanks.
SF

 

[Speyedr]

Finally got some pics together:

This is the space after the build out. Aside from the obvious I had put in some dry wall, a couple vents (one for the light, the other for the space), light proofed, fashioned a door, etc.

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This is the PC fan contraption I am using to attempt to keep the res as cool as possible. There is some porous black foam in the netcup and while the holes are rather big I wonder if it could cool better with another solution:

Here are the babies. Keep in mind they are coming up on three weeks from starting seeds. They would be doing better if not for the abuse...

The Runt:

The Rockstar - best out of two:

And last but not least the root... yes, just one that I see on the middle cup in the back (The Rockstar) you can just make it out. Hopefully more on the way now that there is no algae and they are back on nutes...

pH seems much steadier now and temp is holding @ 74f. The temp still bugs me but I'm not sure what I can do about it. Once the HID is back on the vent fan will run much more often and it might actually stay cooler...? Dillusional??


Well, 'night all.

And thanks for all of the help!

 

[Roseman]

Looks like someone swept out the trash.


Just a few suggestions, I'm just trying to be helpful.

You will have struggles with pH and Root Rot if you don't get that water temp down. You need a stronger fan pulling out heat from the grow space.

Do you have the computer fan pulling out heat or blowing in air?

Cover the tank and lid with reflective tape, or insulation tape.

Can you sit a frozen jug of ice on top of that fan, safely, so it sucks and blows cold air into the tank?

Increase the humidity by rolling up soaking wet rags like a cigar and lay them on the lid.

Get some 12 or 16 ounce styrafoam cups and fill them with water and put them on the lid and around the tank.

Freeze some gallon jugs of water and sit them touching the tank, with a small oscilating fan blowing toward them.

Hide the air pump from the Lights and heat, or it will blow hot air into the tank.

Freeze a gallon zip lock baggie full of water, but only an inch or two thick, and put it inside the tank.

Sit the tank on two 2X 4s to let air under it.

Cool the grow space and the water will get cooled too.