Sour Diesel #8 Indoor, 2x600W - Soil - FF Nutes

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

OK, I guess I'll start with how I may have gotten the PM and/or contributed to its proliferation. Here are the things that happened/changed in the past two weeks;
1) 2 weeks ago today I was at a friends for football, he has his MMJ card and some plants under a plastic sheet greenhouse. He brought me back to show me, and was all excited about this plant that 'must have White Widow genes' cause of how crazy frosty white it was. I have only seen pictures of the PM, but one look and I told him I thought it was PM. He was very convinced it was some kind of extra thc resin bleed off (?!?, yeah) and said that he has had that in the past. I ran my fingers over the top of one of the leaves (I know, stupid) and could tell that it was not sticky and not what he thought, but he wasn't having it so I let it go. Unfortunately I let it go too much and may have gone into my room when I got home, or even in the same clothes the next morn. Since I have a sealed room and carbon filters on both sides, this seems like the most probably introduction of spores (by me, the dumb-ass).
2) Right about 2 weeks ago I put the oscillating fans in the flower room on timers to shut off on lights out to try to save a little on electric. I figured with the 2nd AC unit running, one of which runs thru lights out, that was enough to keep the humidity down and keep the air circulating, plus the air flush cycle continues on 5 min intervals thru lights out, so I figured (mistakenly) that that was enough. This is now fixed and the fans stay on 24/7.
3) We have been getting a bit more rain the last couple weeks, on and off, but the tropical winter RH levels are definitely creeping up.

So considering those three factors, its not hard to see how this happened. I think if 2 was not a factor, the spores may have still gotten in there but would not have established. Like I said, I have those fans going all night now, and so far the few small spots on the leaves of some of the younger flower batch have halted their progression and even seem to have visually lost their vigor compared to two days ago. Different plants have different tolerances to PM, from what I have read cannabis can usually resist PM much better on healthy leaves. Young leaves (<3 weeks) and/or damaged spots on leaves are usually where the PM establishes and thrives.
OK, next post will be a summary of the info I've learned about PM in the last 24hrs.
Pakaloha!

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

I guess I'll first give a little of my background. I have been growing outdoors in Hawai'i since the late 80's, I mention this not to infer anything about skill, but to say that when I realized I had a PM situation starting, I quickly made a mis-association with the bud rot (aka-gray mold, botrytis) I have dealt with for the last two decades. Doing a few hours of research I saw a more clear distinction, with a ravenous beast on one side and an annoying (but controllable) pest on the other. I may still be a bit to naive, but like I said in the last post, it seems like just keeping the fans on at night may have already stopped the PM. But yeah, thats my relevant experience, my knee jerk reaction, and my current feeling.

OK, so the first couple hours after finding the PM on the plants I started doing forum searches for PM trying to figure out what to do. It pretty much seemed that everything I was reading was like Holy Crap, got PM and lost everything, or Holy Crap, got PM and killed everything and sterilized the whole room (or more, lol). There were a few people that talked about treatments with mixed results, but nothing too solid and usually followed by a reply of 'your best off just killing everything'. There may have been better postings, but I didn't find them, and didn't find mention of a couple probably/potentially effective treatments that I found elsewhere.

Then I remembered maybe having a article about organic pest control in one of my cannabis mags and searched for that. Following are the important points I got from the article-
1) PM does not live within the plant tissue, it never passes thru the top most level of epidermal cells. This is very different from botrytis (gray mold) which basically melts right thru anything it infects. PM's primary negative effects are caused by the quick spread and thickening mats that blocks light and prevents photosynthesis. It does leach nutrients from the plants cells, but not to a catastrophic end, its the light starvation that would be/is fatal. This is also important because it makes treatment easier.
2) PM needs either a wet leaf surface (I do NO foliar in flower) or fairly stagnant high humidity air pockets to establish.
3)*** Natural (unfiltered) sunlight KILLS PM. The part of the spectrum that does this is produced by HIDs elements, but unfortunately cannot pass thru the glass that houses them.
Well there you go, the easiest (relative to where/how one is growing), most natural treatment proven to destroy PM without leaving even a microgram of residue....our sun!! I sure didn't read that in any discussion. So if you have some privacy, just put 'em out in the sun and see if that doesn't make it all better. Whats more, there are light fixtures/ bulbs that do address the wavelengths needed and I even have one downstairs (I am on a rainwater catchment system, and the water passes thru both a 2 micron filter and a UV filter!!). That is in a enclosed case, so I cant use it of coarse, but guess what, dont have to 'cause now I have found hand held units that have been used in the healthcare/hospital industry for years. Simply holding the light over most any bacteria, virus, mold, or mildew for 20 seconds will destroy it. Considering the PM is surface only, it seems like using this light at first signs of PM could be a great new tool to stop it in its tracks with no negatives. I should point out that the light is potentially harmful to the eyes, but can be and is used safely every day. So, guess what I am getting in the next couple weeks...LOL!
OK, I'm gonna go ahead and post this and start a new one on more potential treatments.... but I'm already pretty set on the light treatment I think!!

 

[Tmac12]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey Van, I think your right about bringing it home with you. As well as the misfortune to change your fans at the same time.

Never been out to the islands. But we get moisture in the downstairs thru the walls. During the summer must run a dehumidifier at all times. It is a tri-level house, so part of the downstairs is under the ground. Sorta slopes. We need to figure out how to water proof it or just stop the seepage. Read everything on the internet about it but dont trust any of it, at this time. Partly is you have to do it, pay, and then find out it did not work.....

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey Van, I think your right about bringing it home with you. As well as the misfortune to change your fans at the same time.

Never been out to the islands. But we get moisture in the downstairs thru the walls. During the summer must run a dehumidifier at all times. It is a tri-level house, so part of the downstairs is under the ground. Sorta slopes. We need to figure out how to water proof it or just stop the seepage. Read everything on the internet about it but dont trust any of it, at this time. Partly is you have to do it, pay, and then find out it did not work.....

Aloha Tmac! That sounds like a real pain about your basement. Bet it stays nice and cool tho...lol!

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

OK, so I got sidetracked and now tired, so I'll follow up more on the PM in the am. Part of what sidetracked me was a clone session, gotta keep things rollin', harvest one batch and create a new one. I took pics of my clone process/technique that has been giving me 100% success on clones. I'll put that up sometime tomorrow too.
Pakaloha Y'all!

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey Brother Van
You haven't changed a bit! You have always dug for info on a major scale.
We should all thank your for your research! Well done! The answer was light! Who would have thunk it?
I also think you did bring it home with you from your Bros house! Lesson learned the hard way. But we do remember and you will know for the future.

Sorry, this whole thing happened to you, but it's in the memory bank now and will not get you again. Sunlight! Guess that's why I've never had it. Just a bit of bud rot, but nothing serious.

Thanks for your never ending help and research!

 

[Tmac12]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Aloha Tmac! That sounds like a real pain about your basement. Bet it stays nice and cool tho...lol!

We did not use the a/c at all last year. Temps always fall when the sun goes down. Open the house and get a breeze.

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey Brother Van
You haven't changed a bit! You have always dug for info on a major scale.
We should all thank your for your research! Well done! The answer was light! Who would have thunk it?
I also think you did bring it home with you from your Bros house! Lesson learned the hard way. But we do remember and you will know for the future.

Sorry, this whole thing happened to you, but it's in the memory bank now and will not get you again. Sunlight! Guess that's why I've never had it. Just a bit of bud rot, but nothing serious.

Thanks for your never ending help and research!

Mahalo my friend. I actually LOVE doing research and trying to figure things out which is probably why I was a good scientist (I was a field scientist, not lab). I guess in some ways I am happy this happened, it was exciting and made me think and research a ton, and learn a ton in the process. Of coarse, I think I am winning now, if I was losing I wouldn't be happy....lol!

Are you using anything for the bud rot or just removing? If you haven't heard of it yet, Serenade is supposed to be primo. Its an organic bio-control, the active ingredient is a bacteria called Bacillus subtilis which eats molds and fungi. I haven't used it before, but know some experts that sweat by it. I am a fan of bio-controls tho, and used Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) for worm control all of my outdoor career. Both these products can be used the same day as harvest and ingestion (not that you would ever treat/harvest/smoke ganja in the same day...lol, but just an indicator of safety that more applies to fruit and veg applications).
Thanks for always having such powerful good vibes my friend!!
Aloha

 

[Planter]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

yabro u most likely brought it home with u, pm is killer bro. if u have a micrscope and look for pm it pretty easy to tell mine had strands of hair everywhere sort of looked like furry trichs and there was abunch of white dots everywhere. pretty interesting to look at. try it next time if u get it. clean your whole room and everything that is in and on outside( if u have like a tent or something).32oz of bleach to gal of water and let it dry. stuff will be everywhere. oh ya wear a mask when u clean with this amount of bleach. messed up my throwt for like 5 days not good. lol
later mate

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

We did not use the a/c at all last year. Temps always fall when the sun goes down. Open the house and get a breeze.

I guess the grass is always greener....I want a nice cool basemet and no heat problems!! LOL
Much Aloha Tmac

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

OK, here's some more of my thoughts on PM treatments. I'll start with the only one I have experience with so far and I know can at least halt its progress and prevent new colonies.
FIX YOUR ENVIRONMENT if your humidity is at or below 55% AND you have fans blowing on your plants at all times (and good spacing to let the air thru), you dont spray water on plant surfaces (flower room), and you keep the room clean and free of dead leaves (one of the primary reasons to get those yellowed leaves off the plant ASAP), the chances of PM becoming a problem are practically nil regardless of if spores are present. Its been more than 48 hours since I fixed my environment (fans back on at night) and the PM went from spreading like wildfire to pretty much dead (or at least stasis) in its tracks. Here is a pic from this morn of a leave with about the worst/biggest PM spot which is no bigger, maybe smaller, than it was 48 hours ago-

All 8 of the girls in flower have similar or smaller spots, none of which I did anything to but leave the fans on. Also important to note is none of the plants/clones in the veg chamber have any sign of the PM, and they are in the same room breathing the same air, but they have always had a fan on them 24hrs. So basically I am thinking if you spot the PM fairly early, can figure out the problem with the environment and fix it within about 24 hours, then culling of plants shouldn't be necessary. I will be treating the PM spots on the girls today, I am not saying I put the fan back on and now I am going to forget about it, but I am happy now to have some confidence that I fixed the enviro and can move forward.
OK, this is going to be a multi-part series I guess, need a little break but plenty more info to come.

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

After debating the different treatment options I decided to go with the simplest, least expensive, most available, and what seems to me has a very reasonable chance to work given what I now know about PM and now that I feel my environment is back in order. I will be using hydrogen peroxide in a 1 to 5 solution with water and using this as a topical treatment (wiping infected leaf surfaces with a sponge of the solution). I feel this will effectively kill and remove whatever is still active on the plants without leaving a residue. I will mark the leaf that is pictured above and follow up with pics to show how this works (or doesn't). If this works it will probably top my list for any future treatment of PM provided its caught very early.

The other treatments that I would really consider trying after polling the experts I know in real life and lots of reading on the net (not in forums but actual product research)-
Safer Soap- is organic and I have heard it is effective, not too pricey, but the fact that it is sulfer based (organic or not) makes me shy away. I know that sulfer burners are used to treat rooms/plants, but there's no F...ing way I'd get into that. If it turns out sulfer is the best treatment, I'd choose Safer fungicide spray
Safer-gro- is organic and I have heard good things. This is garlic oil extract based. Its a bit pricey, but may be worth it. I'm not sure if there is any flavor/odor to it, which would be my main concern (besides effectiveness) esp. on anything getting close to harvest.
Neem Oil/Azatrol- organic and/or natural (depending on producer). Again, heard good things about effectiveness, but havent tried. Not sure of the price. Dont have any idea about smell/flavor/residue.
Serenade- This is the most heavily recommended by the best expert I know (I've referred to this person before as someone of international cannabis significance). This product falls in line with another of my favorite pest controllers (Bt) utilizing organic biological-control. The active ingredient is a bacteria called Bacillus subtilis which basically feeds on mold/mildew/fungus but is 100% harmless to us, in fact you could eat fruit or veggies the same day as application without there being any taste or or other harm. I've used Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) for over 20 years of outdoor growing to kill bud worms (constant plight outdoors here which is the leading cause of bud rot) and I swear by the stuff, so this would really be up on top of my list of things to try.
So thats my short list of tried (not by me) and recommended effective products, basically stuff I would try. Of coarse like I said in the past post, I think the first treatment should be fixing the environment which should halt the progress of the PM and give you the time to clean up your plants and room and use any other needed treatments without really stressing about losing your meds.
I am excited to try light treatments in the future, whether its sun or a lamp. I believe the science is there, but I can't take my plants outside where I am at, and getting a lamp is out of the picture for a little while, but I promise at some point to try that out (hopefully on someone else's crop...lol).
OK, now to try out the hydrogen peroxide....back in a while with update pics on yesterdays cloning.

 

[Tmac12]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

We are in a sort of valley, you drive up the road then it sorta levels off, a few houses then goes on up. We are at 3200 ft. Right now we dont see the actual sun til @9:30 am. But you can see it lighting everything up, the trees, the mountain behind us @ 4200ft. The edge of light creeps down!
It is 7 miles down the road to town.

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

We are in a sort of valley, you drive up the road then it sorta levels off, a few houses then goes on up. We are at 3200 ft. Right now we dont see the actual sun til @9:30 am. But you can see it lighting everything up, the trees, the mountain behind us @ 4200ft. The edge of light creeps down!
It is 7 miles down the road to town.

That actually sounds really nice, must be beautiful. I love the rural lifestyle!!

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Mahalo my friend. I actually LOVE doing research and trying to figure things out which is probably why I was a good scientist (I was a field scientist, not lab). I guess in some ways I am happy this happened, it was exciting and made me think and research a ton, and learn a ton in the process. Of coarse, I think I am winning now, if I was losing I wouldn't be happy....lol!

Are you using anything for the bud rot or just removing? If you haven't heard of it yet, Serenade is supposed to be primo. Its an organic bio-control, the active ingredient is a bacteria called Bacillus subtilis which eats molds and fungi. I haven't used it before, but know some experts that sweat by it. I am a fan of bio-controls tho, and used Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) for worm control all of my outdoor career. Both these products can be used the same day as harvest and ingestion (not that you would ever treat/harvest/smoke ganja in the same day...lol, but just an indicator of safety that more applies to fruit and veg applications).
Thanks for always having such powerful good vibes my friend!!
Aloha

Thanks Bro.
Didn't have much rot, But it was on my Columbian Gold!! Dang it! Will look for
Serenade. Found Bud Rot Stop But it was in Britain and they did not ship to the US.
Haven't had worms,,,,,yet, but was eaten alive by leaf miners last grow.
Have many plans that are going stop all that crap. Won't be a living insect anywhere in the yard. Waiting until I feel a bit better before I do it though.
Have to recharge the old body with a bit of rest!

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Haven't had worms,,,,,yet

not to doubt you, but are you sure? nothing gets away without bud worms on my island, and its hard to believe they are here and not there. they are really well camo'd green little worms that are usually at the root of most all bud rot here provided you keep the plant free of dead leaves. lots of times the only way you know you have them is by finding the tiny little brown specks (poop) that usually show up about a week before the rot does.

Have many plans that are going stop all that crap. Won't be a living insect anywhere in the yard.

Oh brother, you don't want to tell me stuff like that unless you want a real lecture....LOL!! I'm a biologist with experience in ecology, and entomology has always been of interest to me...so its hard for me to hold back. Let me paint you a short anology- you are trying to sanitize a contaminated river where it enters the sea, why, because there is no hope of treating the source. I understand the reaction, but its a battle you can never win. You are much better off targeting what you need to deal with and wage a smaller, but still constant, war. Thats growing outdoors in Hawaii, maybe anywhere. And not only is it a losing battle, fighting them all, but just like in your grow medium, your plants, your body for that matter, biotics are crucial for health. There may be some bad bugs out there, but they may be outnumbered by 98 to 1 by the beneficials. Also remember that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Sorry, thats it. Now you know not to tell me that...LOL!

 

[OldMedMan]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

not to doubt you, but are you sure? nothing gets away without bud worms on my island, and its hard to believe they are here and not there. they are really well camo'd green little worms that are usually at the root of most all bud rot here provided you keep the plant free of dead leaves. lots of times the only way you know you have them is by finding the tiny little brown specks (poop) that usually show up about a week before the rot does.



Oh brother, you don't want to tell me stuff like that unless you want a real lecture....LOL!! I'm a biologist with experience in ecology, and entomology has always been of interest to me...so its hard for me to hold back. Let me paint you a short anology- you are trying to sanitize a contaminated river where it enters the sea, why, because there is no hope of treating the source. I understand the reaction, but its a battle you can never win. You are much better off targeting what you need to deal with and wage a smaller, but still constant, war. Thats growing outdoors in Hawaii, maybe anywhere. And not only is it a losing battle, fighting them all, but just like in your grow medium, your plants, your body for that matter, biotics are crucial for health. There may be some bad bugs out there, but they may be outnumbered by 98 to 1 by the beneficials. Also remember that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Sorry, thats it. Now you know not to tell me that...LOL!

I stand corrected then My friend! Actually, here's what I am/was planing.
Remove most of the grass where I actually grow....not the whole yard..I tend to go over board sometimes. Tell me what you think of this. I'll remove the grass only where I grow. Then I'm going to dust that area with dichotomous soil. That is supposed to kill all crawly insects, like mites, worms, centipedes , and the like. I don't actually put my plants on the ground, but on raised boards. They are usually 10 inches off the ground. The plants are in airpots. I feed the girls Asamax with their watering, this doesn't kill bugs, just repels them. I spray with neem oil and and try to at least kill whatever is on the leaves. My last grow was the only one I ever had problems with. My thinking is to kill the bugs before they ever get to my plants. So what you think Bro? I hope it's something that works better than my plan and is easier to do. Mahalo.

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

diatomaceous soil?

 

[MountainHigh]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey hope you don't mind a few thoughts on that PM...used to see it alot at my providers (work up there frequently) and when he gets it he breaks out the burner and just burns sulfur as he found anything he sprayed that had water no matter how "effective" it is touted to be usually spread the problem or made it worse. (Do not use Neem and Sulfur together or any oil based product where the sulfur can concentrate in an oil)

*He never tried those bacterial products so no clue if they work or not.

Biggest problem is trying to treat it when the conditions for it are IDEAL.

If you get those tiny black dots in the PM (think they are much like tiny mushrooms with the spore sacs etc.)...those are a survival mechanism for PM and they will survive almost anything wet and anchor well and will pop and reinfect next time the conditions are right. The sulfur that falls on the leaves makes a reactive surface on the leaves themselves so when the plant transpires it makes an unfriendly environment for the PM all the time...and more importantly since it is more or less a gas, it has much better coverage than you can get by hand or a sprayer.

He burns for 4 days or something like that...I might go a week though to catch all those later outbreaks...but be warned it will flavor the pot even if they say it wears off after two weeks of not burning it...nope, not to me anyway. (How can it unstick itself from the trichomes?)

Maybe your native strain of PM there isn't as hardcore as it is here, but ours (dry climate), when it latches on, it is a devil to get rid of...I lost fighting it in my garden and decided to pull my zucchini plant and cucumber plant as nothing I did would ever beat it...it would die off and then return with a vengeance.

The PM weakens the plant as it eats its nutrients and slowly robs the plant of strength to fight the infection...just nasty stuff.

Good luck brother, fight that stuff and win!!!

And as far as bugs go...that whole natural synergy stuff can keep its little nasty crawly butt outside... I assassinate every single bug I see.

Just my thoughts...

brother.

 

[Van Diesel]

Re: Sour Diesel #8 indoor, 2x600w, soil, FF nutes

Hey hope you don't mind a few thoughts on that PM...used to see it alot at my providers (work up there frequently) and when he gets it he breaks out the burner and just burns sulfur as he found anything he sprayed that had water no matter how "effective" it is touted to be usually spread the problem or made it worse. (Do not use Neem and Sulfur together or any oil based product where the sulfur can concentrate in an oil)

*He never tried those bacterial products so no clue if they work or not.

Biggest problem is trying to treat it when the conditions for it are IDEAL.

If you get those tiny black dots in the PM (think they are much like tiny mushrooms with the spore sacs etc.)...those are a survival mechanism for PM and they will survive almost anything wet and anchor well and will pop and reinfect next time the conditions are right. The sulfur that falls on the leaves makes a reactive surface on the leaves themselves so when the plant transpires it makes an unfriendly environment for the PM all the time...and more importantly since it is more or less a gas, it has much better coverage than you can get by hand or a sprayer.

He burns for 4 days or something like that...I might go a week though to catch all those later outbreaks...but be warned it will flavor the pot even if they say it wears off after two weeks of not burning it...nope, not to me anyway. (How can it unstick itself from the trichomes?)

Maybe your native strain of PM there isn't as hardcore as it is here, but ours (dry climate), when it latches on, it is a devil to get rid of...I lost fighting it in my garden and decided to pull my zucchini plant and cucumber plant as nothing I did would ever beat it...it would die off and then return with a vengeance.

The PM weakens the plant as it eats its nutrients and slowly robs the plant of strength to fight the infection...just nasty stuff.

Good luck brother, fight that stuff and win!!!

And as far as bugs go...that whole natural synergy stuff can keep its little nasty crawly butt outside... I assassinate every single bug I see.

Just my thoughts...

brother.

No way bro, love any and all input!! So thank you!
I did read up on the sulfur burners and I just dont think I could do that. Maybe in part because I live near constant semi-hazardous sulfur emissions and have to breath that stuff enough as it is...lol. Hey, I should just take 'em down to the volcano, right...lol! wouldn't that be cool, but no can. For now, it was a real easy fix for the environment and staying on top of that is easier than anything else. So far the flowering plants that I wiped the PM off with the hydrogen peroxide solution yesterday dont have any sign of new growth, and the leaves handled the solution well it seems (figured they would). Today I'll finish wiping the others. Still no PM evident on anything in veg. Didn't ever see the black dots, I was actually kind of watching for that.

I suppose its entirely possible we have different sub-strains each with their own respective resistances and resiliency, very possible and that should fully be noted by anyone reading this trying to figure out their approach.

I agree with your keep the bugs outside and kill anything that comes close to my girls, thats exactly why I made the move indoors after so many years. I guess I was saying as far as outdoors (maybe esp. in HI) its better to wage the small battles rather than an all out war considering the sheer bio-mass not to mention their diversity. For the critters that really are the threat to pakalolo, there is the right product of treatment available, but it does take time to figure out what the best is thru a mess of info, then to figure out how exactly to use it right.

Much aloha brother, really glad you come by, and thanks again for the info!!