Some Advice, Pretty Please? AK47 & Jack

HopHead said:
How is the one that was transplanted doing? There appear to be lots of healthy roots and the soil looked pretty dry, at least where it touches the peat pot.
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they really aren't doing much, if anything. the leaves haven't picked up much (still pointing downward) and they certainly haven't picked up in terms of growing. There are some new leaves under the tiny canopy, but everything is in miniature. I clipped some dying leaves off, have kept the watering to a more reasonable level, and although I didn't reduce the light timing, I pulled the light up a few inches. I kept a few of the others in the original pots and have been giving small drinks. I even put one of them outside just to see how it fairs. ;-)

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@Emilya is probably your best source to get back on track... or tell you to throw in the towel.
 
I wouldnt call it quits yet... you got to learn how to water at some point or this is going to be the result of every seed you germinate.

Stop watering so often... the "small drinks" you are giving are killing them. PLease look up the Lift the Pot method or buy a postal scale... it is imperative to let those roots at the very bottom of the container dry out... in between EVERY watering.
 
Agreed and I hear you! Yes, I've been lifting those pots - it has been my only exercise as of late. ;-) What I meant by small drinks is when I feel like the pot is very light (every 2 or 3 days at most) I will give a small drink - quite far from the point of run off as I was doing before. Postal scale is brilliant! I still don't quite understand how dry is dry. Even with weighing My humidity is on the lower side and with air movement, things dry out quite a bit. I do fear that the peat is holding more water than plastic would. I certainly did fall prey to the "Just as bad as these over-thinkers are the tomato gardeners, the "stick your finger in the ground" crowd, who proclaim: it's time to water when it is dry below the second knuckle" as you so aptly put it. If you have a second, could you look at the photos above of the roots - I think it was a symptom of your: "If you just give a small amount every couple of days, that water will drop right to the bottom of the container. Your roots will follow, and will cluster on the bottom, instead of growing laterally throughout the container, and since they continually sit in the nutrient rich water, the plant sees little need to grow additional roots." I know you were writing about much larger pots, but any (more) feedback on my particular situation would be welcome. Thank you again!
 
@gratefulredhead, please don't be afraid of watering to runoff. It is impossible to overwater by giving too much water at one session, such as watering to runoff... the soil can only hold so much water and then any extra simply falls out of the bottom drainage holes. The ONLY way to overwater is by watering too often, and your little drinks are doing that.

Water to runoff when you do water, and then leave them alone until they can drain that water. Do NOT give extra drinks. These are weeds... they need the adversity in order to thrive. Your kind little drinks are the problem. And, no, I was not talking about larger pots... these techniques are especially valid in the small starter sized cups that we use because this is the point where we are constricting the roots the most, and where we have the most influence on how fast they grow.

Stop thinking about the peat or plastic or even cloth containers being the key to this. The soil doesn't just dry out. Prove this by watering a container with no plant in it, just soil. See how long it takes that container to dry out... it can take weeks. You will prove to yourself that it is the plants that drain the water from the soil and how fast it happens has everything to do with the strength of the roots, not your local humidity or type of container or soil that you are in.
 
gratefulredhead said:
they really aren't doing much, if anything. the leaves haven't picked up much (still pointing downward) and they certainly haven't picked up in terms of growing. There are some new leaves under the tiny canopy, but everything is in miniature. I clipped some dying leaves off, have kept the watering to a more reasonable level, and although I didn't reduce the light timing, I pulled the light up a few inches. I kept a few of the others in the original pots and have been giving small drinks. I even put one of them outside just to see how it fairs. ;-)

December27a.jpeg


December27b.jpeg


December27c.jpeg
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This gives me some optimism. I was afraid the plants would be past the point of no return and continue to decline which is often the case. It sounds like they're holding on. You may be expecting too much too fast. Their recovery will take time, likely weeks. The small signs of improvement will be visible if you pay attention to the newest emerging leaves, the tiniest, newest leaves. When they start to grow the slightest amount then the plant will be coming out of shock and starting to grow. Expect the growth to be slow until they fully recover.

It is counterintuitive to not water a plant but that is required if there is any wet soil in the pot. The surface may be dry but the center and bottom of the pot may be wet. Further watering will dampen the surface and keep the center and bottom wet and rot is likely to kill the plant. It sounds like you want to water the plants daily and that is probably the problem. When a plant fills its pot with roots and becomes pot bound in need of a larger pot then they can drink every day because the pot is as light as a feature 24 hrs after a thorough watering. That's not the case here. First, they are in shock and not taking up much water because they are not growing. They are trying to stabilize and stay alive. I am presently using a 430 watt HPS and keep it about 16- 24" above the plant canopy. With plants in this condition I would double that distance and monitor whether it is enough. I would want to eliminate any undue stress. The plant wants to respond to the light by keeping the leaves feed with water, nutrients etc. These plants can't do that so the light intensity should be reduced for now. For an outdoor plant shade would be prescribed. When the new growth as described earlier occurs then I would start to bring the light closer and thus increase the intensity. But, I would do that slowly and cautiously. A flourescent light would be enough light at this point. So, patience is the prescription for the grower and time for the plants.

Looking at these latest pictures gives me hope. They have a ways to go but they may turn out okay if you hold back on the watering. It is far better to underwater than to overwater. Underwatering results in leaves that are limp and hanging and quite alarming to the inexperienced. A thorough water quickly brings the plant back to its former healthy self. Underwatering, will be stressful to the plant and not desirable but not deadly unless it isn't answered with a watering. Overwatering on the other hand as you can attest to is a lot more serious.

As the plants begin to improve you can position the healthier plants so they receive more light while the sicker ones keep a safe distance away. I wouldn't alter the light timing, just the intensity.
 
Emilya said:
@gratefulredhead, please don't be afraid of watering to runoff. It is impossible to overwater by giving too much water at one session, such as watering to runoff... the soil can only hold so much water and then any extra simply falls out of the bottom drainage holes. The ONLY way to overwater is by watering too often, and your little drinks are doing that.

Water to runoff when you do water, and then leave them alone until they can drain that water. Do NOT give extra drinks. These are weeds... they need the adversity in order to thrive. Your kind little drinks are the problem. And, no, I was not talking about larger pots... these techniques are especially valid in the small starter sized cups that we use because this is the point where we are constricting the roots the most, and where we have the most influence on how fast they grow.

Stop thinking about the peat or plastic or even cloth containers being the key to this. The soil doesn't just dry out. Prove this by watering a container with no plant in it, just soil. See how long it takes that container to dry out... it can take weeks. You will prove to yourself that it is the plants that drain the water from the soil and how fast it happens has everything to do with the strength of the roots, not your local humidity or type of container or soil that you are in. Ok @gratefulredhead, please don't be afraid of watering to runoff. It is impossible to overwater by giving too much water at one session, such as watering to runoff... the soil can only hold so much water and then any extra simply falls out of the bottom drainage holes. The ONLY way to overwater is by watering too often, and your little drinks are doing that.
Click to expand...
Emilya said:
Water to runoff when you do water, and then leave them alone until they can drain that water. Do NOT give extra drinks. These are weeds... they need the adversity in order to thrive. Your kind little drinks are the problem. And, no, I was not talking about larger pots... these techniques are especially valid in the small starter sized cups that we use because this is the point where we are constricting the roots the most, and where we have the most influence on how fast they grow.

Stop thinking about the peat or plastic or even cloth containers being the key to this. The soil doesn't just dry out. Prove this by watering a container with no plant in it, just soil. See how long it takes that container to dry out... it can take weeks. You will prove to yourself that it is the plants that drain the water from the soil and how fast it happens has everything to do with the strength of the roots, not your local humidity or type of container or soil that you are in.
Click to expand...
great advice again - thanks. Curious about your opinion on the following. The very droopy lady below - no water for 3-4 days - trying to follow advice. The other that seems to be perking up - drink more recently. What do your experienced eyes tell you?

60C04517-BE24-4489-BAC3-055F383D909E.jpeg


5E02988F-5813-4DA6-800B-8E9F51E271D1.jpeg
 
HopHead said:
This gives me some optimism. I was afraid the plants would be past the point of no return and continue to decline which is often the case. It sounds like they're holding on. You may be expecting too much too fast. Their recovery will take time, likely weeks. The small signs of improvement will be visible if you pay attention to the newest emerging leaves, the tiniest, newest leaves. When they start to grow the slightest amount then the plant will be coming out of shock and starting to grow. Expect the growth to be slow until they fully recover.

It is counterintuitive to not water a plant but that is required if there is any wet soil in the pot. The surface may be dry but the center and bottom of the pot may be wet. Further watering will dampen the surface and keep the center and bottom wet and rot is likely to kill the plant. It sounds like you want to water the plants daily and that is probably the problem. When a plant fills its pot with roots and becomes pot bound in need of a larger pot then they can drink every day because the pot is as light as a feature 24 hrs after a thorough watering. That's not the case here. First, they are in shock and not taking up much water because they are not growing. They are trying to stabilize and stay alive. I am presently using a 430 watt HPS and keep it about 16- 24" above the plant canopy. With plants in this condition I would double that distance and monitor whether it is enough. I would want to eliminate any undue stress. The plant wants to respond to the light by keeping the leaves feed with water, nutrients etc. These plants can't do that so the light intensity should be reduced for now. For an outdoor plant shade would be prescribed. When the new growth as described earlier occurs then I would start to bring the light closer and thus increase the intensity. But, I would do that slowly and cautiously. A flourescent light would be enough light at this point. So, patience is the prescription for the grower and time for the plants.

Looking at these latest pictures gives me hope. They have a ways to go but they may turn out okay if you hold back on the watering. It is far better to underwater than to overwater. Underwatering results in leaves that are limp and hanging and quite alarming to the inexperienced. A thorough water quickly brings the plant back to its former healthy self. Underwatering, will be stressful to the plant and not desirable but not deadly unless it isn't answered with a watering. Overwatering on the other hand as you can attest to is a lot more serious.

As the plants begin to improve you can position the healthier plants so they receive more light while the sicker ones keep a safe distance away. I wouldn't alter the light timing, just the intensity.
Click to expand...
You thinking about 50 percent??
 
Emilya said:
I wouldnt call it quits yet... you got to learn how to water at some point or this is going to be the result of every seed you germinate.

Stop watering so often... the "small drinks" you are giving are killing them. PLease look up the Lift the Pot method or buy a postal scale... it is imperative to let those roots at the very bottom of the container dry out... in between EVERY watering.
Click to expand...
I am so happy I listened to Emilya and others on the site on how to water properly now I got the hang of it!
 
gratefulredhead said:
great advice again - thanks. Curious about your opinion on the following. The very droopy lady below - no water for 3-4 days - trying to follow advice. The other that seems to be perking up - drink more recently. What do your experienced eyes tell you?

60C04517-BE24-4489-BAC3-055F383D909E.jpeg


5E02988F-5813-4DA6-800B-8E9F51E271D1.jpeg
Click to expand...
This is a plant who is dying because its lower roots have totally shut off, if not died. The only active roots it has right now are those in the top of the container, but it is these that can be used to bring this plant back.

Start using a mister to water this plant, giving only enough water to saturate the top couple of inches, once a day. Let the bottom of the container dry out and don't think about watering the entire container until it does. Feed the plant through those top roots every 3 days or so, until the plant starts coming back and throwing out some new growth.

When the plant is finally able to drain this container of all water, water again, to saturation, and every 3 days until it is able to once again drain the entire container, water the top roots and the outside edges, trying hard to only use enough water to seep in a couple of inches deep.

Keep this up until the plant is starting to use up the water in a couple of days, and then stop the two stage watering and simply water the container properly to saturation each time the plant drains the pot. When it can finally do this in about a day, transplant it to a larger pot and start building your rootball in there.

This is the beauty of a photoperiod plant.... a mistake like this can be recovered from and at the most you will lose a bit of time, but in return you will gain a whole lot of experience!
 
Emilya said:
This is a plant who is dying because its lower roots have totally shut off, if not died. The only active roots it has right now are those in the top of the container, but it is these that can be used to bring this plant back.

Start using a mister to water this plant, giving only enough water to saturate the top couple of inches, once a day. Let the bottom of the container dry out and don't think about watering the entire container until it does. Feed the plant through those top roots every 3 days or so, until the plant starts coming back and throwing out some new growth.

When the plant is finally able to drain this container of all water, water again, to saturation, and every 3 days until it is able to once again drain the entire container, water the top roots and the outside edges, trying hard to only use enough water to seep in a couple of inches deep.

Keep this up until the plant is starting to use up the water in a couple of days, and then stop the two stage watering and simply water the container properly to saturation each time the plant drains the pot. When it can finally do this in about a day, transplant it to a larger pot and start building your rootball in there.

This is the beauty of a photoperiod plant.... a mistake like this can be recovered from and at the most you will lose a bit of time, but in return you will gain a whole lot of experience!
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Oh dear. Did you miss the fact that these were autos? I am beginning to think my next try should NOT be autos...
 
gratefulredhead said:
50 percent on the light.
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Yes, and I would monitor watching those tiny emerging leaves to see if there is any growth. What they do will indicate what you should do next. I would be looking for growth, for some movement. It may be very slow and it may take awhile or you may see increased growth rate. I would want to see improvement before increasing the intensity. So, one scenario might be plants that show improvement placed directly under the center of the grow area and the sicker ones on the periphery getting less intensity. That way you could increase intensity for some and not for others.

I'm not sure what your on/off schedule is regarding light timing. Because they're autos lengthening the on time might help the end product. I'm a firm believer that plants should sleep but one thing to consider is that the auto comes from ruderalis which is a species of cannabis from the far north, the 'land of the midnight sun' so under these circumstances I might consider a 20 hour on time. Worth thinking about. If I did that I would pay particular attention to any negative developments in the health of the plants. I don't expect any but I would watch for any negative sign. I know some people will grow plants with 24 hrs of on time and no off time for at least a part of their grow. They don't say there's any negativity. It's something to think about.
 
I figured I would post this here for you @gratefulredhead instead of in a message in case anyone else from AZ has other outdoor growing suggestions or wants an idea on how to take advantage of the 2 outdoor grow seasons we have here.

Like Buds said, steer clear of growing from May to September if you live in the really hot parts of AZ. I managed to grow some autos outside in June and July this year. They were sunburnt, crispy, and had very airy buds. That was with misters and a shade canopy, not worth it to try again in my opinion.

For photo period seeds, I'm actually starting my spring plants indoors right now. I'll veg them inside until February when I will bring them outside to flower (usually refered to as a spring light deprivation grow). This fall I did the same, I started the plants indoors and vegged them until September when I will took them outside to flower. You'll want your photo period plants outside to start flowering by early February or by the end of September. If you wait too long in the spring the increased light as you get towards summer will mess with your plants and you may have to do some sort of light deprivation to get them to finish without becoming hermies or revealing. If you wait too long in the fall (like I did this year because of the heat that never ended) you'll end up too far into December with the cold and limited light.

Auto flowering strains I would look at the seed to harvest time the breeder gives and add 2 weeks to it. For spring planting, I wouldn't advise going past May 1. I would calculate using the growing time of the plant to find when to plant the seeds. So for example you have a 65 day seed to harvest autoflowering seed, add 2 weeks as a buffer, which gives you approximately 11 weeks of growing. So 11 weeks backwards from May 1 would put you right around Valentines Day to plant your autos outside at the latest. For fall, I like to plant around Labor Day. Usually by then things are cooling off and it keeps you from harvesting too far into December.

I hope this helps give you an idea of growing outside down here. Having 2 flowering seasons is great you just need to know how to take advantage of it.
 
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