CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
This feels like this is a big difference for a S1. Any thoughts from someone who's selfed before
S1 stability
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Fuzzy Duck
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What's a S1 ?
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
It's a female that's been crossed with it's self. Example- Mom and dad make Jane and Dick on a drunk night...if Dick and Jane have kids those are F2's...Now if Mom and Mom have babies...S1...If Dick and Mom have kids...BX1....I have a question though for the breeders...Is Jane and Jane still a S1?
Sueet
Well-Known Member
I'm not a breeder, but that makes sense to me that it should be S1 for jane x jane. My reasoning is that... Jane has become (a) mom at that point.
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
My guess was that by default Jane x Jane couldn't be a s2 as that would be the S1 selfed. Maybe Jane X Jane is a V1?
Seems like not everyone uses same terminology, what a surprise 
makes it more complicated.
If jane and jane from same batch of seeds then I think they refer to that as a backcross or an IBL (in bred line), I've seen both terms used for from what I can gather is the same thing (unless IBL means same strain but not from same batch of seeds). Not sure if you lose stability smiliar to an F1 more stable than an F2 until best plants chosen and back crossed with same. May be different with selfted/Fem seeds though I don't know.
makes it more complicated.If jane and jane from same batch of seeds then I think they refer to that as a backcross or an IBL (in bred line), I've seen both terms used for from what I can gather is the same thing (unless IBL means same strain but not from same batch of seeds). Not sure if you lose stability smiliar to an F1 more stable than an F2 until best plants chosen and back crossed with same. May be different with selfted/Fem seeds though I don't know.
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
A backcross has to go back to a P1 or a parent. I'm pretty sure a IBL doesn't start until around F5...much like a dog breed.Seems like not everyone uses same terminology, what a surprise
If jane and jane from same batch of seeds then I think they refer to that as a backcross or an IBL (in bred line), I've seen both terms used for from what I can gather is the same thing (unless IBL means same strain but not from same batch of seeds). Not sure if you lose stability smiliar to an F1 more stable than an F2 until best plants chosen and back crossed with same. May be different with selfted/Fem seeds though I don't know.
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
For clarification Stability just means most seeds will come out looking like the parent...If mom is a red head and dad is a blonde some kids will be red heads some blonde and some mixed...I want all red heads ....we get that by breeding red head daughter to red head son(F2)
....we get that by breeding red head daughter to red head son(F2)
Mudballs
Well-Known Member
This feels like this is a big difference for a S1. Any thoughts from someone who's selfed before
did you just bait everyone to post, only to tell them what they're supposed to think?
did you just bait everyone to post, only to tell them what they're supposed to think?
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
Nope.
If Jane impregnated herself several times the offspring would all be S1, and would all be different as they're getting different mixes of her DNA. If she has brown eyes but has the recessive blue eyed gene, some of them would have blue eyes, some would have brown eyes with the recessive blue eyed gene, and some would have brown eyes without the recessive gene.
Other traits would show up in different mixes as well.
Other traits would show up in different mixes as well.
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
So from my understanding the whole reason breeders started selfing was to cut the time in a third that it took to get to the stability of a IBL. Would the pic I posted be consistent with a F6 run? That much variation? Thanks
Depends how far they were able to stabilize the strain, but sure. There are fairly old strains that have multiple known phenotypes.So from my understanding the whole reason breeders started selfing was to cut the time in a third that it took to get to the stability of a IBL. Would the pic I posted be consistent with a F6 run? That much variation? Thanks
How stable are S1's? I have grown out a few without them herming. I have 1 going now that looks great, short 16 day veg.
Would S1's be considered stable enough to offer to friends? I don't want to give away potential problems. It would be a real shame to grow out a problem plant. Thanks
Would S1's be considered stable enough to offer to friends? I don't want to give away potential problems. It would be a real shame to grow out a problem plant. Thanks
LINK
Great podcast on this topic. S1 won't give you clone like similarities. You will get a re-shuffling of the selfed plants genes, and still need to pheno hunt. You'll get more stability at s3.
Great podcast on this topic. S1 won't give you clone like similarities. You will get a re-shuffling of the selfed plants genes, and still need to pheno hunt. You'll get more stability at s3.
Mudballs
Well-Known Member
That's 2 "stability" definitions being discussed.
1) stability in pheno uniformity
2) stability in intersex trait sensitivity (hermie)
Hermie stability can be thought of as separate from the Selfing @stinker
Just want that clarified. Selfing doesn't necessarily change the tendency to hermie.
1) stability in pheno uniformity
2) stability in intersex trait sensitivity (hermie)
Hermie stability can be thought of as separate from the Selfing @stinker
Just want that clarified. Selfing doesn't necessarily change the tendency to hermie.
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CelestialNurseries
Well-Known Member
Going to wait for work tomorrow to listen. Will take up a good 3 hour block!!
Aloha Braddah, thanks for the link.
I thought that beans that were selfed had a higher predisposition to herm. I have grown out a few S1's and they didn't herm. I have some concerns as I was getting ready to give some S1's away and would hate to give away what could be problematic. Are they generally safe?
I think when you self a plant it's comparable to going back a generation on the mother side. That mother plant might not be at all like the father was but if you inbred the line for several generations she could be and then that S1 would be similar to the plant you selfed. I might be wrong.
But curious... When you buy feminized seeds of a F1 cross, it's probably the same situation isn't it? A lot of crosses are just F1s... and if so, wouldn't it be safe to say that the majority of feminized seeds aren't a true representation of the strain they're meant to be because they didn't go through the IBL and selection process? It would also be true for S1s of most clone only strains.
But curious... When you buy feminized seeds of a F1 cross, it's probably the same situation isn't it? A lot of crosses are just F1s... and if so, wouldn't it be safe to say that the majority of feminized seeds aren't a true representation of the strain they're meant to be because they didn't go through the IBL and selection process? It would also be true for S1s of most clone only strains.
Only if you're selfing a plant that was already prone to herming.
Mudballs
Well-Known Member
yes, it's fine. and if your friends report nanners or sacks you can ask them about their environment before they start blaming the breeder or you. crazy powerful lights, high octane nute regiment, small pot sizes...yeah you might see a nanner, but it wasn't cuz the plant was selfed.
